Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

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WalkInLight

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From the OP.

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?

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There is a real contradiction in Christian thought.

Eternity will be a few saved righteous people, over looking billions in eternal torment in Hell.

Where is love and loving God in this? Where is consistency between old and new testaments?

In the old testament evil men are destroyed and not remembered. Simple.
All their goods are destroyed and burnt or if they are not too evil, taken by others.

Along came intimidation and exploitation. You are about to die, and be doomed to eternal torment
so buy you way out by giving to the church, doing penance, showing you will balance out the evil
with good behaviour today. The bigger the torment the bigger the fear and the payment return.

It was such a good story, bishops were wealthy powerful people who ruled whole areas.

The problem with following Jesus is it is about repentance and love, living and simple life and helping
others, not exactly something you can exploit or take advantage of. It is little wonder those who knew
scripture persecuted and killed those heretics who preached what the Lord actually said and intended.

Hell has also a massive problem. If life starts are conception, then unborn children are eternal in torment
for something they never did or could even know about. It becomes absolutely absurd unless you begin
with a mortal spirit that is fully developed put within a body. If you remove perception from the equation
and start to talk about salvation is perceived relationship with the Father is eternal life and the rest is
eternal extinction, the parables of wheat and chaff make sense.

Interestingly the beginning of life from conception to birth is a good example of our life dilemma. Where
does the rights of the mother begin and end and that of their baby? A simple line is when the baby can
survive is born, and anything before that is the mothers body and up to them. The pressure to call abortion
murder is provocative and justifies violence of one group against another, when the question is of life and
survival of both mother and child. And the problem is at a society that fails to love both, in a real understanding
way when pornography and sexual immorality is rife and causing great harm to all concerned.

But it is always easier to shout headlines and get angry and condemn the evil sinners who dare to preach against
our chosen views? They should rot in hell and we will put them there. Do you feel the anger and contempt, and
total abandonment of responsibility or empathy. In the reformation 25% of Europe died, because these words
and ideas linked to brutal behaviour created real hatred and anger which is seen in some communities even to
this day.

I find it interesting some who claim they are saved through grace no matter their lack of repentance and love,
where prepared to see me killed because I disagreed with their views. These are not empty ideas as we can
hear right wing groups calling for violence and action. God bless you
 
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St. SteVen

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Hell has also a massive problem. If life starts are conception, then unborn children are eternal in torment
for something they never did or could even know about. It becomes absolutely absurd unless you begin
with a mortal spirit that is fully developed put within a body. If you remove perception from the equation
and start to talk about salvation is perceived relationship with the Father is eternal life and the rest is
eternal extinction, the parables of wheat and chaff make sense.
Great post, thanks.
This paragraph caught my attention enough to comment on.

The hard-line belief about what constitutes salvation comes unraveled
with all the caveats that need to be addressed.

- What about aborted children?
- What about children below "the age of accountability"?
- What about those who never heard the gospel?
- What about those same ones who lived a righteous life?
- What about death-bed "conversions" of the wicked?

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RedFan

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Great post, thanks.
This paragraph caught my attention enough to comment on.

The hard-line belief about what constitutes salvation comes unraveled
with all the caveats that need to be addressed.

- What about aborted children?
- What about children below "the age of accountability"?
- What about those who never heard the gospel?
- What about those same ones who lived a righteous life?
- What about death-bed "conversions" of the wicked?

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All good questions to ask. Let me comment on the first two:

The concept of "original sin" inherited from Adam as part of the human condition (to be distinguished from "actual sin," the product of our free will choices) is all that could apply to a child in the womb or below the age of accountability. And our human notions of justice naturally recoil at the thought of punishing an innocent for some ancestral sin. But God's notion of justice differs from human notions. Even though God enjoins the opposite on us (Deut. 24:16), it seems that God is not skittish about punishing children and grandchildren for the actual sins of the father (Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9; but see Ezek. 18:20). Punishment of innocent children for original sin is somewhat the same. In short, the descendants’ individual actions are not God’s only standard for the imposition of punishment.

The Judeo-Christian world has struggled with this problem ever since the Torah was written. It was an issue even in Jesus’ time. John 9:2 recounts “His disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’” The question would never have occurred to the disciples if punishment for parental sin were not a common presumption of the time.

So sinfulness being transmitted in the semen is a head-scratcher for me. But so is the converse idea of holiness being genetically transmitted, a la 1 Cor. 7:14, where Paul suggests in the mixed-marriage context that an unbelieving partner is made holy by his or her believing partner, and that the children of the union are likewise holy! That one deserves its own thread, I think.
 
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St. SteVen

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All good questions to ask. Let me comment on the first two:
Fantastic post, thanks!
The issues surrounding salvation, from the biblical standpoint, are MUCH more complex
than the binary conclusions that Christianity declares. Good questions, as you say.
This scripture below opens an interesting view into the possibilities.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

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Dan Clarkston

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There is a real contradiction in Christian thought.


Yes, those that allow the devil to teach them some things in God's Word are not true.

The Lord has no contradictions in Him, those being led by the Holy Spirit don't either because they accept what the Lord says in His Word.


Where is love and loving God in this?


He provided opportunity for all to be saved and they decided living for the world was best for them so they rejected God.


unborn children are eternal in torment
for something they never did or could even know about.


That's false doctrine so no need to worry about children going to hell because they do not.


we will put them there.


No, those in hell are responsible for themselves being there.

God does not send anyone to hell that has no had opportunity to accept Him.
They chose to reject living for Him, so they get the devil's reward.




as we can
hear right wing groups calling for violence and action.


If you think the right wing groups are bad, you should her what the left wing groups are planning!

The left are the globalists that will bring forth one world government and their father satan will personally possess the anti-christ when he comes on the scene.

These are the crazy people that say the world's population must be brought down to 500 people meaning that are calling for the mass murder of billions of people.

Some think these leftist gloabilists should be stopped and that's why they are on the right



- What about aborted children?
- What about children below "the age of accountability"?
- What about those who never heard the gospel?
- What about those same ones who lived a righteous life?
- What about death-bed "conversions" of the wicked?


Those that know God is fair and just and that accept the whole counsel of the Lord's Word don't have these questions because they see the answers in God's Word.
 

simplefaith1

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That's a popular opinion. Are you familiar with the three views of hell?


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No, I personally like the one I heard a minister state: ''Hell is a place where God's presence does not exist'' That would be a place of anguish in my view, a place of never ending torment, or a lake of fire if you like
 

St. SteVen

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No, I personally like the one I heard a minister state: ''Hell is a place where God's presence does not exist'' That would be a place of anguish in my view, a place of never ending torment, or a lake of fire if you like
Ignorance is bliss?

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Dan Clarkston

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Could be the lake of fire is symbolic of eternal separation from God


It is the final resting place for all those that will spend eternity separated from God.


Are you familiar with the three views of hell?


No, Just what Jesus said about hell - it's real and people are tormented forever there.


No, I personally like the one I heard a minister state: ''Hell is a place where God's presence does not exist'' That would be a place of anguish in my view, a place of never ending torment, or a lake of fire if you like


That's exactly what it is according to Jesus.



Ignorance is bliss?


Those that reject what Jesus says about hell are definitely ignorant but not so blissful
 

St. SteVen

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No, Just what Jesus said about hell - it's real and people are tormented forever there.
Did Jesus really say that, or are you parroting what others have told you?

Did Jesus talk about hell in these Bibles?

Bibles and New Testaments that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

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Dan Clarkston

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Did Jesus really say that, or are you parroting what others have told you?

Did Jesus talk about hell in these Bibles?

Bibles and New Testaments that do NOT contain the word "Hell".


I don't go by fake bible the devil has been tinkering with.

The devil is all about changing what God says so it's no surprise that he is behind adding to and taking away from God's Word.

But, feel free to enjoy the word of the devil and believe there is no hell or whatever it is you believe.
 

St. SteVen

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I don't go by fake bible the devil has been tinkering with.

The devil is all about changing what God says so it's no surprise that he is behind adding to and taking away from God's Word.

But, feel free to enjoy the word of the devil and believe there is no hell or whatever it is you believe.
Do you know the difference between the biblical terms hell. Sheol, Hades, the Grave, Paradise and Tartarus?

Those Bibles all removed the term hell because it is of pagan origin.

This might help.

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave

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St. SteVen

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Dan Clarkston

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When Was Hell Invented?

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


It's too bad so many now days claim Jesus Christ is a liar. Too bad for them.
 

Lizbeth

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All I can say is the Lord is never happy with those who don't give Him the fear that is due Him because He is worthy.

Mat 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(I suspect the second death is where the soul is destroyed, since the first death before being resurrected unto judgment destroys the body.)

Hell, sheol, Hades etc......is a term for death, or the place where the dead go.....to remain permanently if that is the just judgment of God for them. It is figurative for the consuming fire of God which devours/destroys His enemies when once His longsuffering has come to an end and death feeds on them forever......since mankind may also learn the lessons in the pictures of the created world...we don't see too many coming back from the dead after they have died. This is mortality, ie, no eternal life....as opposed to immortality, ie, eternal life, which is granted only to (inherited by), His heirs/children.

We can see in these passages that death feeds permanently or forever on those who are cast into "hell":

Mar 9:43

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: .

Mar 9:43-48


And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 

St. SteVen

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All I can say is the Lord is never happy with those who don't give Him the fear that is due Him because He is worthy.
What would you think of a human that fit that characteristic? Good person, or bad person?

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