Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[Behold]

The paradigm through which you interpret is faulty, therefore the conclusions you arrive at are wanting.....but how do you tell a man with poor vision who believes it is 20/20

There are no Christians in Hell.
There are no Christ rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.

And never the Twain shall meet.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are no Christians in Hell.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

[

 

[Jack]

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

You're not gonna like the lake of fire stevie. And your roommates will be the WORST ever.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Behold]

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

42-48 talk about going to hell

49-50 talks about "salt".

"Salt" = This is a NT symbolism, that refers to..... conviction.

An example...

You have a room full of People at work, (lunch time, in the lunchroom).. and there is a "new hire" and everyone in the room knows they are a Preacher.
So, the room reacts to this..when the Preacher walks in carrying His Bible, and sits down and starts to read it.
The entire atmosphere in the room is now being controlled by CONVICTION.

See that reaction by the people in the room?

The Preacher has SALTED them..... He has brought conviction to them, and they feel it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

There is development of liberalism in the churches that seeks to water down the Gospel, placing emphasis on God's love at the expense of His justice. The idea of "separation from God" is not Scriptural. The story of the Rich man and Lazarus speaks of hell being a place of flames and raging thirst. This is the holding "prison" for unbelievers awaiting the final judgment. Then there is the Lake of Fire where the devil, his angels all those who align themselves with him by rejecting Christ. The Scripture also mentions "outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth". Perhaps this is a part of hell. It is interesting that people in hell can look across the great gulf to the believers in Paradise. The torment for them is that if they had said "yes" to Christ, they would have been in Paradise instead of suffering in hell.

Many churches, including Evangelical, have resorted to a kind of religious philosophy instead of being true to what the Scripture actually says.

 

[quietthinker]

There is development of liberalism in the churches that seeks to water down the Gospel, placing emphasis on God's love at the expense of His justice. The idea of "separation from God" is not Scriptural. The story of the Rich man and Lazarus speaks of hell being a place of flames and raging thirst. This is the holding "prison" for unbelievers awaiting the final judgment. Then there is the Lake of Fire where the devil, his angels all those who align themselves with him by rejecting Christ. The Scripture also mentions "outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth". Perhaps this is a part of hell. It is interesting that people in hell can look across the great gulf to the believers in Paradise. The torment for them is that if they had said "yes" to Christ, they would have been in Paradise instead of suffering in hell.

Many churches, including Evangelical, have resorted to a kind of religious philosophy instead of being true to what the Scripture actually says.

Separating love and justice as if they were opposites is a Western invention. In common parlance it is really revenge (pay back)
God's justice is the process and revelation of being vindicated as being loving (merciful and compassionate) not revengeful.

God does not have a self focused ego like fallen man. Revenge is outside of the revelation of himself in Jesus. Ask yourself, did Jesus ever seek revenge?
Man's revenge does not glorify God's justice. To overlay man's revenge onto God and call it God's justice is like coating admiration with the despicable. It is outrageous at best and Satanic in its intent.

Yes, men will weep, gnash their teeth and gnaw their tongues in pain. Why? because they will realise that the prize they longed for and what they spent their energy on (unending self gratification) is gone from them, never to be found again. The darkness of eternal night will swallow them like a black hole because that's where sin and death and all that love The Lie have their destiny.
......and what is The Lie? The misrepresentation of God.....that dark mystery which deceived Eve....while thinking she was getting a better deal......as it did the many angels.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Separation love and justice as if they were opposites is a Western invention. In common parlance it is really revenge (pay back)
God's justice is the process and revelation of being vindicated as being loving (merciful and compassionate) not revengeful.

God does not have a self focused ego like fallen man. Revenge is outside of the revelation of himself in Jesus. Ask yourself, did Jesus ever seek revenge?
Man's revenge does not glorify God's justice. To overlay man's revenge onto God and call it God's justice is like coating admiration with the despicable. It is outrageous at best and Satanic in its intent.

Yes, men will weep, gnash their teeth and gnaw their tongues in pain. Why? because they will realise that the prize they longed for and what they spent their energy on (unending self gratification) is gone from them, never to be found again. The darkness of eternal night will swallow them like a black hole because that's where sin and death and all that love The Lie have their destiny.
......and what is The Lie? The misrepresentation of God.....that dark mystery which deceived Eve....while thinking she was getting a better deal......as it did the many angels.

A judge in a court of law can love and have compassion toward a defendant convicted of murder, but because the law requires him to pass sentence, even if it is a death sentence, he would not be a competent judge if he didn't pass the sentence.

Jesus loved the rich young ruler, and was sad when the ruler walked away instead of becoming HIs disciple. But He couldn't not accept him as a disciple, because the young man refused to follow His instructions to sell his possessions.

God can love sinners, but He has to abide by His own law and allow them to suffer the consequences of their unbelief. Waiting in hell for the final judgment, and the lake of fire afterward. Anything else is humanist philosophy and not Scripture.

 

[quietthinker]

A judge in a court of law can love and have compassion toward a defendant convicted of murder, but because the law requires him to pass sentence, even if it is a death sentence, he would not be a competent judge if he didn't pass the sentence.

Jesus loved the rich young ruler, and was sad when the ruler walked away instead of becoming HIs disciple. But He couldn't not accept him as a disciple, because the young man refused to follow His instructions to sell his possessions.

God can love sinners, but He has to abide by His own law and allow them to suffer the consequences of their unbelief. Waiting in hell for the final judgment, and the lake of fire afterward. Anything else is humanist philosophy and not Scripture.

God is relational not legal.

If it were legal, whose legality, what law? Oh you mean the 10C's. Isn't the general consensus in Christian circles that the law has been done away with?.....Oh you mean, after Jesus died?
It gets messy. All of a sudden we generate a theory that God needs paying in blood (death) because the law demands death on transgression. Is God really beholden to laws that can so easily be done away with because blood was offered?

I propose that God forgives before we ask him (Jesus demonstrated this several times)
God's reality forgives before the foundation of the world. You might say it says 'slain before the foundation of the World' Yes it does, yet slain means he would rather die than kill.

Death is the domain of the Devil, not God
John 10:10
'The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.'

God's mercy and compassion are his Justice. He sojourned among us as one of us so that we could experience his reality....we could press the flesh with our Creator.....we could see how his Justice works. He never sought revenge for any failure ......even when we murdered him he extended forgiveness.

Death is the consequence of sin, not something God lays on us.
If you eat of this tree you will surely die God said. He didn't say, I will kill you.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 You have heard people say, “Love your neighbours and hate your enemies.” 44 But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you. 45 Then you will be acting like your Father in heaven. He makes the sun rise on both good and bad people. And he sends rain for the ones who do right and for the ones who do wrong. 46 If you love only those people who love you, will God reward you for this? Even tax collectors+ love their friends. 47 If you greet only your friends, what's so great about this? Don't even unbelievers do that? 48 But you must always act like your Father in heaven.

 

[One 2 question]

A judge in a court of law can love and have compassion toward a defendant convicted of murder, but because the law requires him to pass sentence, even if it is a death sentence, he would not be a competent judge if he didn't pass the sentence.

There is development of liberalism in the churches that seeks to water down the Gospel, placing emphasis on God's love at the expense of His justice. The idea of "separation from God" is not Scriptural.

GOD IS LOVE. And clearly displayed this truth of His character.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Go's is Judge. The Creator will fulfil His duty as the Righteous Judge.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

GOD IS LOVE

God never withdraws His love for His created beings. Therefore after trying, judging and sentencing these to the lake of fire His love for them will remain. In time His mercy and grace will become irresistible. They ALL will respond by repenting. God will respond to these prodigal angels by redeeming and reconciling them. Not only these but every one who was cast into the lake of fire. Yes we will become one big happy community as God has willed.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[quietthinker]

GOD IS LOVE. And clearly displayed this truth of His character.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Go's is Judge. The Creator will fulfil His duty as the Righteous Judge.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

GOD IS LOVE

God never withdraws His love for His created beings. Therefore after trying, judging and sentencing these to the lake of fire His love for them will remain. In time His mercy and grace will become irresistible. They ALL will respond by repenting. God will respond to these prodigal angels by redeeming and reconciling them. Not only these but every one who was cast into the lake of fire. Yes we will become one big happy community as God has willed.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Death is a reality for those who do not want life.

 

[St. SteVen]

Death is a reality for those who do not want life.

What kind of death and life?

Can we prevent physical death by wanting physical life?

Who would not want life when it is the alternative to death?

 

[quietthinker]

What kind of death and life?

Can we prevent physical death by wanting physical life?

Who would not want life when it is the alternative to death?

Death is like this _______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Life is like this, 'eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has entered into the mind of man the things God has prepared for those who love him'.

Judas chose death because he didn't believe he could be forgiven; his pride and shame might even have made distancing himself more palatable.

Have you ever wondered why...... 'many' ie, 'the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Rev. 6:15-17......are frightened of a lamb? They perceive him to be angry. Have you ever seen an angry lamb?
When I see a lamb I want to cuddle it.
Something very strange has happened in their minds (perception) when seeing a lamb is interpreted as being angry or a threat.

Sin distorts reality, black is seen as white and white as black. I think that is why Judas necked himself just like these guys in the above passage want to do. They have not come to love the character of God but hate it (just as the religious leaders in Jesus day).....particularly when unstoppable, radiant life is in their immediate presence. It is clear from the text that death is preferable. Strange hypnosis!

 

[St. SteVen]

Death is like this _______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Life is like this, 'eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has entered into the mind of man the things God has prepared for those who love him'.

Judas chose death because he didn't believe he could be forgiven; his pride and shame might even have made distancing himself more palatable.

Have you ever wondered why...... 'many' ie, 'the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Rev. 6:15-17......are frightened of a lamb? They perceive him to be angry. Have you ever seen an angry lamb?
When I see a lamb I want to cuddle it.
Something very strange has happened in their minds (perception) when seeing a lamb is interpreted as being angry or a threat.

Sin distorts reality, black is seen as white and white as black. I think that is why Judas necked himself just like these guys in the above passage want to do. They have not come to love the character of God but hate it (just as the religious leaders in Jesus day).....particularly when unstoppable, radiant life is in their immediate presence. It is clear from the text that death is preferable. Strange hypnosis!

Good post.
I don't question whether some feel that they can't go on with life. And that some are so ashamed that they would rather die.
What I question is whether God will allow them to make that choice ultimately. (permanently)
The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one and carry them back. (against their will, possibly)

 

[St. SteVen]

Good post.
I don't question whether some feel that they can't go on with life. And that some are so ashamed that they would rather die.
What I question is whether God will allow them to make that choice ultimately. (permanently)
The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one and carry them back. (against their will, possibly)

I was just remembering Jesus' words from the cross about forgiving those who crucified Him.
With that in mind, what should He do with these terrified individuals that "see the one they have pierced" upon His return?
Switch to revenge?

 

[Paul Christensen]

GOD IS LOVE. And clearly displayed this truth of His character.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Go's is Judge. The Creator will fulfil His duty as the Righteous Judge.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

GOD IS LOVE

God never withdraws His love for His created beings. Therefore after trying, judging and sentencing these to the lake of fire His love for them will remain. In time His mercy and grace will become irresistible. They ALL will respond by repenting. God will respond to these prodigal angels by redeeming and reconciling them. Not only these but every one who was cast into the lake of fire. Yes we will become one big happy community as God has willed.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Where in the Bible does it say that those who have been cast into the lake of fire to suffer the eternal wrath of God, will be eventually given a second chance?

I don't doubt that God so loves the world that He gave his Son so that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but will have eternal life. That even while we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. But we have to have a right balance between God's love and His justice.

 

[Paul Christensen]

God is relational not legal.

If it were legal, whose legality, what law? Oh you mean the 10C's. Isn't the general consensus in Christian circles that the law has been done away with?.....Oh you mean, after Jesus died?
It gets messy. All of a sudden we generate a theory that God needs paying in blood (death) because the law demands death on transgression. Is God really beholden to laws that can so easily be done away with because blood was offered?

I propose that God forgives before we ask him (Jesus demonstrated this several times)
God's reality forgives before the foundation of the world. You might say it says 'slain before the foundation of the World' Yes it does, yet slain means he would rather die than kill.

Death is the domain of the Devil, not God
John 10:10
'The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.'

God's mercy and compassion are his Justice. He sojourned among us as one of us so that we could experience his reality....we could press the flesh with our Creator.....we could see how his Justice works. He never sought revenge for any failure ......even when we murdered him he extended forgiveness.

Death is the consequence of sin, not something God lays on us.
If you eat of this tree you will surely die God said. He didn't say, I will kill you.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 You have heard people say, “Love your neighbours and hate your enemies.” 44 But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you. 45 Then you will be acting like your Father in heaven. He makes the sun rise on both good and bad people. And he sends rain for the ones who do right and for the ones who do wrong. 46 If you love only those people who love you, will God reward you for this? Even tax collectors+ love their friends. 47 If you greet only your friends, what's so great about this? Don't even unbelievers do that? 48 But you must always act like your Father in heaven.

Paul says that the Law is our tutor to lead us to Christ. Once the person has put their trust in Christ, the Law has been fulfilled. They no longer have to live by the Law. They have the law of Christ written on their new hearts. They hate sin and work to avoid it at all costs. The Christian life consists not in what we have to do by way of works, but what we don't do - that we are set free from the bondage to sin. We can decide through the power of the Holy Spirit within us not to sin, but to love Christ, and our neighbor as ourselves.

However, the unbeliever, outside of Christ, is still under the Law, and is condemned by it, because he can't keep it. He is in bondage to sin. The Bible says that sin is transgression of the Law. This is why we show in evangelism to sinners, that they are condemned by showing them how they are breaking God's Law. Once they are faced with the truth that they will face Judgment and be found guilty and will go to hell, then the Gospel becomes good news for them. This is the way the Law is used to bring people to Christ.

The Scripture says that preaching of the Cross is foolishness to those who don't believe. Those involved in evangelism will tell you that by the many responses they receiving to their preaching of the Gospel.

If we do a close study of Romans, we see how Paul applies the Law to show how unbelievers are condemned through the Law, and then he gives the answer in Christ. He doesn't start Romans by preaching the Cross. He preaches the Cross after showing his readers how they are condemned through the Law.

It is only when a person is convicted of their sin through the Law, and then putting their trust in Christ to save them that there is no condemnation for them in Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I was just remembering Jesus' words from the cross about forgiving those who crucified Him.

Who was he talking about? Certainly not the ones guilty of orchestrating an illegal execution...he was asking God to forgive the ones who drove the nails into his flesh and hung him up to die an agonising death. To the Roman soldiers, they were just doing their job...they had no idea who Jesus really was.

The religious leaders who were intent on seeing Jesus silenced, were not forgivable, since they broke God’s law to carry out their evil plan, and even threatened to report Pilate to Caesar for treason, when he found Jesus not guilty of any crime deserving of death, and wanted to free him.

Jesus himself condemned those religious hypocrites to “Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)....which the Jews knew was a symbol of eternal death. That was all there was in Jewish belief...life or death...not heaven or hell...that concept came from Catholicism, adopted from the pagan Greeks. Even the later Jews came to adopt belief in an immortal soul, which is not taught in Scripture at all.

With that in mind, what should He do with these terrified individuals that "see the one they have pierced" upon His return?
Switch to revenge?

Justice demands recompense.....God’s law was not negotiable. If you committed the crime, you paid the penalty....mercy was only given when circumstances merited it. Justice was served.

Were Adam and his wife deserving of God’s mercy? They knew God’s command and deliberately disobeyed it, knowing the penalty in advance. They knew that their sin was unpardonable and that is why there is not a single statement of remorse or an offering made in repentance by either of them.

They took their punishment in eviction from the garden and separation from God. They lived their lives in expectation of death, and experienced it relatively early when their older son murdered his younger brother in a premeditated act that God already warned him about. Jealousy was eating him up and he too ignored God’s warning. He was not put to death, but then complained that exiling him was too harsh a punishment.

Since all God wanted for the human race in the beginning was obedience to his reasonable commands, and creation itself should have made them grateful for the wonderful provisions they already had, and would continue to have eternally as their family expanded to “fill the earth and subdue it”....ask yourself where would the human race be right now if everyone had just done as they were told by a loving and benevolent Creator?

Why didn’t God just punish the rebels and start again? Why has God forced us to live this life when it’s not what any of us want....we hate the situation we are in, with daily trials and troubles that never seem to get settled before more troubles come...and we lose the ones we love and can do nothing to stop death and illness and pain from consuming our joy in living.

Life was meant to be wonderful, but because of rebellion and abuse of free will, a hard lesson had to be implemented to demonstrate where disobedience would take us. Have we learned anything yet?

Free will was meant to be a gift, but abuse turned it into a curse.

Is this the life we are stuck with, or has God promised a reinstatement of what he originally intended?
And if he purposed to take us back to everlasting life in paradise on earth, what will he do to those who show the same spirit or attitude as satan and his first human dupes?

God is allowing satan to “sift” us, (Luke 22:31) to find the citizens he wants in his Kingdom...both the rulers and its subjects, who will take us all back to plan A. They will all have proven their faith, loyalty and obedience by how they lived in this world that God handed over to the one who wanted to be the god and ruler of mankind (Luke 4:5-7)....we were not to become part of the furniture, but we were to stand out as being separate from it.....being “no part of the world” as Jesus said, (John 18:36) would require absolute obedience, in spite of what the majority in the world were doing.

Step back and see the big picture and ask yourself.....Am I proving right now, what kind of citizen I would be in the “new earth” to come?

Do I have a foot in both camps, dividing my loyalties and taking part in things that satan’s world promotes?
Am I accepting things in my worship that God would reject?
Am I swayed by the political situation in my nation so that I have strong opinions about it and vocalize them?
Do I join the world in its celebrations without carefully examining the origins of such things?
Is my choice of entertainment showing that I reject the world’s standards of morality?
Do I have a balanced view of alcohol and it’s consumption?
Do I show respect for my body by eating a healthy diet? Are we virtually digging a grave with our teeth?

We all have to ask these questions because God does....and we have to be honest about them.
We show him every day, just who we are....he will judge the person he sees, not the one we imagine ourselves to be.

 

[St. SteVen]

Where in the Bible does it say that those who have been cast into the lake of fire to suffer the eternal wrath of God, will be eventually given a second chance?

How many of those never had a "first chance"? Nothing will be left to chance.

Is the Second Death the End? - (nope)

Thanks for this brilliant post from @ProDeo "Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Same...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Paul Christensen]

How many of those never had a "first chance"? Nothing will be left to chance.

Is the Second Death the End? - (nope)

Thanks for this brilliant post from @ProDeo "Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Same...

www.christianityboard.com

A careful study of the first chapters of Romans will give you that answer.

 

[St. SteVen]

Who was he talking about? Certainly not the ones guilty of orchestrating an illegal execution...he was asking God to forgive the ones who drove the nails into his flesh and hung him up to die an agonising death. To the Roman soldiers, they were just doing their job...they had no idea who Jesus really was.

The religious leaders who were intent on seeing Jesus silenced, were not forgivable, since they broke God’s law to carry out their evil plan, and even threatened to report Pilate to Caesar for treason, when he found Jesus not guilty of any crime deserving of death, and wanted to free him.

Jesus himself condemned those religious hypocrites to “Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)....which the Jews knew was a symbol of eternal death. That was all there was in Jewish belief...life or death...not heaven or hell...that concept came from Catholicism, adopted from the pagan Greeks. Even the later Jews came to adopt belief in an immortal soul, which is not taught in Scripture at all.

1 Corinthians 2:8 NIV
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.