Help with John 12:32

[Fred J]

The bible does not teach that Christ died for everybody in the whole world but for His sheep:

That is when one read scripture out of context and shortsightedly testify one's own or denomination version.

John 1:
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of GOD, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Indeed Jesus died for everybody, it is just that who choose to believe and who choose not to believe.

John 16:
8. And when He come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:
9. Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

They are no longer accounted for sin based on violating the moral law of GOD.

But rather of sin, they believe not on Jesus Christ who have already taken those sin away.

Ephesians 2:
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of GOD;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[David Lamb]

That is when one read scripture out of context and shortsightedly testify one's own or denomination version.

John 1:
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of GOD, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Indeed Jesus died for everybody, it is just that who choose to believe and who choose not to believe.

John 16:
8. And when He come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:
9. Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

They are no longer accounted for sin based on violating the moral law of GOD.

But rather of sin, they believe not on Jesus Christ who have already taken those sin away.

Ephesians 2:
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of GOD;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

So do you believe that not all those for whom Christ died will actually be saved? Yet in a prophecy about Jesus Christ, we read in Isaiah:

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.” (Isa 53:10-11 NKJV)

How could He be satisfied, if just one for whom He had given His life ended up unsaved?

We are told several times that the reason Jesus came to earth was to save sinners, not just to make salvation a possibility:

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” (1Ti 1:15 NKJV)

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

 

[Fred J]

So do you believe that not all those for whom Christ died will actually be saved?

The scripture do say, not all shall become saved, but nevertheless all are equally welcomed by the Gospel to be saved.

The point is, GOD so loved the world, and the Son takes away the sin of the world, not of some individual's only.

Those unsaved are due to, instead of coming into the Light, they rather loved darkness and remain.

The parable is about a man who makes a banquet and invites his reputable neighbors and friends.

But none turned up and some made excuses that they had some personal matters to attend to.

Therefore the man told his servants to go to every street corner cum alley and invite every bunch of non reputable nobodies.

He made sure that his house was filled and packed, that none of the earlier invited guests will be able to get in.

Now, equally the first invitation was to all whom he knew, and then only second he gave out to those he knew not.

Who is to be blamed when one is not saved, or one is saved but not ready and left behind, or in the end one's rejected as workers of iniquity/lawlessness?

How could He be satisfied, if just one for whom He had given His life ended up unsaved?

Indeed, because in some of the parables he gave, speaks about also the lost, and due to this at the end He cried.

He even prayed to the FATHER about Judas Iscariot, where He tried to keep the 12 saved, but sadly 1 had to be lost.

If it did not matter to Jesus about Judas' lost of his own doing, He wouldn't have prayed to the FATHER.

We are told several times that the reason Jesus came to earth was to save sinners, not just to make salvation a possibility:

Salvation a possibility to the whole world, but there's a protocol to believe, follow, be saved and stay safe in the race until our time is up.

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” (1Ti 1:15 NKJV)

Paul was a violent persecutor of the church, but even a man like him can also be saved and finished the race.

We've been discipled that, For what we seem impossible but for GOD all things are possible.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

If by Calvinists you mean those who, like me, believe in the Doctrines of Grace, I don't think it is right to link Calvinism to "the Mary Obsessed, The Book of Mormon obsessed, the JWs, the Mary Baker Eddy disciples... the Gnostics..... The Scientologists, the French Philosophers......The Buddha". Calvinists fully believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that nobody comes to the Father except through Him.

We've been disciple in All Scripture = Holy Bible, especially the New Testament. (2Timothy3:16&17)

Therefore why these denominational legitimate claims, when they're shortsighted man made divisions and traditions, Paul strongly opposed to?

When he says, why are there some follow me, or some Peter, or some Apollos, and there are division in the church?

When Christ alone is the center and Chief Cornerstone above all.

Since their testimonies in whole have not found room in one's heart, hence result to all these immature proceedings.

Even though they're not with us, but their words are near to us, and we've no excuse for the immature back and forth.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Carl Emerson]

What do you mean, considering we commit sin daily, and thus repentance isn't a "one and done"?

I mean do all humans repent before the end of this life ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Again, you need to rephrase your question for clarity, and first consider that repentance isn't a "one and done".

Correct it is an attitude.

Do all humans repent before the end of this life?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I actually said that repentance isn't a "one and done". And, you're not understanding how you need to clarify your question, so I'll help you. First, give your understanding of repentance.

...a heart attitude that confesses Christ and seeks to honor Him in every aspect of life.

Do all humans repent before the end of this life?

I ask this because you said...

"He will draw everybody to Himself (redeem mankind)..."

 

[shepherdsword]

The Lord Jesus will draw all men to himself for judgement. Not all will be saved. However, it is clear that all COULD be if they would repent and turn to Christ. He died for the sins of the whole world. The scriptures are clear on this:


Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ah, so, before I say anything further, am I to understand that you think the redemption of all mankind means that all of mankind will repent?

You tell me...

 

[Behold]

I actually said that repentance isn't a "one and done".

Repenting from Unbelief, is to have Faith in Christ.........which leads to God giving this believer "The Gift of Salvation".
So, that is "one and done", as noone is born again more then one time, because this is an eternal spiritual birth that is caused by God's Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't want to presume your answer, which is why I asked you to tell me it. My answer to the same question, though, is "no".

Mmmm... why did it take so long to discover we agree ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

The fact that you asked me "Will all repent in this life then?" in response to my explanation of Jn. 12:31-32 where I said Jesus redeemed all humankind, indicated to me that you might think Jesus's redeeming of all humankind means that all humankind will repent. So, I asked for your understanding of repentance to be sure, and since your answer wasn't clear enough for me, I asked pointblank if you think the redemption of all humankind means that all humankind will repent. You didn't answer, so I gave my answer, and I'm finding out now that you agree.

Yes, UR advocates use the verse to justify the idea of all being ultimately saved.

 

[Fred J]

Repentance is not once and done??

Repentance is truthfully once and done since the beginning.

In the beginning hearing the Gospel repentant take baptism in faith as a sign to witnesses.

That, one bury their old carnal man of sin born of a human parent.

Now, born again a new spirit man out of the water and of the Holy Ghost.

That's why in the Gospel when Jesus met sinners, after bailing them out of oppression, He cautioned them saying;

"Go, and sin no more." (John 8:11)

"You are made whole: sin no more, lest a worst thing come to you. (John 5;14)

Apparently, the Master Jesus did not permit anyone forgiven of all their sin, to go on sinning again.

Even, 1 John 1:9 tolerance is given to the church, that upon confessing one's sins, in future sin no more.

Matthew 5:
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your FATHER which is in Heaven is perfect.

I John 3:
8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of GOD was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9. Whosoever is born of GOD doth not commit sin; for HIS seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of GOD.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Scott Downey]

The scripture do say, not all shall become saved, but nevertheless all are equally welcomed by the Gospel to be saved.

The point is, GOD so loved the world, and the Son takes away the sin of the world, not of some individual's only.

Those unsaved are due to, instead of coming into the Light, they rather loved darkness and remain.

The parable is about a man who makes a banquet and invites his reputable neighbors and friends.

But none turned up and some made excuses that they had some personal matters to attend to.

Therefore the man told his servants to go to every street corner cum alley and invite every bunch of non reputable nobodies.

He made sure that his house was filled and packed, that none of the earlier invited guests will be able to get in.

Now, equally the first invitation was to all whom he knew, and then only second he gave out to those he knew not.

Who is to be blamed when one is not saved, or one is saved but not ready and left behind, or in the end one's rejected as workers of iniquity/lawlessness?

Indeed, because in some of the parables he gave, speaks about also the lost, and due to this at the end He cried.

He even prayed to the FATHER about Judas Iscariot, where He tried to keep the 12 saved, but sadly 1 had to be lost.

If it did not matter to Jesus about Judas' lost of his own doing, He wouldn't have prayed to the FATHER.

Salvation a possibility to the whole world, but there's a protocol to believe, follow, be saved and stay safe in the race until our time is up.

Paul was a violent persecutor of the church, but even a man like him can also be saved and finished the race.

We've been discipled that, For what we seem impossible but for GOD all things are possible.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

unbeliever's sins are not taken away, they die in their sins.

John 8
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift[m] up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

 

[Carl Emerson]

chosen IN HIM

Mmmm...

I thought we were not to add to His Word...

 

[ScottA]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

 

[Scott Downey]

The Greek doesn't say "all men", it doesn't say all of what; it just says "all". The translators added "men" or "people" to try to make sense of it. And in doing so, they may have unintentionally created a different context for the quote.

The context is the current prince of this world being kicked out (verse 31), so "I will draw all to myself" may mean Messiah will consolidate EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY under His rule when He has been glorified.

Like having all things put under His feet. He was certainly given all authority and power in Heaven and earth after He was raised and He is now seated at the hand of the Power, the Father in heaven.

1. 1 Corinthians 15:25
   For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 Corinthians 15:27
   For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Ephesians 1:22
   And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Hebrews 2:8
   You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put underhim.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Fred J]

unbeliever's sins are not taken away, they die in their sins.

John 1:
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of GOD, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 16:
8. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:
9. Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

Apparently not believing in the Gospel that Jesus Christ died and rose again taking away the sins of the world, people do die with their sins unforgiven.

These no longer die with their sins unforgiven because the Jews violated the Law and the Prophets and the Gentiles violated the law of their conscience.

(By the way according to Romans' epistle, the Jews are exempted because a partial blindness to the Gospel happened to Israel (Romans 11:25). This is until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in through the same Gospel. And so all Israel shall be saved in the end without repentance (Romans 11:26-29).

Because after Jesus' ascension the Holy Ghost came down, and through the Apostles and the church, He reprove the world of sin.

And their sin will be only for not believing in the Gospel and Jesus Christ paid in full for their sin, period.

John 8
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift[m] up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

Jesus was taking to the unbelieving Jews when He have not fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, and nail their sin on the Cross.

Surely at that time, the Jews do perish with their sins unforgiven under the Law and the Prophets, hence believing not the sent Messiah who've not fulfilled them.

But after Jesus' death, resurrection, ascension in fulfillment and the Holy Ghost coming down, the order differ between the Jews and Gentiles.

From then on until today the Jews are enemies of the Gospel due to the partial blindness happened to them, to only a remnant of them have been saved by grace.

Since the focus of the Gospel and salvation went to the Gentiles, till the fulness of them be come in.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Scott Downey]

John 1:
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of GOD, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 16:
8. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:
9. Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

Apparently not believing in the Gospel that Jesus Christ died and rose again taking away the sins of the world, people do die with their sins unforgiven.

These no longer die with their sins unforgiven because the Jews violated the Law and the Prophets and the Gentiles violated the law of their conscience.

(By the way according to Romans' epistle, the Jews are exempted because a partial blindness to the Gospel happened to Israel (Romans 11:25). This is until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in through the same Gospel. And so all Israel shall be saved in the end without repentance (Romans 11:26-29).

Because after Jesus' ascension the Holy Ghost came down, and through the Apostles and the church, He reprove the world of sin.

And their sin will be only for not believing in the Gospel and Jesus Christ paid in full for their sin, period.

Jesus was taking to the unbelieving Jews when He have not fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, and nail their sin on the Cross.

Surely at that time, the Jews do perish with their sins unforgiven under the Law and the Prophets, hence believing not the sent Messiah who've not fulfilled them.

But after Jesus' death, resurrection, ascension in fulfillment and the Holy Ghost coming down, the order differ between the Jews and Gentiles.

From then on until today the Jews are enemies of the Gospel due to the partial blindness happened to them, to only a remnant of them have been saved by grace.

Since the focus of the Gospel and salvation went to the Gentiles, till the fulness of them be come in.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

The unbelieving Jews will die in their sins, unforgiven, same as unbelieving gentiles.
The verses on a partial hardening (partial as some Jews did believe the gospel) is speaking of them as a nation, not as individuals.
It likely is more Jews will believe as the end grows closer. We will see the truth of that if we are allowed to witness it.

Nevertheless, all Israel will be saved, because believing gentiles have been grafted into the vine which is Christ. There is no longer jew or gentile. Gentiles are part of the family when they believe, same as jews.
They are become one new man in Christ

Ephesians 2

Brought Near by His Blood​

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace​

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Christ Our Cornerstone​

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Fred J]

The unbelieving Jews will die in their sins, unforgiven, same as unbelieving gentiles.

Nope, as we've testified that the Jews or all Israel, are exempted due to the partial blindness is happened to them.

Meaning, partially blinding them the Gospel message and GOD had concluded them all in unbelief (Romans 11:32), due to the salvation of the Gentiles.

On the other hand, is not about partial Jews being saved and partially not.

Romans 11:
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

According to Apostle Paul, besides all Israel there is indeed a remnant saved by the election of grace.

(All Israel or all Jews will be saved in the end, is referring solely to the descendants of Jacob and his 12 sons, and not anyone who claim to be a Jew)

When Jesus said that the Holy Ghost will reprove the world of sin, is referring to the Gentiles.

Therefore, the Gentiles or self claim Jews when they're not, who do not believe in the Gospel and Jesus Christ paid in full for their sins, will die with their sins unforgiven.

The verses on a partial hardening (partial as some Jews did believe the gospel) is speaking of them as a nation, not as individuals.

Again, is not about partial Jews believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the partial rest did not.

But rather partial blindness to the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and He's the Messiah.

It likely is more Jews will believe as the end grows closer. We will see the truth of that if we are allowed to witness it.

All Israel or all true Jews will be saved in the end not because of the Gospel, but because of election, beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

Romans 11:
27. For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes (Gentiles): but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling (Romans 9:4&5) of GOD are without repentance.

Towards the reign of anti-Christ, there will be 2 witnesses sent to Israel to minister to them, until they're killed.

In the end when all Israel is saved and in Heaven, then they will come to knowledge Jesus was their Messiah and the Son of GOD.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ who is Lord