Here’s the most critical question for you

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ScottA

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So you DO have an opinion.
You are OSAS.

You believe that once a person accepts Jesus as savior he is saved forever and no matter what?
What if he denies Jesus after some years and goes back to a life without God?
Is he still saved?
Well...it is not opinion to agree with the scriptures.

But even if opinion and even if you leave God out of it...how do you get "unsaved" out of "saved?"

"Saved" is the word used by God. Do you believe that He defines the word the opposite of what He said? Or is it that you do not take Him at His word? (Rhetorical)

Knowing that you will surely answer that indeed you do take Him at His word, and therefore must also take Him at His word when He seems to indicate a loss of salvation.

To this, I would say show me - because there is no word from God that says, Yes, is No. No, on the contrary, the confusion is not being able to reconcile what you do not understand. So...show me, that we can come to understand and reconcile the truth.
 
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GodsGrace

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Well...it is not opinion to agree with the scriptures.

But even if opinion and even if you leave God out of it...how do you get "unsaved" out of "saved?"

"Saved" is the word used by God. Do you believe that He defines the word the opposite of what He said? Or is it that you do not take Him at His word? (Rhetorical)

Knowing that you will surely answer that indeed you do take Him at His word, and therefore must also take Him at His word when He seems to indicate a loss of salvation.

To this, I would say show me - because there is no word from God that says, Yes, is No. No, on the contrary, the confusion is not being able to reconcile what you do not understand. So...show me, that we can come to understand and reconcile the truth.
No Bible here.
Tomorrow.
I will say that Paul exhorts us to not waver. If he took the time to do this, it must be for an important reason.
 

Stranger

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Great, start interpreting!
I.E. Please show why my interpretation of all those verses is incorrect.

I am not going to write 20 pages to cover the amount of verses you have presented. Every verse you present will become many posts of arguments. Thus what you are doing is making a smoke screen to give yourself room to jump and hide all over the place. You probably got the list from googling it on the internet. Then you add your own generalization statements to them. Am I right?

Choose one. One that you feel you can handle in the Word of God. Then I will respond to your google post. If you're afraid and can't choose one you think you can handle on your own, then ignore this post or tell me you just refuse to do it. I will understand.

Stranger
 
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GodsGrace

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I am not going to write 20 pages to cover the amount of verses you have presented. Every verse you present will become many posts of arguments. Thus what you are doing is making a smoke screen to give yourself room to jump and hide all over the place. You probably got the list form googling it on the internet. Then you add your own generalization statements to them. Am I right?

Choose one. One that you feel you can handle in the Word of God. Then I will respond to your google post. If you're afraid and can't choose one you think you can handle on your own, then ignore this post or tell me you just refuse to do it. I will understand.

Stranger
Doesn't that number of verses tend to prove a point?
It's the scripture that speaks, not so much the OPs comments.
Mathew 7:21-23 alone says a lot.
One must do the will of the Father or Jesus will proclaim to not know them.
This also means that one could lose salvation if the don't do the will of the Father.
 

ScottA

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Me either. But I also believe God can remove a name from the book of life, because he said he can. It shouldn't be impossible for God to change something in eternity, though it is hard for me to grasp. How can something change that has been and will be for all time? God speaks and it happens.
It is no contradiction to say that all things are possible with God, but also that He does not change.

The problem lies completely in our inability to grasp that all things have been determined "in the twinkling of an eye", meaning that even though our "moment of decision" takes a lifetime, it is timeless by the only measure that is true, which is not in time, but in eternity. There is only "before", "afterwards", and "I am."
 

Armadillo

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Man is driven by his basic need of reward and punishment and this is exactly how the world lives. To believe that Jesus "did it all so we can get all" is pride busting. OSAS!

Ezekiel 36:26-27, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

God does all the work and whatever we do is the result of Him working in us. The only work we do is working out what He works in and it's not difficult, it's fun.

Philippians 2:13, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

To say someone can lose their salvation is to believe God failed with that person.

Galatians 3:13, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Everyone who is under the law to become righteous on their own will be cursed. Why try to justify yourself by what you can do when Jesus has already justified you?

Romans 11:29, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

The free gift of salvation, you can't earn it, the gift is free for all those who believe in His Son so why then try to keep the law to keep the gift?

Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

This verse is very clear, a definite separation between works and grace.
 
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Armadillo

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It seems to me that those who insist that salvation cannot be lost are attempting to tell God what the rules are.

That blanket statement may also be true for those who believe they can lose their salvation if they don't answer to a distant, angry, slave driver god of their own making. Or, perhaps they just don't know that God is appeased, not distant and is like a mother hen wanting to gather her chicks under her wings.
 

GodsGrace

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Man is driven by his basic need of reward and punishment and this is exactly how the world lives. To believe that Jesus "did it all so we can get all" is pride busting. OSAS!

Ezekiel 36:26-27, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

God does all the work and whatever we do is the result of Him working in us. The only work we do is working out what He works in and it's not difficult, it's fun.

Philippians 2:13, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

To say someone can lose their salvation is to believe God failed with that person.

Galatians 3:13, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Everyone who is under the law to become righteous on their own will be cursed. Why try to justify yourself by what you can do when Jesus has already justified you?

Romans 11:29, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

The free gift of salvation, you can't earn it, the gift is free for all those who believe in His Son so why then try to keep the law to keep the gift?

Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

This verse is very clear, a definite separation between works and grace.
All your verses except one have to do with salvation ,,, what happens after salvation?
Ephesians 2:10
 

Stranger

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Doesn't that number of verses tend to prove a point?
It's the scripture that speaks, not so much the OPs comments.
Mathew 7:21-23 alone says a lot.
One must do the will of the Father or Jesus will proclaim to not know them.
This also means that one could lose salvation if the don't do the will of the Father.

Well, the number of verses doesn't prove a point. It just proves one has found a long list of verses to make it appear that their point is proved.

Concerning these verses you have addressed, (Matt. 7:21-23), they concern, not the Church, but the Kingdom of God. Something you and I have addressed elsewhere. See (Matt. 4:17). In (Matt. chapters 5-7) Christ is giving the 'laws of the kingdom'. See (Matt. 5:3) (Matt. 6:10). The laws of the kingdom are not the laws governing the Church of Christ. The kingdom laws are more strict than the Mosaic law.

This kingdom is the one promised to Israel in the Old Testament, rejected by them in the New Testament, but will be accomplished yet in the future during the Millennium. Between that time, when they rejected the kingdom, and, when the kingdom will be restored to them, is the time of the Church. A new and totally different body of believers. Point being...(Matt. 7:21-23) is about the entrance into the kingdom which is that millennial kingdom yet future. It is not about the believer who comes now to Christ by faith into the Church.

These verses do not speak of losing ones salvation. Christ said in (7:23), "I never knew you". That means they were never saved. They played the part, but they were never saved. Our churches are full of these types today....are they not?

If one comes to Jesus Christ by faith, then Christ knows them. And He will never say to them, I never knew you. He won't do it. Note here in these verses, that there is every reason given for these people to be accepted by Him. They did good works, they cast out demons. He didn't reject them because of their works, which were 'good'. He rejected them because He did not know them. Profound statement.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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No Bible here.
Tomorrow.
I will say that Paul exhorts us to not waver. If he took the time to do this, it must be for an important reason.
The reason is that he lived in the time of greatest transition, that time where the word was preached to the dead in Christ and also to the living in Christ. Each would have to endure. But his message was more one of having faith in the face of adversity, and to have hope throughout the entire age and times of the gentiles.

Tomorrow then. God bless!
 
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GodsGrace

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Well, the number of verses doesn't prove a point. It just proves one has found a long list of verses to make it appear that their point is proved.

Concerning these verses you have addressed, (Matt. 7:21-23), they concern, not the Church, but the Kingdom of God. Something you and I have addressed elsewhere. See (Matt. 4:17). In (Matt. chapters 5-7) Christ is giving the 'laws of the kingdom'. See (Matt. 5:3) (Matt. 6:10). The laws of the kingdom are not the laws governing the Church of Christ. The kingdom laws are more strict than the Mosaic law.

This kingdom is the one promised to Israel in the Old Testament, rejected by them in the New Testament, but will be accomplished yet in the future during the Millennium. Between that time, when they rejected the kingdom, and, when the kingdom will be restored to them, is the time of the Church. A new and totally different body of believers. Point being...(Matt. 7:21-23) is about the entrance into the kingdom which is that millennial kingdom yet future. It is not about the believer who comes now to Christ by faith into the Church.

These verses do not speak of losing ones salvation. Christ said in (7:23), "I never knew you". That means they were never saved. They played the part, but they were never saved. Our churches are full of these types today....are they not?

If one comes to Jesus Christ by faith, then Christ knows them. And He will never say to them, I never knew you. He won't do it. Note here in these verses, that there is every reason given for these people to be accepted by Him. They did good works, they cast out demons. He didn't reject them because of their works, which were 'good'. He rejected them because He did not know them. Profound statement.

Stranger
Stranger,
I really don't k ow what you're speak g about.
Places, times, people, present, future...
The NT is for us now and for after we die.
Tomorrow on my computer.
 

amadeus

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In my understanding of "saved" versus "not saved" versus losing "salvation", I remember that God has never changed, so I look for one good example of a man of God in the OT, who lost his place with God. Did he lose his salvation?

1Ki 13:1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.
1Ki 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.
1Ki 13:3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.
1Ki 13:4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.
1Ki 13:5 The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.
1Ki 13:6 And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.
1Ki 13:7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.
1Ki 13:8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:
1Ki 13:9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.
1Ki 13:10 So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.
1Ki 13:11 Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.
1Ki 13:12 And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.
1Ki 13:13 And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the ass. So they saddled him the ass: and he rode thereon,
1Ki 13:14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.
1Ki 13:15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.
1Ki 13:16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:
1Ki 13:17 For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.
1Ki 13:18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.
1Ki 13:19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.
1Ki 13:20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:
1Ki 13:21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
1Ki 13:22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
1Ki 13:23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
1Ki 13:24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

The man of God was certainly a man of God and a prophet. His prophecies as related in the above verses were fulfilled in II Kings 23:17 about 350 years later. The man of God was saved from the wrath of the king of Israel in verse 4 above when the king's hand withered. The man of God later threw away his salvation when he failed to check in with God before going ahead and eating and drinking, in which he disobeyed God's original command to him. The man of God died by the lion because of his disobedience. [...the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23]...

No one can take us out of God's hand, but we can always turn our back and walk away out of the hand of God.

Lot's wife from saved from Sodom, but then being saved she disobeyed God and looked back becoming then a pillar of salt.

The natural children of Israel were all saved out their bondage in Egypt, but then after crossing the Red Sea into the wilderness they repeatedly turned away from the God who had done such great miracles for them. He had saved them from the plagues that struck Egypt. He had saved them from the starvation and from dying of thirst in the wilderness. Repeatedly He had accepted their repentance for they did repent more than once for their murmuring and complaining. Finally after 10 times [Numbers 14:22-23] God decreed that none (except Joshua and Caleb) of the adults who had been saved out of Egypt would be allowed to enter into the Promised Land. They would die in the wilderness. [...the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23]...

Do we suppose that we are special with a higher place in God than that man of God in I Kings 13? Some might say that we have more or better promises than that man of God had. That may be so, but then we should read and understand what Jesus said here:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

To me it says that if we have really received more from God than any of those in the OT, then God will require more from us. If we are doing more and better considering all that God has given us, what are we likely to receive when we fail to use properly what we have been given?

We have [in the United States certainly] received time, money, opportunity, clothes, education, easy Bible access, etc. beyond what most people in most countries of the world have received at any time or place. So then... "much is given... much is required".

"... Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21
 

Stranger

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Stranger,
I really don't k ow what you're speak g about.
Places, times, people, present, future...
The NT is for us now and for after we die.
Tomorrow on my computer.

Sounds good. I'm wore out anyway.

Stranger
 
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Helen

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OSAS =

P.S. You're in terrible shape spiritually.
It's time to get with God's program.
You can start by reading the OP.
OP = Original Post

Good night...another one of 'those people' who size the rest of us up in a few short posts, and declare judgement on our relationship with the Lord.....Y A W N..

"Beam my up Scottie " :eek: :rolleyes: :confused:
 

ScottA

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Mathew 7:21-23 alone says a lot.
One must do the will of the Father or Jesus will proclaim to not know them.
This also means that one could lose salvation if the don't do the will of the Father.
This puts the cart in front of the horse.

It is because a person does the will of the Father that he is saved. Therefore, if that person has done the will of the Father, there is no problem. You have purposed a hypothetical that only has one possible outcome, but have asserted the impossible, as if God Himself could loose one whom He has found.

No, the matter is rather as John writes:

1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
 

mjrhealth

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I believe Jesus saw the written Word as important. (Matt. 4:4,7,10)
hmmm

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

not as important as Him or teh Holy Spirit.... Problem is mankind has put more emphasis on the bible than learning from the one who is teh truth.

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

So go do as HE says, learn from Him than,

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
 
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