Here’s the most critical question for you

[GodsGrace]

Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost!

I asked you what happens after salvation since all your verses had to do with Justification

You answered the above, which is very true.

But doesn't sanctification come after justification?
Sanctification requires our works to be combined with God's grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

i thought so too; still kinda feel that way. But Paul is called--or calls himself, i think--an apostle in the NT; so i have kind of felt like i should reconsider that.
i agree, but i also could make a pretty convincing argument for you having been sent i guess

Sure.
But I didn't witness the resurrection personally and if real time.

 

[ScottA]

Just going thru now.
Sorry if I'm repeating.
Also, I'm in a different time zone and apologize for the bunched up posts.

Believing that one cannot lose salvation is not biblical.
First of all, the bible must be taken as a Whole and complete thought.
We cannot pluck verses out to make them say what we want them to say.

There are many IF's in theNew Testament:

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,2Pe 1:6

and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
2Pe 1:7

and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
2Pe 1:8

For if these qualities2Pe 1:9

For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10

Therefore, brothers,[fn] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

**********************


And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22

he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23

if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation[fn]under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

**************************************

We can be sure of our salvationfor as long as we remain in our faith.

If Paul makes such an effort to tell us to continue in our faith, it means we CAN fall away.

Hebrews 3:12
We must hold firm until the end

How else would you explain this?

No, you have not defined "salvation", but rather have defined "faith" and "hope", which are the words used in the text you quoted.

Nonetheless, we two cannot joust with scripture against scripture to prove our own understanding. If what we believe does not align with and reconcile with all scripture, then we are in error. This is why I asked you to show me...because you have quoted scripture that you believe supports the possibility of losing salvation, but it does not: Those words were preach to those whom "are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown" of which the Lord made clear, some on "stony ground", some "among thorns", and some on "good ground" - as it is even today. These are not the saved, but merely those who are "called." Thus, it is written: "Many are called, but few are chosen."

So, then, if we reconcile all scripture, we must define these as those who are "called", and change our false witness from "salvation can be lost by Him who has lost none, save the son of perdition", to: "It is those who are called whom can loose the salvation that was generously offered to them."

 

[ScottA]

Who are the dead in Christ?

They are Israel, those to whom were given the promise of Messiah, and yet died before He sent the Holy Spirit whom gives life from God. Having died with Him in his death upon the cross, they are with Him in death, but not alive with Him until He comes again. Which, if you can receive it, has come already among those whom have received the Holy Spirit. But the dead in Christ do not live again until after these times of the gentiles (the church age) are fulfilled (also known as the "thousand years" of Christ's reign upon the earth).

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you have not defined "salvation", but rather have defined "faith" and "hope", which are the words used in the text you quoted.

Nonetheless, we two cannot joust with scripture against scripture to prove our own understanding. If what we believe does not align with and reconcile with all scripture, then we are in error. This is why I asked you to show me...because you have quoted scripture that you believe supports the possibility of losing salvation, but it does not: Those words were preach to those whom "are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown" of which the Lord made clear, some on "stony ground", some "among thorns", and some on "good ground" - as it is even today. These are not the saved, but merely those who are "called." Thus, it is written: "Many are called, but few are chosen."

So, then, if we reconcile all scripture, we must define these as those who are "called", and change our faults witness from "salvation can be lost by Him who has lost none, save the son of perdition", to: "It is those who are called whom can loose the salvation that was generously offered to them."

Hi Scott,
I AM reconciling all scripture.
If we have faith and believe we can be sure of our salvation.
If we DO NOT have faith and DO NOT believe, we cannot have salvation.

Hebrews 3:12 says that we must HOLD FIRM until the end. This means that it's possible to let go. Otherwise, why would Paul tell us to hold firm?

Also in Colossians 1:22 we're told that we're to CONTINUE in the faith, being stable and steadfast.

In 2 Peter 1:10 we're told that IF we hold on to these [good] qualities, we will not FALL, which means that it is possible to fall.

ALL these verses have to do with salvation.

The reason I think this is a subject Worth debating is because someone's salvation may be at stake.

Jesus said that we are to follow His commandments.
John 14:15

If we don't, will we still be saved?
Some believe that once a person has gone to the altar and accepted Jesus as their savior and then fall away in months or years. THEY ARE STILL SAVED.

This cannot be true.

For as long as we ABIDE in Christ, we are safe.
If we are NOT abiding in Him, we are NOT safe.
This is important.
John 15:6 says that if someone does not abide in Jesus, he will dry up and be burned as the branches that do not remain in Jesus who is the vine.
John 15:5

And regarding the seeds Landing on the rock, Jesus clearly says that they were saved for a while and then became lost.

Mathew 13:18 >NIV
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdomP)'> and does not understand it, the evil oneQ)'> comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.

21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.R)'>

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealthS)'> choke the word, making it unfruitful.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Mathew 13:20
The word is received with joy - the person hears and is saved.

Mathew 13:21
The word does not have root and when trouble comes, the saved person FALLS AWAY and is no longer saved.

It is very Dangerous to say that someone cannot lose salvation.

Can you post a scripture that says this, as I've posted several that say it can be lost?

 

[GodsGrace]

They are Israel, those to whom were given the promise of Messiah, and yet died before He sent the Holy Spirit whom gives life from God. Having died with Him in his death upon the cross, they are with Him in death, but not alive with Him until He comes again. Which, if you can receive it, has come already among those whom have received the Holy Spirit. But the dead in Christ do not live again until after these times of the gentiles (the church age) are fulfilled (also known as the "thousand years" of Christ's reign upon the earth).

Are you saying we're in the 1,000 year reign right now?

Are you saying the Jews who died before Christ was resurrected are still dead?

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,
I AM reconciling all scripture.
If we have faith and believe we can be sure of our salvation.
If we DO NOT have faith and DO NOT believe, we cannot have salvation.

Hebrews 3:12 says that we must HOLD FIRM until the end. This means that it's possible to let go. Otherwise, why would Paul tell us to hold firm?

Also in Colossians 1:22 we're told that we're to CONTINUE in the faith, being stable and steadfast.

In 2 Peter 1:10 we're told that IF we hold on to these [good] qualities, we will not FALL, which means that it is possible to fall.

ALL these verses have to do with salvation.

The reason I think this is a subject Worth debating is because someone's salvation may be at stake.

Jesus said that we are to follow His commandments.
John 14:15

If we don't, will we still be saved?
Some believe that once a person has gone to the altar and accepted Jesus as their savior and then fall away in months or years. THEY ARE STILL SAVED.

This cannot be true.

For as long as we ABIDE in Christ, we are safe.
If we are NOT abiding in Him, we are NOT safe.
This is important.
John 15:6 says that if someone does not abide in Jesus, he will dry up and be burned as the branches that do not remain in Jesus who is the vine.
John 15:5

And regarding the seeds Landing on the rock, Jesus clearly says that they were saved for a while and then became lost.

Mathew 13:18 >NIV
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdomP)'> and does not understand it, the evil oneQ)'> comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.

21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.R)'>

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealthS)'> choke the word, making it unfruitful.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Mathew 13:20
The word is received with joy - the person hears and is saved.

Mathew 13:21
The word does not have root and when trouble comes, the saved person FALLS AWAY and is no longer saved.

It is very Dangerous to say that someone cannot lose salvation.

Can you post a scripture that says this, as I've posted several that say it can be lost?

No, you are still speaking of the "call" to repentance, not to salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. We cannot choose it - it is He whom chooses us. These scriptures you have quoted all address those who are called to "change" through repentance and be found of Him doing His will.

The scripture I have given you already - that He has lost none, save the son of perdition.

 

[ScottA]

Are you saying we're in the 1,000 year reign right now?

Are you saying the Jews who died before Christ was resurrected are still dead?

Yes, right now. These are the days of which it is written of Christ's reign upon the earth.

As for the Jews: Yes, they are dead to the dead, but alive to the living. Which is why I said, "if you can receive it." The living have been raised up with Christ, which is the first resurrection. But, as Paul indicated, we do not proceed those who are dead (in Christ), for they are with Him, having proceeded us in physical death.

 

[amadeus]

You mention the Israelites.
They promised to obey the 10 Commandments.
Who of them were saved. Those who in faith attempted to, or those who worshippe the Golden Calf?

God really was looking for the same thing in the those Israelites that He seeks in people today. The people may have had a different set of black and white rules set before them, but God was always looking at the heart. It was not just whether or not you had followed the literal rules, but whether your purpose and your reactions were what God wanted to see. Consider King David. The man sinned grievously committing both adultery and murder, both punishable under the literal law given to Moses by death. David did not die because God was looking at the man's heart. The man, David, knew for his sins that he deserved to die and he was willing to take what was coming. Yet as we see in the following verses God did not take his life:

"Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun." II Sam 12:9-11

David was punished, but why was he spared the ultimate penalty of death? Perhaps David answers this question for us in this psalm:

"O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:15-17

We see that truly God has never changed even though man's circumstances have changed and the black and white rules seem on the surface to be different...

Is it not the same today?-

If one has faith, he is saved.
if one loses faith, HOW could he still be saved?

Yes, the very same. Read up on Joshua and Caleb, the only two adults named who were saved out of Egypt and also were allowed to enter into the Promised Land. I really don't suppose it was because they obeyed the letter of the law God gave to Moses all of the time without fail. Rather like David there was something in their hearts which God saw.

Every person born of woman has a measure of faith. Where that faith is directed is what God sees and measures in us. A lot of people on these forums that I have seen regularly express a negative faith saying that no one can be sinless, that no one can be perfect. Is that not diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught? Is that not a negative faith?

Do not we all have faith [especially those of us who are not mechanics]that when we turn the ignition key of our car, it is going to start? Yet even though Jesus says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."[Matt 5:48]... we have some excuse to why we cannot do it.

Did Jesus come for nothing? Do we not seek to use what he brought to us to be brought even closer to God? What is impossible for God? Is it not God who will be doing the work in us... if we do not stop Him with our negative faith?

 

[Helen]

@amadeus Amen John!

 

[bbyrd009]

Sure.
But I didn't witness the resurrection personally and if real time.

Paul does not admit to witnessing the resurrection either that i know of, but that was always my criteria.

 

[twinc]

No, you are still speaking of the "call" to repentance, not to salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. We cannot choose it - it is He whom chooses us. These scriptures you have quoted all address those who are called to "change" through repentance and be found of Him doing His will.

The scripture I have given you already - that He has lost none, save the son of perdition.

in Christian charity and in a belief of a just and merciful God, imho, ir behoves us to accept that the Saviour of the world will fulfil His task "I have come not to judge the world but to save it" - He came because we are not responsible for Adams sin nor really for ours as a consequence - this is the truth and glory of Christ and Christianity not to be denied or thrown away - twinc

 

[Stranger]

Matthew 7:21-23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 “A)'>Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22 B)'>Many will say to Me on C)'>that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many a]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-23339a">[a]miracles?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; D)'>depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’


Hi Stranger,

Jesus was saying how a person could be known by their fruit.
Jesus says that He will not know those who practice LAWLESSNESS (even if they can do miracles in His name).

Jesus says that those who HEAR and ACT on His words are the wise men.
24 “Therefore A)'>everyone who hears these words of Mine and a]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-23341a">[a]acts on them, b]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-23341b">[b]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

I'm very familiarj with the teaching on the Kingdom of God.
I do, however, disagree that the Kingdom message is not for us today.
There are not two messages in the N.T. -- one for the Jews and one for us.
There is no longer Jew or gentile.
Galatians 3:28

We are ONE in Jesus. Everything He said applied to all of us even today.
I know I will not convince you, I just hope Others understand that Jesus spoke for everyone and for all time until He returns.

Yes, we are one in the Body of Christ, the Church. And we can make application of all that is written in the Bible. But not all that is written is to the Church or to you. Do you believe we are still under the law? Between Adam and Moses, were the people under the Mosaic Law?

Remember too that although Jesus ministry is found in the New Testament, we are not on New Testament ground. It is entirely Old Testament until the resurrection. Thus much of what Jesus says He is saying to a people under the Law, and He Himself is under the Law. Thus many times after he healed someone he told them to go to the priests for ceremonial cleansing. You don't connect that to New Testament preaching, do you?

In (Matt. 7:23) Jesus did not say "I will not know you". He said "I never knew you". Thus this is not about a loss of salvation.

My view is that the Kingdom is not the Church. Thus everything said about the Kingdom may not pertain to the Church. And the book of Matthew more than any other Gospel, is the book of the Kingdom.

And I know I will not convince you either. But whenever I respond to questions this is the lens I am seeing through.

Stranger

 

[Zachary]

... the question is, why do you want to prove the foundation can move, which means it can fail?

I am here simply to WARN those believers who are deeply involved in habitual sin ...
that they are NOT going to heaven unless they sincerely repent and get their acts together!
The churches are NOT warning about this, so I am.

Jesus came to set believers FREE ... they no longer have to sin!
If they sin, it's by their own free-will choices.

 

[Helen]

I am here simply to WARN those believers who are deeply involved in habitual sin ...
that they are NOT going to heaven unless they sincerely repent and get their acts together!
The churches are NOT warning about this, so I am.

So you believe in "measures of sin"?!!!!! quote " deeply involved in".

James 2 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of ALL."
You obviously believe man's ability to keep the law...even though Jesus came because in 4000 no man could keep the law in their own strength!
I asked before...how is YOUR walk?
Are you walking in "sinless perfect yet?"
According to your own judgement of "not sinning"...are YOU "going to heaven"?

You preach sin and law...that is not the Gospel= Good News!!

 

[Zachary]

Here are some additional comments on 6 of the NT passages in the OP …

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter
into life maimed rather than having two hands and go to hell” (Mark 9:43)
Does Jesus go overboard in trying to express the incredible seriousness of sin?

“You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures
to the end (until his death) will be saved (eternally).” (Matthew 10:22)
There are about 15 NT verses which teach this spiritual Truth above.
And, enduring in the faith until death includes …
• Not falling away during the times of severe persecution of Christians
• Not submitting to the incredible pressure of taking the dreaded mark of the beast
Both of these severe TESTS will be coming upon professing Christians soon!
Re: taking the mark, be sure you read the eternal consequences in Rev.13-14.

“Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)
Sin brings forth eternal death upon believers also, unless it is repented of!
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Repentance includes all of the following: the sorrow over committing the sin,
the confessing it to God, the asking forgiveness for it, the stopping of doing it.

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10)
“He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
Many believers have been deceived by the gospel of hyper-grace, the “Me gospel”.
They have been deceived into believing that they have been made
FOREVER righteous because of what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
They have NOT been made FOREVER anything by God’s free gift of grace.
They have NOT been made FOREVER justified, righteous, sanctified, saved, etc.
NO GUARANTEES is what the NT teaches! … because …
We see that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL – all throughout the whole Bible!
Warning: gifts can be taken back, seals can be broken, etc.
Because believers are required to do their part in their salvation.
They are required to co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit.
And the opposite of this is the most-deadly practicing of habitual (unrepentant) sin!

“And do NOT present your member as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
but present yourselves to God … as instruments of righteousness to God.
… Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness? … so now
present your bodies as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
… For the end of those things (past sins) is (eternal) death.
... For the wages of sin is (eternal) death,
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:13—23)
Paul is writing to born-again believers in Rome (who are strangers to him).
He warns them: sinning, being slaves of sin, being unrighteous – leads to eternal death!
Attention: believers just do NOT understand Paul’s method of writing to the churches.
It is all about being tactful, so he will be welcome to visit them (and teach them more).
Paul mixes his warnings in amongst his MANY edifications, exhortations, blessings, etc.
And he leaves it up to the precious Holy Spirit to reveal the deep meaning of Scripture.
Warning: deceived believers are mistakenly taught to focus on the last line above,
and they just do not realize that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL,
which is seen all throughout the whole entire Bible!

Believers are taught that passages such as the Romans 6 simply do NOT apply to them!
The churches do NOT want to get the troops upset …
because the troops come trooping in every Sunday with their tithes!
To be fair, some church leadership are not this way … they have just been
deceived by the greatest lair and deceiver in history, whose name is Satan!

 

[Stranger]

Here are some additional comments on 6 of the NT passages in the OP …

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter
into life maimed rather than having two hands and go to hell” (Mark 9:43)
Does Jesus go overboard in trying to express the incredible seriousness of sin?

“You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures
to the end (until his death) will be saved (eternally).” (Matthew 10:22)
There are about 15 NT verses which teach this spiritual Truth above.
And, enduring in the faith until death includes …
• Not falling away during the times of severe persecution of Christians
• Not submitting to the incredible pressure of taking the dreaded mark of the beast
Both of these severe TESTS will be coming upon professing Christians soon!
Re: taking the mark, be sure you read the eternal consequences in Rev.13-14.

“Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)
Sin brings forth eternal death upon believers also, unless it is repented of!
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Repentance includes all of the following: the sorrow over committing the sin,
the confessing it to God, the asking forgiveness for it, the stopping of doing it.

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10)
“He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
Many believers have been deceived by the gospel of hyper-grace, the “Me gospel”.
They have been deceived into believing that they have been made
FOREVER righteous because of what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
They have NOT been made FOREVER anything by God’s free gift of grace.
They have NOT been made FOREVER justified, righteous, sanctified, saved, etc.
NO GUARANTEES is what the NT teaches! … because …
We see that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL – all throughout the whole Bible!
Warning: gifts can be taken back, seals can be broken, etc.
Because believers are required to do their part in their salvation.
They are required to co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit.
And the opposite of this is the most-deadly practicing of habitual (unrepentant) sin!

“And do NOT present your member as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
but present yourselves to God … as instruments of righteousness to God.
… Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness? … so now
present your bodies as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
… For the end of those things (past sins) is (eternal) death.
... For the wages of sin is (eternal) death,
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:13—23)
Paul is writing to born-again believers in Rome (who are strangers to him).
He warns them: sinning, being slaves of sin, being unrighteous – leads to eternal death!
Attention: believers just do NOT understand Paul’s method of writing to the churches.
It is all about being tactful, so he will be welcome to visit them (and teach them more).
Paul mixes his warnings in amongst his MANY edifications, exhortations, blessings, etc.
And he leaves it up to the precious Holy Spirit to reveal the deep meaning of Scripture.
Warning: deceived believers are mistakenly taught to focus on the last line above,
and they just do not realize that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL,
which is seen all throughout the whole entire Bible!

Believers are taught that passages such as the Romans 6 simply do NOT apply to them!
The churches do NOT want to get the troops upset …
because the troops come trooping in every Sunday with their tithes!
To be fair, some church leadership are not this way … they have just been
deceived by the greatest lair and deceiver in history, whose name is Satan!

Your parenthesis in (Rom. 6) is a joke. You added it because it because it is not there. What a joke you are.

Stranger