Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[Ferris Bueller]

well, that’s one of my struggles. It’s double mindedness I think. It’s also seen in exodus. They trusted He would save them and then proceeded to not trust Him for anything else. So He eventually lost patience. He was not happy that they didn’t continue in trust.

I think you have very good insight into the matter.

So don’t we do the same thing they did? Trust Him to save us but then don’t trust Him for provision. It’s the same exact thing.

It is the same thing. And God remained faithful. What they didn't do was go back to Egypt. Yes, there's more to the story than that, but the point is there is a difference between whining in the desert in unfaithfulness, trudging toward the promises of God, and abandoning the promises altogether and going back to Egypt.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think the point for this discussion is you had to come back in order to be saved. Yes, God pursued you, and so was 'with you' that way, but I think it wrong to think that meant you were saved during that time. Had you died in your unbelief (if that was actually the condition you were in) you would have died in an unsaved state and would not be saved when Jesus returns.

This is another point where things go sideways for me and I think it is the root of a lot of difficulty in these discussions. I think it may be in the back of many minds that we slip in and out of a "saved" condition for unspecified periods of time (days, weeks, years). I don't believe this is the case at all. I believe when a person has been touched by the Spirit of God and has responded in a positive manner, Christ becomes his Sacrifice and High Priest and undertakes the sinner's case until he dies.

Whether he is ultimately saved or not is known by God from eternity past, so there is no need for a constant updating of status. I say this last part because it is possible for a Christian to backslide many times during his life. I'm not sure I could give satisfactory (to others) evidence for this theory, but I believe it to be so from my overall Bible study experience.

 

[BarneyFife]

John begs to differ with. He says not to be deceived by people about this.

But I want to point out that you are making a very serious error by thinking that not being able to trust God for daily provision is somehow rejecting the blood of Christ in salvation. Do not ever beat yourself up that way. The progress of the believer's faith is to get them to trust God in daily life the same way they have trusted him with their eternal destiny.

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?" Romans 8:32

You gotta love this!

 

[Tong2020]

well, that’s one of my struggles. It’s double mindedness I think. It’s also seen in exodus. They trusted He would save them and then proceeded to not trust Him for anything else. So He eventually lost patience. He was not happy that they didn’t continue in trust.

So don’t we do the same thing they did? Trust Him to save us but then don’t trust Him for provision. It’s the same exact thing.

I am sure the words of Jesus will comfort you on that.

Jesus said “do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.”

Tong
R4227

 

[BarneyFife]

Oh, and he hated Jews and said they should be killed. Was that before or after his conversion from being a Catholic to being a Protester? I'm curious.

I think it was after. He thunderously roared about his "justification by faith" discovery, and for good reason. Anything that even slightly seemed to cut across it he denounced as anathema.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Ferris Bueller @stunnedbygrace

I stopped having money worries after seriously learning (I forget exactly the circumstances, teachers, etc.--it's all in the Bible, anyway) that everything I thought I owned actually belongs to God (wife, kids, house, car, pets, you name it--it's His) and as long as I try to live by His financial principles, there literally is nothing to worry about, e.g. although I do my due diligence to be a faithful steward, I don't have to worry about the maintenance of His car, because it's not mine, it's His; it's really His car! Did I mention the car belongs to God?

Psalm 50
9I will not take a bull from your house,
Nor goats out of your folds.
10For every beast of the forest is Mine,
And the cattle on a thousand hills.
11I know all the birds of the mountains,
And the wild beasts of the field are Mine.
12“If I were hungry, I would not tell you;
For the world is Mine, and all its fullness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Did you leave him in regard to trusting him for daily life and provision, or left him in regard to holding firmly to the gospel about the forgiveness of your sin? That is the important question here. You can be unfaithful to Jesus in your saved state, but you can not deny Him outright in regard to salvation itself and still be in the saved state you are rejecting. 2 Timothy 2:12-13.

Ah, no, everything in me shrinks in abhorrence from what you have said here.
If my trust is what He saves me by, any single instance of not trusting Him, on any matter, should be very egregious to me. To me, it’s like you’ve said…a little cheating is okay.

He asks one thing from me, only ONE. Trust Me. Trust everything I’ve said.

My gosh, this entire world of misery was caused by 2 people not trusting what He had said…

 

[BarneyFife]

a little cheating is okay

I'm not sure I understand this. And I think it's where @marks and @Blood Bought 1953 have trouble, too. Perhaps it's just a figure of speech?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In fact, my many years of misery were caused by not trusting just ONE of the things He said - that He would finish the work He began in me.

No, ANY small point of mistrust in Him and reliance on myself is so dangerous and egregious and full of misery that I cannot ever accept what you said there Ferris.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

On my gosh, we are in a race of trust. We are dragged in every other direction BUT that.

It is through actual trust that men survived fire and lions and saw miracles that we don’t see, yet we think ourselves better off than them with not even a millimeter of that same trust.

They were the giants of trust. What we are is almost dead compared to them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ah, no, everything in me shrinks in abhorrence from what you have said here.
If my trust is what He saves me by, any single instance of not trusting Him, on any matter, should be very egregious to me. To me, it’s like you’ve said…a little cheating is okay.

He asks one thing from me, only ONE. Trust Me. Trust everything I’ve said.

My gosh, this entire world of misery was caused by 2 people not trusting what He had said…

Then you're lost. There's no hope for you. Don't you realize that's what you're saying?

 

[marks]

"See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many."--How could that apply to an unbeliever? @marks ? @Blood Bought 1953 ?

He quotes, "see that no one falls short of the grace of God", but responds with a comment re falling from grace. Subtle changes like this can created tangles.

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

In fact, my many years of misery were caused by not trusting just ONE of the things He said - that He would finish the work He began in me.

No, ANY small point of mistrust in Him and reliance on myself is so dangerous and egregious and full of misery that I cannot ever accept what you said there Ferris.

Yes, we have confidence that God who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. But it seems this is not what @Ferris Bueller believes.

Tong
R4228

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Then you're lost. There's no hope for you. Don't you realize that's what you're saying?

And here we have come full circle and the mistake can be seen. A woman says she must fully and completely trust everything God has said and the response is, then you are lost and there’s no hope for you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God will cancel this deal we have made to cheat death, so let it go and just run the race of trust to win. Leave all judgement of yourself to Him and run! Run to trust more and more! You can never ever trust Him too much.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And here we have come full circle and the mistake can be seen. A woman says she must fully and completely trust everything God has said and the response is, then you are lost and there’s no hope for you.

What a woman needs to fully trust is that God forgives her sins through the Sacrifice and Ministry of Jesus Christ! That is the trusting that determines her fate now and at the return of Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

You will have to find another fish grail hunter. The one you are trying to catch already got caught up in that misery and escaped it. You can’t get into the sheep pen without going through the gate and that gate is trust. I will never again try to get there any other way, no matter HOW badly I want to be good.

Why would you consider Christ misery?
Why would you consider scripture misery?
Why would you consider truth misery?

Maybe one day they will make a Bible just for OSAS. Of course they would have to suck all the truth out it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Leave all judgement of yourself to Him and run!

Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." 1 Corinthians 11:31-32​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, we have confidence that God who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. But it seems this is not what @Ferris Bueller believes.

As long as you hold firmly to the gospel word, in faith, God will work to the day of your death to bring you to maturity according to the stature of Christ. Don't do like BB does and leave part of my argument out.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No, ANY small point of mistrust in Him and reliance on myself is so dangerous and egregious and full of misery that I cannot ever accept what you said there Ferris.

But not in regard to your salvation. Unless that small point of mistrust is in regard to whether or not your sins are really forgiven by God.