Heresy within Christianity

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Grailhunter

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Yep! Bring it on!! :D
Starting with the Old Testament.
Keep the sabbath holy.....that is Saturday....what is your sabbath?
No graven images....Do you watch TV....have photos of your family?
You shall have no other God before me....What about Yeshua and the Holy Spirit? If you say God was a trio in the Old Testament I want examples of specific conversions between them....or He naming them....or He directing His Son by name, to do something. Or that the verse Here O' Israel the Lord thy God is one....and verse that explains specifically that that one=three.
Do you practice polygamy?
Do you sell your daughters in concubinage?
If your daughter is raped and does not scream, should she be killed along with her raper?
Should our soldiers keep the virgins of our enemies and kill all that breaths and not forget the babies?
 

Paul Christensen

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Starting with the Old Testament.
Keep the sabbath holy.....that is Saturday....what is your sabbath?
I don't observe it because I am not Jewish. When the Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom, the Old Jewish Covenant was abolished and so having to observe the Jewish Sabbath went into history.
No graven images....Do you watch TV....have photos of your family?
The Bible says that one is not to make graven images in order to worship them in place of God. I don't worship photos of my family, nor do I pray to or worship the TV, and I don't have pictures of Jesus or depictions of God in my home.
You shall have no other God before me....What about Yeshua and the Holy Spirit?
All three are God. The Hebrew word for "God" is a plural word, and there are several references where God refers to Himself as "us". Why do you think that God refers to himself in that way?
If you say God was a trio in the Old Testament I want examples of specific conversions between them....or He naming them....or He directing His Son by name, to do something.
Genesis 3 after Adam's disobedience where God said that the tree of life needs to be barred to Adam and Eve, because "they have become like us", at the tower of Babel God said, "Let us go down and confuse their languages, otherwise there is no limit to what they will do". Also the Bible says that no man has seen the Father at any time. So, the appearances of God in the Old Testament has to be the Son. And at the baptism of Jesus, the Holy Spirit appeared in bodily form, and the Father's voice was heard from heaven.
Or that the verse Here O' Israel the Lord thy God is one
That is because that is the way the Israelites and Jews perceived God in their time - although if they read Moses careful when God refers to Himself as "us", they would get some clue but they may not have had a full understanding of it.
....and verse that explains specifically that that one=three.
Although there is no actual verse that says it, there are plenty of events where it was obvious that God was more than one.
Do you practice polygamy?
No. God's standard as shown in Genesis was that there was one man and one woman in a marriage. Once sin entered into the world, ancient people including Israelites did not maintain that standard. It is significant that the Jews once they returned to Israel during Ezra's time no longer practiced polygamy.
Do you sell your daughters in concubinage?
Never God's standard. If it happened in Israel it was because they were copying the idolatrous nations around them.
If your daughter is raped and does not scream, should she be killed along with her raper?
Gentile Christians are not under Mosaic Law. Under NZ Law if a woman says "No" then that is enough to have a rapist charged and convicted and the woman is proved innocent. The main defence by rapists is that they engaged in consensual sex, but if the woman testified that she said "No" and the judge decides that she is the more credible witness, she will be believed. In my work in the District Court I sat through quite a number of defended hearings, and the judge was well able to work out who was telling the truth or lying, because the liar would change the story under cross examination. It works both ways however, where a witness whose testimony is inconsistent can cause the case to be dismissed.
Should our soldiers keep the virgins of our enemies and kill all that breaths and not forget the babies?
The reason why that happened in Canaan was because over hundreds of years, the sinfulness of the people became such that they had to suffer the consequences. We must remember that the same happened with the global Flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah. However, physical death does not mean oblivion. After death each individual must stand before God in the judgment and give an account of their lives, as you and I will do one day.

By the way, can you answer my question that I put to our friend in the post before yours about whether death existed before Adam's fall?
 

Grailhunter

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I don't observe it because I am not Jewish. When the Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom, the Old Jewish Covenant was abolished and so having to observe the Jewish Sabbath went into history.
The Bible says that one is not to make graven images in order to worship them in place of God. I don't worship photos of my family, nor do I pray to or worship the TV, and I don't have pictures of Jesus or depictions of God in my home.
All three are God. The Hebrew word for "God" is a plural word, and there are several references where God refers to Himself as "us". Why do you think that God refers to himself in that way?
Genesis 3 after Adam's disobedience where God said that the tree of life needs to be barred to Adam and Eve, because "they have become like us", at the tower of Babel God said, "Let us go down and confuse their languages, otherwise there is no limit to what they will do". Also the Bible says that no man has seen the Father at any time. So, the appearances of God in the Old Testament has to be the Son. And at the baptism of Jesus, the Holy Spirit appeared in bodily form, and the Father's voice was heard from heaven.
That is because that is the way the Israelites and Jews perceived God in their time - although if they read Moses careful when God refers to Himself as "us", they would get some clue but they may not have had a full understanding of it.
Although there is no actual verse that says it, there are plenty of events where it was obvious that God was more than one.
No. God's standard as shown in Genesis was that there was one man and one woman in a marriage. Once sin entered into the world, ancient people including Israelites did not maintain that standard. It is significant that the Jews once they returned to Israel during Ezra's time no longer practiced polygamy.
Never God's standard. If it happened in Israel it was because they were copying the idolatrous nations around them.
Gentile Christians are not under Mosaic Law. Under NZ Law if a woman says "No" then that is enough to have a rapist charged and convicted and the woman is proved innocent. The main defence by rapists is that they engaged in consensual sex, but if the woman testified that she said "No" and the judge decides that she is the more credible witness, she will be believed. In my work in the District Court I sat through quite a number of defended hearings, and the judge was well able to work out who was telling the truth or lying, because the liar would change the story under cross examination. It works both ways however, where a witness whose testimony is inconsistent can cause the case to be dismissed.
The reason why that happened in Canaan was because over hundreds of years, the sinfulness of the people became such that they had to suffer the consequences. We must remember that the same happened with the global Flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah. However, physical death does not mean oblivion. After death each individual must stand before God in the judgment and give an account of their lives, as you and I will do one day.

By the way, can you answer my question that I put to our friend in the post before yours about whether death existed before Adam's fall?
Starting with the Old Testament.
Keep the sabbath holy.....that is Saturday....what is your sabbath?
I don't observe it because I am not Jewish. When the Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom, the Old Jewish Covenant was abolished and so having to observe the Jewish Sabbath went into history.
What you are saying is true....but you also said-->My foundation is the literal text of the Bible where God is paramount and His Word is totally accurate and true. God has said what He meant, and meant what He said. His literal Word is not open to the judgment of man....So you are not Jewish....so does the "whole Old Testament go into history"?

The Bible says that one is not to make graven images in order to worship them in place of God.
lol lots of history to this and the scriptures....the Mosaic Law does not say that. Unless you are writing your own scriptures. What it actually says.....

Exodus 20:4
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 5:8
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

The scriptures make it clear we are not to worship idol, but also not to make any images of any kind in the first place.

All three are God. The Hebrew word for "God" is a plural word, and there are several references where God refers to Himself as "us". Why do you think that God refers to himself in that way?

Word studies I love them! The Hebrew word for God can be translated as ...God....god....gods....or goddess....but never as Gods with a capital G. The plural would be sacrilegious to the Jewish religion and the opposite of everything that God said about Himself in the Old Testament. And again if you say they are a trio....I want scriptures of them talking to each other and interacting with each other.

No. God's standard as shown in Genesis was that there was one man and one woman in a marriage.
That is an examples, not a standard or Law...The Law that God made, setup Laws to regulate polygamy and concubinage. He told King David that his many wives was due to his service to God...So now, your choir is to find the scripture that changes those Laws....Good luck...the Jews practiced polygamy for a thousand years after Christ's ministry. One of the reasons that Paul had to specify that a church leader had to be husband of one wife.

Never God's standard. If it happened in Israel it was because they were copying the idolatrous nations around them.
Wrong again...Not only a standard but a Mosaic Law.
Exodus 21:7-11
If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

If your daughter is raped and does not scream, should she be killed along with her raper?
I can see that with modern civil laws.....I am asking you why you do not do what you say...My foundation is the literal text of the Bible where God is paramount and His Word is totally accurate and true. God has said what He meant, and meant what He said. His literal Word is not open to the judgment of man....literal....literal.

The reason why that happened in Canaan was because over hundreds of years.......

Bank robbers justify what they do....worked with the district court....so you know this. Kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies....This did not just happen....this is the Mosaic Law that governs war.

Your question about Adam I will address next.
By the way so you understand the spirit of this discussion....I come across as stern sometimes but always know there is an element of humor and I love Christians....it really does not matter which denomination.
 

Grailhunter

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I have a further question to ask you:
Did death, suffering, and disease exist before Adam's fall?

Oh definitely. The dirt you stand on is the remanence of the cycle of life and death over billions of years. The planet started out as a rock and now it is carpeted with dirt.
 

Paul Christensen

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Starting with the Old Testament.
Keep the sabbath holy.....that is Saturday....what is your sabbath?
I don't observe it because I am not Jewish. When the Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom, the Old Jewish Covenant was abolished and so having to observe the Jewish Sabbath went into history.
What you are saying is true....but you also said-->My foundation is the literal text of the Bible where God is paramount and His Word is totally accurate and true. God has said what He meant, and meant what He said. His literal Word is not open to the judgment of man....So you are not Jewish....so does the "whole Old Testament go into history"?

The Bible says that one is not to make graven images in order to worship them in place of God.
lol lots of history to this and the scriptures....the Mosaic Law does not say that. Unless you are writing your own scriptures. What it actually says.....

Exodus 20:4
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 5:8
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

The scriptures make it clear we are not to worship idol, but also not to make any images of any kind in the first place.

All three are God. The Hebrew word for "God" is a plural word, and there are several references where God refers to Himself as "us". Why do you think that God refers to himself in that way?

Word studies I love them! The Hebrew word for God can be translated as ...God....god....gods....or goddess....but never as Gods with a capital G. The plural would be sacrilegious to the Jewish religion and the opposite of everything that God said about Himself in the Old Testament. And again if you say they are a trio....I want scriptures of them talking to each other and interacting with each other.

No. God's standard as shown in Genesis was that there was one man and one woman in a marriage.
That is an examples, not a standard or Law...The Law that God made, setup Laws to regulate polygamy and concubinage. He told King David that his many wives was due to his service to God...So now, your choir is to find the scripture that changes those Laws....Good luck...the Jews practiced polygamy for a thousand years after Christ's ministry. One of the reasons that Paul had to specify that a church leader had to be husband of one wife.

Never God's standard. If it happened in Israel it was because they were copying the idolatrous nations around them.
Wrong again...Not only a standard but a Mosaic Law.
Exodus 21:7-11
If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

If your daughter is raped and does not scream, should she be killed along with her raper?
I can see that with modern civil laws.....I am asking you why you do not do what you say...My foundation is the literal text of the Bible where God is paramount and His Word is totally accurate and true. God has said what He meant, and meant what He said. His literal Word is not open to the judgment of man....literal....literal.

The reason why that happened in Canaan was because over hundreds of years.......

Bank robbers justify what they do....worked with the district court....so you know this. Kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies....This did not just happen....this is the Mosaic Law that governs war.

Your question about Adam I will address next.
By the way so you understand the spirit of this discussion....I come across as stern sometimes but always know there is an element of humor and I love Christians....it really does not matter which denomination.
I don't think your questions are really honest, because you are not looking for answers from me at all. You are just wanting more ammunition for an argument.

The bottom line is that the answers to your questions are not as important as the big question: What is your attitude to Christ, and what is going to happen when you die, as we all will?
 

Paul Christensen

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I have a further question to ask you:
Did death, suffering, and disease exist before Adam's fall?

Oh definitely. The dirt you stand on is the remanence of the cycle of life and death over billions of years. The planet started out as a rock and now it is carpeted with dirt.
Then you are denying the Bible, and therefore are not born again of the Spirit of God, and all you have is a fearful looking forward to the judgment of God.
 

Grailhunter

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I don't think your questions are really honest, because you are not looking for answers from me at all. You are just wanting more ammunition for an argument.

The bottom line is that the answers to your questions are not as important as the big question: What is your attitude to Christ, and what is going to happen when you die, as we all will?
That is called dodging the issues.....all fun.
 

Grailhunter

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Then you are denying the Bible, and therefore are not born again of the Spirit of God, and all you have is a fearful looking forward to the judgment of God.
lol And you are the judge of that! Come on...don't give up now....there is more fun to be had!
 

Paul Christensen

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That is called dodging the issues.....all fun.
But in your last answer you denied the Bible. You are saying that death existed before Adam, when the Bible clearly states that death entered into the world as the result of Adam's disobedience. Therefore, the gospel of Christ can have no effect for you because you can't actually have saving faith from the Spirit of God unless you believe what God says in the Bible.

Actually you are trapped with nowhere to go, because if you had said that death came into existence after Adam you would have to deny evolution, because the very nature of evolution depends on the death of species in order for natural selection to occur.
 

Paul Christensen

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lol And you are the judge of that! Come on...don't give up now....there is more fun to be had!
I'm not your judge. I am just repeating what the Bible says about you. This is what it says about those who don't believe what the Bible says, as you have just demonstrated:
"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

So, you will never understand what the Old Testament is all about while you are denying what the Bible clearly says about the very foundation of the gospel of Christ.
 

Paul Christensen

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lol And you are the judge of that! Come on...don't give up now....there is more fun to be had!
You see, when the Jewish leader Nicodemus came to see and talk with Jesus, Jesus told him that unless a person is born again he can never inherit the kingdom of God. In other words, unless you put your trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross which took the penalty of your sinful on Himself, and be converted to Christ, you will stay lost and will ultimately perish. This is the consequence of your denial of a real Adam who brought sin and death into the world because of his disobedience to God. If you don't believe that you are a sinner, then John says of you: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).
This means that you saying that there was no such disobedience of a real Adam which caused everyone after him to be infected by sin, then you have to say that you have no sin in you, and the Bible says you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. This is not my judgment. It is God's judgment as stated in the Bible.

So, unless God in His mercy and grace, gives you the insight by His Holy Spirit into what the gospel of Christ is all about, and gives you saving faith to trust Christ, then you will stand guilty in the judgement.
 

Grailhunter

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But in your last answer you denied the Bible. You are saying that death existed before Adam, when the Bible clearly states that death entered into the world as the result of Adam's disobedience. Therefore, the gospel of Christ can have no effect for you because you can't actually have saving faith from the Spirit of God unless you believe what God says in the Bible.

Actually you are trapped with nowhere to go, because if you had said that death came into existence after Adam you would have to deny evolution, because the very nature of evolution depends on the death of species in order for natural selection to occur.
Not at all. Death came into existence for Adam and his kind due to his sin...A truth....not a contradiction at all. Again, the whole point of why I engaged you, is that the things you preach is going to destroy Christianity because it stands against reality and the youth will lose interest in it. We old timers can thump the Bible all the way to our grave, saying we believe every literal word, but as custodians of Christianity, if we put Christianity in a grave, we are no service to God. The Bible is not "A God" it is an ancient text written for an ancient people to understand....The Bible does not discuss automobiles, planes, or spaceships. But that does not mean that automobiles, planes, or spaceships are not real or that the Bible is wrong. It is what it is. Many truths in the Bible, inspired by God to explain things, in ways and terms that the people of the period would understand.
 

Grailhunter

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So lets take the literal into the New Testament.
Do you hate your mother and father?
Do you give away everything you own to be a follower of Christ?
Do you believe that if you sin after you are saved that there is no forgiveness for sin and repentance and salvation is not possible from there?
Do you think that Armageddon will be fought with horses and swords?
Do you think that debate and division of Christ's church will prevent people from inheriting the Kingdom of God?
 

Paul Christensen

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Not at all. Death came into existence for Adam and his kind due to his sin...A truth....not a contradiction at all.
But you said that death existed before Adam. This is a contradiction because when God created Adam, He looked over all His creation and saw that it was very good. So if death was present, do you think that God saw that death was very good? Paul says in Romans that death reign from Adam to Moses. He didn't say that it reigned from before Adam to Moses, so you can't say that death existed before Adam and then death came as the result of Adam's sin. It just doesn't make sense. (unless you are actually winding me up!)

Again, the whole point of why I engaged you, is that the things you preach is going to destroy Christianity because it stands against reality and the youth will lose interest in it.
Youth are losing interest in the church because the church cannot provide Biblical answers to counter the atheistic teaching they are getting in their schools and universities. And when the church itself teaches the same thing as they are getting in the secular world, then what is so different about the church that they should follow its instructions and rules for living? They might as well go out into the world where anything goes.

We old timers can thump the Bible all the way to our grave, saying we believe every literal word, but as custodians of Christianity, if we put Christianity in a grave, we are no service to God.
The gospel of Christ is simple and clear. We are all sinners, we deserve hell because we have broken the Ten Commandments and so we are not good, and will be found guilty in the judgment; but God sent Jesus to die on the cross to take the penalty for our sin upon Himself, so that when we turn away from our sin, trust in Christ, we will be saved and not lost. This is the gospel - very simple and uncomplicated. We don't have to thump Bibles to share it, all we have to do is to ask people if they think they are good, and then gauge their goodness by the Ten Commandments. Actually if you watch videos by Ray Comfort you will see that he does not use a Bible thumping approach when he shares the gospel with people.
The Bible is not "A God" it is an ancient text written for an ancient people to understand....The Bible does not discuss automobiles, planes, or spaceships. But that does not mean that automobiles, planes, or spaceships are not real or that the Bible is wrong.
Doesn't it? Look up about chariots with bright lights jostling each other on the broad ways. Look up the reference in Job about sending lightning which conveys a message. What is that? Radio communication! Also, look up the reference about when knowledge will increase and people will go to a fro. Wouldn't that be achieved by air travel? Yes, the Bible was written for the people of the time of the authors, but what it does say about scientific matters it is totally accurate.
It is what it is. Many truths in the Bible, inspired by God to explain things, in ways and terms that the people of the period would understand.
In actual fact, the Bible is God's inspired record of who He is, that He created the world and the cosmos, and His plan of salvation involving Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is chock full of references to Jesus Christ if you want to look for them. Peter, Paul and Apostles used the Old Testament to preach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.

My assertion is that if you are to be born again of the Spirit of God, you need to believe that the Bible is God's literal record, given to Holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit to write it down.

Actually Genesis 2:1-2 totally denies evolution. It says that God totally completed His creation on the sixth day, and when He had finished the work, He rested on the seventh. This is straight talk, not figurative, but clear narrative, and it totally destroys evolution, because the Bible clearly shows that no evolution of anything happened after the sixth day of creation.
 

Paul Christensen

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So lets take the literal into the New Testament.
Do you hate your mother and father?
Do you give away everything you own to be a follower of Christ?
Do you believe that if you sin after you are saved that there is no forgiveness for sin and repentance and salvation is not possible from there?
Do you think that Armageddon will be fought with horses and swords?
Do you think that debate and division of Christ's church will prevent people from inheriting the Kingdom of God?
If you were truly born again of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit Himself will give you those answers. I don't have to defend God's Word at all. Because the natural man, who is not born again, cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). This is not me saying it, but the Bible.

So, to get answers to those questions, you must be born again!
 

Grailhunter

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But you said that death existed before Adam. This is a contradiction because when God created Adam, He looked over all His creation and saw that it was very good. So if death was present, do you think that God saw that death was very good? Paul says in Romans that death reign from Adam to Moses. He didn't say that it reigned from before Adam to Moses, so you can't say that death existed before Adam and then death came as the result of Adam's sin. It just doesn't make sense. (unless you are actually winding me up!)

Youth are losing interest in the church because the church cannot provide Biblical answers to counter the atheistic teaching they are getting in their schools and universities. And when the church itself teaches the same thing as they are getting in the secular world, then what is so different about the church that they should follow its instructions and rules for living? They might as well go out into the world where anything goes.


The gospel of Christ is simple and clear. We are all sinners, we deserve hell because we have broken the Ten Commandments and so we are not good, and will be found guilty in the judgment; but God sent Jesus to die on the cross to take the penalty for our sin upon Himself, so that when we turn away from our sin, trust in Christ, we will be saved and not lost. This is the gospel - very simple and uncomplicated. We don't have to thump Bibles to share it, all we have to do is to ask people if they think they are good, and then gauge their goodness by the Ten Commandments. Actually if you watch videos by Ray Comfort you will see that he does not use a Bible thumping approach when he shares the gospel with people.

Doesn't it? Look up about chariots with bright lights jostling each other on the broad ways. Look up the reference in Job about sending lightning which conveys a message. What is that? Radio communication! Also, look up the reference about when knowledge will increase and people will go to a fro. Wouldn't that be achieved by air travel? Yes, the Bible was written for the people of the time of the authors, but what it does say about scientific matters it is totally accurate.

In actual fact, the Bible is God's inspired record of who He is, that He created the world and the cosmos, and His plan of salvation involving Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is chock full of references to Jesus Christ if you want to look for them. Peter, Paul and Apostles used the Old Testament to preach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.

My assertion is that if you are to be born again of the Spirit of God, you need to believe that the Bible is God's literal record, given to Holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit to write it down.

Actually Genesis 2:1-2 totally denies evolution. It says that God totally completed His creation on the sixth day, and when He had finished the work, He rested on the seventh. This is straight talk, not figurative, but clear narrative, and it totally destroys evolution, because the Bible clearly shows that no evolution of anything happened after the sixth day of creation.
But you said that death existed before Adam. This is a contradiction because when God created Adam.
God created the world before Adam....Nothing to support that idea that Adam and Eve walked out into a barren world.

Youth are losing interest in the church because the church cannot provide Biblical answers to counter the atheistic teaching they are getting in their schools and universities.
Ya, it is a human tendency to blame your faults on others. Then again universities are a whole different topic.

The gospel of Christ is simple and clear
True but still written for an ancient and primitive people.

gauge their goodness by the Ten Commandments.
Really? Are you one of those people that dissect the Law....discarding the other 603 Mosaic Laws. You know there are New Testament scriptures that speak against that...both Christ and Paul.

Doesn't it? Look up about chariots with bright lights jostling each other on the broad ways. Look up the reference in Job about sending lightning which conveys a message. What is that? Radio communication! Also, look up the reference about when knowledge will increase and people will go to a fro. Wouldn't that be achieved by air travel? Yes, the Bible was written for the people of the time of the authors, but what it does say about scientific matters it is totally accurate.
That is just funny....jet fighters in Revelation!

In actual fact, the Bible is God's inspired record of who He is, that He created the world and the cosmos, and His plan of salvation involving Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is chock full of references to Jesus Christ if you want to look for them. Peter, Paul and Apostles used the Old Testament to preach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.
Agreed...but still the inspired word of God, in the context of the understanding of an ancient and primitive people.

My assertion is that if you are to be born again of the Spirit of God, you need to believe that the Bible is God's literal record, given to Holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit to write it down.
You set the precepts and boundaries of salvation! Not my pay grade and not yours.
 

Paul Christensen

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But you said that death existed before Adam. This is a contradiction because when God created Adam.
God created the world before Adam....Nothing to support that idea that Adam and Eve walked out into a barren world.

Youth are losing interest in the church because the church cannot provide Biblical answers to counter the atheistic teaching they are getting in their schools and universities.
Ya, it is a human tendency to blame your faults on others. Then again universities are a whole different topic.

The gospel of Christ is simple and clear
True but still written for an ancient and primitive people.

gauge their goodness by the Ten Commandments.
Really? Are you one of those people that dissect the Law....discarding the other 603 Mosaic Laws. You know there are New Testament scriptures that speak against that...both Christ and Paul.

Doesn't it? Look up about chariots with bright lights jostling each other on the broad ways. Look up the reference in Job about sending lightning which conveys a message. What is that? Radio communication! Also, look up the reference about when knowledge will increase and people will go to a fro. Wouldn't that be achieved by air travel? Yes, the Bible was written for the people of the time of the authors, but what it does say about scientific matters it is totally accurate.
That is just funny....jet fighters in Revelation!

In actual fact, the Bible is God's inspired record of who He is, that He created the world and the cosmos, and His plan of salvation involving Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is chock full of references to Jesus Christ if you want to look for them. Peter, Paul and Apostles used the Old Testament to preach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.
Agreed...but still the inspired word of God, in the context of the understanding of an ancient and primitive people.

My assertion is that if you are to be born again of the Spirit of God, you need to believe that the Bible is God's literal record, given to Holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit to write it down.
You set the precepts and boundaries of salvation! Not my pay grade and not yours.
But you said that death existed before Adam. This is a contradiction because when God created Adam.
God created the world before Adam....Nothing to support that idea that Adam and Eve walked out into a barren world.

Youth are losing interest in the church because the church cannot provide Biblical answers to counter the atheistic teaching they are getting in their schools and universities.
Ya, it is a human tendency to blame your faults on others. Then again universities are a whole different topic.

The gospel of Christ is simple and clear
True but still written for an ancient and primitive people.

gauge their goodness by the Ten Commandments.
Really? Are you one of those people that dissect the Law....discarding the other 603 Mosaic Laws. You know there are New Testament scriptures that speak against that...both Christ and Paul.

Doesn't it? Look up about chariots with bright lights jostling each other on the broad ways. Look up the reference in Job about sending lightning which conveys a message. What is that? Radio communication! Also, look up the reference about when knowledge will increase and people will go to a fro. Wouldn't that be achieved by air travel? Yes, the Bible was written for the people of the time of the authors, but what it does say about scientific matters it is totally accurate.
That is just funny....jet fighters in Revelation!

In actual fact, the Bible is God's inspired record of who He is, that He created the world and the cosmos, and His plan of salvation involving Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is chock full of references to Jesus Christ if you want to look for them. Peter, Paul and Apostles used the Old Testament to preach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.
Agreed...but still the inspired word of God, in the context of the understanding of an ancient and primitive people.

My assertion is that if you are to be born again of the Spirit of God, you need to believe that the Bible is God's literal record, given to Holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit to write it down.
You set the precepts and boundaries of salvation! Not my pay grade and not yours.
It's not me who sets the boundaries of salvation. The Bible does. Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except by Him, and He said "You must be born again".

Also the Bible says that God will judge us according to the standard of the Ten Commandments. If we fail, then we will be guilty in the judgment and receive the penalty.

So, my question to you is, how good are you according to the standard?
 

Grailhunter

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It's not me who sets the boundaries of salvation. The Bible does. Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except by Him, and He said "You must be born again".

Also the Bible says that God will judge us according to the standard of the Ten Commandments. If we fail, then we will be guilty in the judgment and receive the penalty.

So, my question to you is, how good are you according to the standard?
The topic is not my or your salvation...its creation and evolution and how those beliefs affect the beliefs of the youth.
 

Yehren

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I have a further question to ask you:
Did death, suffering, and disease exist before Adam's fall?

Of course. You're confused about the "death" Adam brought into the world. It's not physical death. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree. Adam eats from the tree, but lives on physically for many years thereafter. So, if we can trust God to tell the truth, the death was a spiritual one, not a physical one. Adam and Eve were never immortal. God even expressed concern that they might become so, and makes sure that they do not.
 

Yehren

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Also the Bible says that God will judge us according to the standard of the Ten Commandments.

Well, let's take a look...

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.


There you are; laid out in detail how you will be judged. That's how He will determine your eternal home. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else, He says, depends on that.