HERESY?
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Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
I just gave you one. Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father are all present at the same time.
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
You don't seem to produce anything of any value worth discussing. Therefore, you are wasting my time.
Oh, the word rapture is not in the Bible either but I can guarantee you there are words that do indicate a "rapture" at the end of the world.
The End.
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Try meditating on these for a while...
Jesus is Eternal! Mat 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Now if the righteous recieve "eternal life" do you really think Jesus was denied eternal life even though he had commited NO SIN?
Jesus is as God, who is without end or beginning. God, in Exodus 3:14, referred to His eternal nature when He said, "I AM WHO I AM." A similar statement is made by Jesus concerning Himself in John 8:57-59:
"The Jews therefore said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?'
Jesus said, “I and My Father are one” (John 10:30)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev 1:8)
. .{Jesus}who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Hebrews 1:3)
. .{Jesus}who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Hebrews 1:3)
Even death could not stop the almighty Lord who is also “the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25).
Jesus even knew the thoughts of the scribes (Matthew 9:4)
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@Moriah's Song Father, Son and Holy Spirit are indeed overwhelmingly present in Scripture.
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
How is it that you accept the "opinions" of the Watchtower's commentators "doctrines of men" but reject the truths of God's Word instead?
Eph 4:14 - "...so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles."
From the Watchower's website....
- What Does the Bible Say About God and Jesus? (15 occurrences)
- What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.
No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God.
- ti pp. 12-16 - Trinity (ti)
- What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.
According to John
1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.*+
1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.*+
Why is "a god" heresy? Because the slight of hand is this:
First, the Watchtower uses the term "a god" instead of "God" (even though it is also a plural word) whereas all Christian churches use "the Word was God."
Vine's Expository Dictionary (as well as lexicons) say this...
Strong’s Definitions G3588) θεός theós: the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
Outline of Biblical Usage
- a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
- the Godhead, trinity
- God the Father, the first person in the trinity
- Christ, the second person of the trinity
- Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
Mat 3:16-17..."And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice [God's] from heaven, saying, "This is [my-God's] beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Since the Watchtower claims that "Jesus was a created being" where His existance in bodily form I am remined of the verse in Genesis 3:15 where it says...
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he [Jesus] shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise [Jesus'] heel."
Now here we see the fulfillment of that Genesis prophecy in both Matthew and Luke - with slight variations that gives us intriging insight from both writers...
Mat 1:23..."Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).
Luk 1:31...And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
First Matthew says that Mary's child will be named "Emmanuel (God) with us and then Luke is saying that Mary's child will be named "Jesus" and yet there was only ONE person that Mary gave birth to before having other children.Luk 1:31...And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
The obvious conslusion of the "seed" in Genesis is the "seed" in Matthew and Luke. Therefore, Jesus could not possibly have been "created" at birth because Jesus was also the "Tree of Life" in the Garden of Eden which indicates "eternal life." Remember when Jesus said...."Before Abraham was, I AM!" I am means "I was in the past, am in the present, and am in the future; all at the same time....(omnipresence)
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Strawman. Jesus died. This is how we know he is not God for it means that Jesus is changing, not eternal.
Jesus knows he is not God and talked about his God with good reason. Just today I was reading Rev 3. He talks about his God over and over and over again. Jesus' God is the only God.
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Whether or not you continue to deny the truth of the trinity in Matthew and others is your problem not mine. Only on the last day, will my belief be upheld.
This one is not a Strawman by any means. Denying that Jesus is not eternal is a whole different ballgame and has extremely serious end times consequences to it.
Also, end times heresies such as Jesus was a "created" being as the originaltor, Charles Taze Russell of the Watchtower says will be burnt along with all other cultic doctrines -- including all his followers
Claiming that "Jesus is a changing Savior, King, Priest and Prophet" is just as much of a heresy as those two above --- much to their demise at the end.
Heb 7:22...This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant....24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever.
I did not write these two verses that you completely ignored which will also to be determined who is correct in their beliefs and where one will be taken to on the last day...
Mat 1:23..."Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).
Luk 1:31...And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.Emmanuel = God with us = his name is Jesus.
It is there in black and white; written by two writers who were divinely ispired by the Holy Spirit.
1Th 1:6...And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;
2Ti 3:16...All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
Eph 3:21...to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Just thought I'd catch up on a few things that needed to be said...and this one I missed...
Seems to me you continue to ignore the truth of God's Word but I think this in Colossians sums it up pretty well...
Col 1:15...[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. (Note: first-born does not mean "create.") [Jesus] is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [Jesus]is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in [Jesus] all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,and through [Jesus] to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
How to interpret unitarian text from a unitarian perspective, given explicit unitarian verses, such as For us, there is one God the Father?
In the verse you cite above, the most important fact is that it reinforces that Jesus is not God. The text proof is that it explicitly states God is invisible while Jesus is not. A reflection of a thing is not that thing.
Seriously, the trinitarian attempts to support their doctrine from unitarian text is more laughable and desperate as the conversation flows.
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If the Holy Spirit and God the Father are all present at the same time.... Then WHY does Jesus have a GOD???
Why does Jesus need a God to give him revelation?
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him
Why does Jesus need his God to raise him from the Dead...
Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.... 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Did Jesus really die? Of course he did. The Bible states that fact in many verses. The Bible also states that only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16: "Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see."
Not to mention the fact that this verse says that no one has or can see God. Yet, Thousands of people saw Jesus.
Now let’s take a look at one of the many verses that speak of God raising Jesus. Acts 2:32 states:
"God raised this Jesus"
Who raised this Jesus? GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. A huge problem arises with this absurd idea in that the forgiveness of our sins comes only through the death of Jesus Christ as the Bible states. If Jesus is God then there was no real death because God is raising Jesus. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong. Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of the creeds?
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Rev 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
When Jesus say's My God... You better pay more attention than you are when you claim he's talking about Himself!!!
That is not even the issue. The issue is this: Why is Jesus not YOUR God if the apostle Thomas acknowledged Him as "My Lord and My GOD!"
When you stand before Jesus as your Judge this is the only question that will matter. Therefore you should repent and be converted.
Wow.... Where did this Verse from John teaching us all that Jesus is God come from....? I mean John must have really wanted to make a point of something for sure!!! In fact... he tells you why he wrote that verse... just 3 verses later... Wow... So what point was John Making... lets look just 3 more verses. Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
What??? Really, what a disappointment!!! John could have saved a lot of ink and written... but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is God. But sadly not so... So what was john saying???
There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God. When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, and not a 20th century mind. Some language can mean something to us that it did not mean back then. For example, if an Englishman says, "I am mad about my flat" he means that he is exited about his apartment. To an American, that same phrase means that he is angry about his flat tire. The word "God" for example, means to us in the 20th century "The Almighty God." To a Jew it did not necessarily mean "Almighty God." In Psalms 82: 1 & 6 God refers to earthly rulers as gods. This is the same passage that Jesus quotes to the Jews when they accuse him of saying that he is God. Paraphrasing Jesus, he says to them; "If it is okay to call men gods, why is it blasphemous for me to say that I am the Son of God"(John 10: 33 - 38). Notice how when Jesus is accused of being God, he quickly corrects them that he is not God, but the Son of God. In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!
John even tells us just 3 verses later why he wrote about Thomas story… In John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. If Thomas was really calling Jesus GOD almighty then John just contradicted why he wrote his writings.
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church points out what an early Christian father, Origen (185-254 AD) says about the word "God." "The Son is theos (God), but only the Father is autotheos" (absolute God, God in himself).
This is the reason there is an Almighty God or a Most High God, in order to differentiate the only true God from the others. Another fact to consider when approaching this verse is to understand whom John believes God and Jesus to be.
John wrote his gospel to testify that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Let us take a look again at what John believes in order to not take one verse and unjustly imply a certain belief on John.
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father"
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"
Remember that John’s whole purpose for writing his Gospel is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God.
"But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God" (John 20: 31).
We must keep John's reason for writing his gospel fresh in our minds as we try to understand this verse. In his gospel, John distinguishes completely between the only true God and Jesus Christ To imply that John believed in a three in one God would be to do a terrible injustice to John.
So what does Thomas mean? To us in the modern world it might at first seem odd, but when you put yourself in Thomas’s place as a Jew in Jesus’ day, it will make all the sense in the world.
The Catholic New American Bible defines this usage of the word god:
"The king, in courtly language is called god, representing God to the people."
Aspects of Monotheism states: "god" is an allegorical equivalent for "king."
This is the definition of the Messiah. The Messiah is the king of Israel who represents God to the people (John 1:49). Thomas was just stating that fact. When he saw Jesus resurrected, it proved to him that He was indeed the Messiah. Thomas’ statement is the equivalent of saying, My Lord and my king. This is not just my opinion; it is easily verified in the Old Testament. Remember, God = king = Messiah.
This kind of language was common in those days. Let’s look at a similar verse.
1 Samuel 24:9 states:
"David also stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, "My lord and my king."
My lord and my God = My lord and my king.
This verse mean the same thing. Thomas is addressing the king of Israel in exactly the same way that David did. You just have to speak like a first century Jew.
Luke 2:11 states:
"A savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."
Acts 2:36 states:
"God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Lord and Messiah = Lord and king = Lord and God.
There is for me one great proof that Thomas did not mean Jesus is Almighty God when he called Jesus God. When Thomas called Jesus "My lord and my God " all the Apostles were in the room. If this statement is true, then it is logical to assume that from now on, all the Apostles know that Jesus is really God. So from that point onward Jesus should be addressed as God. But as you can see in all the writings of the New Testament, none of the Apostles ever refer to Jesus as Almighty God or YHWH . Not once in the entire New Testament do they ever pray to Jesus. They make clear distinctions between the two. They in fact write about the God of Jesus Christ (John 20:17). Remember, "No one has ever seen God" (1 John 4: 12). Same author.
Do you realize that you are just full of HOT AIR AND PURE BALONEY?
The first verse in the Gospel of John testifies that Jesus is GOD.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Theos).
I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?
It is a fact that all English translations from the Greek before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: (notice Him and He are now “It”).
Tyndale 1534:
Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it andwith out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
Cranmer 1539
John 1:1 IN the begynnynge was the worde and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it and without it, was made nothynge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was the lyght of men
Bishops 1568:
Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnynge with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,
Geneva 1587:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it ! The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), “question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14), "message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an “it.”
In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.
"The Word" for John is an “it” not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's
prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh.
There is even strong evidence suggesting that John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in
the beginning was not a “who” he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life…"
Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14. who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he
saw. (Rev 1:2)
"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)
Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God.
Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.
John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word (logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!
Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. Jesus is not our Judge, but our savior!
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He ( God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?
Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an
external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New
American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).
According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:
Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.
I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"
"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."
The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:
"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."
Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).
So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:
"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."
With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.
John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!
Can you show me the scripture that teaches this or are you teaching the traditions of men?
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
why does it need be in scripture?
Christ and his church are the source of truth! The rule of our faith!
we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)
Christ and His church are one!
God cannot reveal error and the church cannot teach error!
Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)
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