Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[Zao is life]

@Spiritual Israelite @WPM All those among us who believe the Word of God in Jesus Christ need to understand that Satan has never and will never receive his power to deceive the nations from God. He receives his power to deceive the nations from created human beings when created human beings give him that power through believing (placing their faith in) the words of 'spiritual enlightenment' that originate in the father of lies, which are offered in opposition to the Word of God (Truth).

Satan has never been able to stop the spread of the gospel. Abel believed God and in the promise of the gospel, and God accepted His sacrifice. Noah believed God and in the gospel of the coming seed, and "being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Abraham believed God and in the gospel of the promised seed, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

Satan is not judged by God for the power created human beings have given him to deceive the nations - because God knows - and has told us - that the reason why created human beings give Satan power to deceive the nations is because some (many) of them LOVE DARKNESS rather than THE LIGHT, and this is BECAUSE THEIR deeds are evil (John 3:19).

in the Garden of Eden Satan was bound from offering his words of 'spiritual enlightenment' to created human beings in opposition to the Word of God (Truth) until the day God permitted him to do so. God withdrawing permission from the father of lies to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' to created human beings is what binds him - but he still receives no power to deceive the nations UNTIL his lying words of 'spiritual enlightenment' are believed by created human beings.

You know - we who believe in Jesus all know - that the day those created human beings believed his words of 'spiritual enlightenment' - which are always offered in opposition to the Word of God (Truth), those created human beings died - death came into their created bodies.

Created human beings who believe in (place their faith in) the Word of God who has become a human being (who is begotten, not created), who died for the sins of created human beings, and is risen from the dead, have passed from death to life.

But those created human beings who continue to give Satan power to deceive the nations through believing (placing their faith in) the words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which oppose the Word of God and which ALL originate in the father of lies, are condemned - because the reason they do so is because they LOVE DARKNESS rather than THE LIGHT, and this is BECAUSE THEIR deeds are evil.

So God has told us by what criteria created human beings will be judged either unto eternal life, or unto condemnation, and this status quo will continue for as long as God permits the words of 'spiritual enlightenment' originating in the father of ALL lies to be offered to created human beings.

For the first thousand years of the ages of the ages after our Savior has returned there will be no words of 'spiritual enlightenment' to oppose the Word of God, because God will not permit it to be so, and all those who are alive will have been resurrected from the dead bodily, each living in his own immortal body - just like Adam and and Eve were, before they sinned.

At the close of the thousand years God will permit the father of lies one last time to offer created human beings words of 'spiritual enlightnement' which oppose the Word of God (Truth) and imply that God is a liar

- so that each and every individual created human being which God created in His own image can be finally tested in order to ascertain how deep in himself the root of faith in the Word of God has been allowed by the individual to sink into his soul.

God has promised only those who overcome that Christ will not blot their names out of the book of life and that the second death will have no authority over them - and the God who created us is able to destroy both soul and body in the lake of fire. Jesus told us to fear Him. ​

AN ADVERSARY EXISTING IN A KING'S KINGDOM​

It's logical that if a king has an adversary in his kingdom who is causing disruption, killing or harming the king's subjects, deceiving as many as he can, continuously encouraging dissent against the king and continuously calling the king's authority and integrity into question,

then if the king wants to put a stop to it, he would need to either bind the adversary and lock him in a dungeon, rendering the adversary completely unable to cause more harm, or simply destroy the adversary,

but if the king in his wisdom and sovereign will continues to permit the adversary for a season and a time to continue, whether it be in order to separate the king's loyal and faithful subjects from his adversaries or for any other reason, then this choice and decision is within the king's sovereign right.​

 

[Zao is life]

How can you conclude that destroying Satan's works is not related to his ability to deceive the nations? What exactly do you think are "Satan's works" then?

How can you conclude that Satan's works are "his ability to deceive the nations" despite the Word of God having told you that it is created human beings that give Satan the power to deceive the nations - through their belief in the words of 'spiritual enlightenment" = ALL of which he is the father of - and that this is because even though THE LIGHT has come into the world, some (many) LOVE darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

Satan has NO POWER to deceive the nations unless and until human beings believe his words of 'spiritual enlightenment'. Your assertion contradicts the Word of God in Christ.

Scripture tells you that Christ's death and resurrection has destroyed sin and death - and hence has destroyed Satan's power over death and taken away the indictment he had - the broken law and commandments - to accuse the brethren before God. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POWER CREATED HUMAN BEINGS GIVE HIM TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS THROUGH THE FAITH THE NATIONS PLACE IN HIS WORDS OF 'SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT'.

Satan was bound from deceiving mankind in the Garden of Eden until the day God PERMITTED HIM to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which opposed the Word of God - and even then his power to deceive the nations needed to be given him BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH THEIR BELIEF OF HIS WORDS.

Revelation 20:1-3 does not tell you that Satan will be bound from "preventing the spread of the gospel" "through his deception of the nations". Those are words you have added to scripture.

Satan has never been able to stop the spread of the gospel: Abel believed God and in the promise of the gospel, and God accepted His sacrifice (Genesis 4:2-4). Noah believed God and in the gospel of the coming seed, and "being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7). - and Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites). Abraham believed God and in the gospel of the promised seed, and it was credited to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23) - and Abraham is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites).

Satan is not judged by God for the power that created human beings have given him to deceive the nations - because God knows - and has told us - that the reason why created human beings give Satan power to deceive the nations is because some (many) of them LOVE darkness rather than THE LIGHT, and this is because THEIR deeds are evil (John 3:19).

Satan has power to deceive the nations as long as he is GIVEN that power BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS WHO LOVE DARKNESS RATHER THAN THE LIGHT, and for as long as the darkness which originates in the father of ALL lies is PERMITTED BY GOD to be offered IN THE WORLD as alternative "truth" to THE TRUTH.

To equate or even to link Satan's power to deceive the nations with Christ's power to destroy sin and death is a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us.

 

[Zao is life]

How are you not aware that the person you said this to has not been civil and has been rude on many occasions? Are you letting him off the hook just because he is pre-trib?

It's called duplicity. What @marks is doing lately is following those who disagree with his doctrines around so as to target only one (or maybe two) people who don't agree with the doctrines he believes, for the criticism he is dishing out - so that he can make only that person or those people out to be bad people.

Bad, bad bad people!

He's become obsessed with this - and he has become obesessed with this for the above motive. The cure for him would be for him to follow himself around in his historic posts to find all the times he made remarks that were actually (often subtle) ad-hominum insinuations and attacks on someone who was disagreeing with him, and consider - or at least try to remember - what his own motives were + try to figure out what his current motive is for following people around just so that he can point out what bad people they are (if they disagree with his own doctrines - not if they don't).

Whether or not Marks takes that medicine is between himself and God, of course.

Bad people. Bad, bad people!

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20

The proof that Satan has been bound... (given that you are a Gentile) ...is you. The fact that you have been born again and are thus in Christ is proof postive that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations. Is it possible that Satan could be bound in this way but still have much influence in the world? Yes. Yes it is.

Grace and peace to all.

Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

@Spiritual Israelite All those among us who believe the Word of God in Jesus Christ need to understand that Satan has never and will never receive his power to deceive the nations from God. He receives his power to deceive the nations when created human beings give him that power through...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[WPM]

How can you conclude that Satan's works are "his ability to deceive the nations" despite the Word of God having told you that it is created human beings that give Satan the power to deceive the nations - through their belief in the words of 'spiritual enlightenment" = ALL of which he is the father of - and that this is because even though THE LIGHT has come into the world, some (many) LOVE darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

Satan has NO POWER to deceive the nations unless and until human beings believe his words of 'spiritual enlightenment'. Your assertion contradicts the Word of God in Christ.

Scripture tells you that Christ's death and resurrection has destroyed sin and death - and hence has destroyed Satan's power over death and taken away the indictment he had - the broken law and commandments - to accuse the brethren before God. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POWER CREATED HUMAN BEINGS GIVE HIM TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS THROUGH THE FAITH THE NATIONS PLACE IN HIS WORDS OF 'SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT'.

Satan was bound from deceiving mankind in the Garden of Eden until the day God PERMITTED HIM to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which opposed the Word of God - and even then his power to deceive the nations needed to be given him BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH THEIR BELIEF OF HIS WORDS.

Revelation 20:1-3 does not tell you that Satan will be bound from "preventing the spread of the gospel" "through his deception of the nations". Those are words you have added to scripture.

Satan has never been able to stop the spread of the gospel: Abel believed God and in the promise of the gospel, and God accepted His sacrifice (Genesis 4:2-4). Noah believed God and in the gospel of the coming seed, and "being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7). - and Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites). Abraham believed God and in the gospel of the promised seed, and it was credited to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23) - and Abraham is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites).

Satan is not judged by God for the power that created human beings have given him to deceive the nations - because God knows - and has told us - that the reason why created human beings give Satan power to deceive the nations is because some (many) of them LOVE darkness rather than THE LIGHT, and this is because THEIR deeds are evil (John 3:19).

Satan has power to deceive the nations as long as he is GIVEN that power BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS WHO LOVE DARKNESS RATHER THAN THE LIGHT, and for as long as the darkness which originates in the father of ALL lies is PERMITTED BY GOD to be offered IN THE WORLD as alternative "truth" to THE TRUTH.

To equate or even to link Satan's power to deceive the nations with Christ's power to destroy sin and death is a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us.

There are multiple detailed posts above that refute this that you have carefully avoided. The reader can check that out for themselves.

 

[WPM]

How can you conclude that Satan's works are "his ability to deceive the nations" despite the Word of God having told you that it is created human beings that give Satan the power to deceive the nations - through their belief in the words of 'spiritual enlightenment" = ALL of which he is the father of - and that this is because even though THE LIGHT has come into the world, some (many) LOVE darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

Satan has NO POWER to deceive the nations unless and until human beings believe his words of 'spiritual enlightenment'. Your assertion contradicts the Word of God in Christ.

Scripture tells you that Christ's death and resurrection has destroyed sin and death - and hence has destroyed Satan's power over death and taken away the indictment he had - the broken law and commandments - to accuse the brethren before God. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POWER CREATED HUMAN BEINGS GIVE HIM TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS THROUGH THE FAITH THE NATIONS PLACE IN HIS WORDS OF 'SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT'.

Satan was bound from deceiving mankind in the Garden of Eden until the day God PERMITTED HIM to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which opposed the Word of God - and even then his power to deceive the nations needed to be given him BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH THEIR BELIEF OF HIS WORDS.

Revelation 20:1-3 does not tell you that Satan will be bound from "preventing the spread of the gospel" "through his deception of the nations". Those are words you have added to scripture.

Satan has never been able to stop the spread of the gospel: Abel believed God and in the promise of the gospel, and God accepted His sacrifice (Genesis 4:2-4). Noah believed God and in the gospel of the coming seed, and "being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7). - and Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites). Abraham believed God and in the gospel of the promised seed, and it was credited to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23) - and Abraham is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites).

Satan is not judged by God for the power that created human beings have given him to deceive the nations - because God knows - and has told us - that the reason why created human beings give Satan power to deceive the nations is because some (many) of them LOVE darkness rather than THE LIGHT, and this is because THEIR deeds are evil (John 3:19).

Satan has power to deceive the nations as long as he is GIVEN that power BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS WHO LOVE DARKNESS RATHER THAN THE LIGHT, and for as long as the darkness which originates in the father of ALL lies is PERMITTED BY GOD to be offered IN THE WORLD as alternative "truth" to THE TRUTH.

To equate or even to link Satan's power to deceive the nations with Christ's power to destroy sin and death is a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us.

Do you believe in corroboration? Do you believe in supporting Scripture with Scripture?

 

[Zao is life]

There are multiple detailed posts above that refute this that you have carefully avoided. The reader can check that out for themselves.

In your opinion. Yet your posts refute nothing mentioned in my post. Your assertions do not corroborate with scripture, and prove that you do not understand what it means to have opinions that corroborate with scripture.

Everything I have posted in each post is a refutation of all the false interpretations of the scriptures that you post.

Quoting scripture is not enough to have your assertion corroborate with scripture - your interpretations of the scriptures you post have to corroborate with scripture - and everything I have posted is a refutation of everything you have ever posted about this subject.

 

[WPM]

In your opinion. Yet your posts refute nothing mentioned in my post. Your assertions do not corroborate with scripture, and prove that you do not understand what it means to have opinions that corroborate with scripture.

Everything I have posted in each post is a refutation of all the false interpretations of the scriptures that you post.

Quoting scripture is not enough to have your assertion corroborate with scripture - your interpretations of the scriptures you post have to corroborate with scripture - and everything I have posted is a refutation of everything you have ever posted about this subject.

You have refuted nothing. All we have are your opinions - zero biblical support. This is all religious noise. You have zero corroboration to cover every single main tenet of Premil.

• Where else in Scripture is a thousand years mentioned after the second coming?
• Where in Scripture (including Rev 20) is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?
• Where else in Scripture is the binding of Satan?
• Where else in Scripture are the 2 future resurrections?
• Where else in Scripture are the 2 future judgments?
• Where else in Scripture is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

 

[PinSeeker]

Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

@Spiritual Israelite All those among us who believe the Word of God in Jesus Christ need to understand that Satan has never and will never receive his power to deceive the nations from God. He receives his power to deceive the nations when created human beings give him that power through...

www.christianityboard.com

An interesting post, for sure. I'm going to pick out just a few things and comment, or ask you about them, or... Well, you'll see:

1. "How can you conclude that Satan's works are "his ability to deceive the nations" despite the Word of God having told you that it is created human beings that give Satan the power to deceive the nations..."

​

How would you back this up, ZIL? Actually, what ~ if anything ~ from God's Word would you point to, use, or cite to back your statement here up? From the rest of the quote here, it looks like your reasoning is that, as you say, "some (many) LOVE darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil." But this is a consequence of the Fall, of Adam's disobedience of God, which had far-reaching effects, to put it mildly, on not only Adam and Eve but all of humanity to come. This is precisely why, naturally speaking, all the deeds of humanity are evil.​

​

No, human beings can't give Satan the power or authority or even the ability to do anything, much less "deceive the nations," which is an oft-misunderstood thing... As you know, I think, there is no authority except from God (Paul, Romans 13:1). Satan can do nothing without God's "permission," His allowing this or that; we can see that in Job 1, where God gives Satan free reign over Job, but with a limit: "Behold, all that (Job) has is in your hand. Only against (Job) do not stretch out your hand" (Job 1:12). So, it is God who gave Satan the power ~ allowed, really, for a time ~ to "deceive the nations," which again is misunderstood by so many, and in many different ways.​

2. "Scripture tells you that Christ's death and resurrection has destroyed sin and death..."

Here's another statement I would like to hear you back up with Scripture. I don't completely disagree with you, but this is what we might call a "now and not yet" thing. In other words, Christ destroyed sin and death in that it is... well, rotting from the inside, so to speak, and the ultimate destruction of sin and death is certain and sure, but is not yet complete ~ it will not be complete until Christ comes back and Satan is finally and totally defeated, which, again, is absolutely certain to happen, as God has promised, and all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ, but is not yet. Surely you agree with this, but... maybe not.​

3. "Satan was bound from deceiving mankind in the Garden of Eden until the day God PERMITTED HIM to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which opposed the Word of God..."

Hmmm... Well, the only members of "mankind" that existed in those days were... well, first Adam, and then at some point Eve, right? I would agree, though, that the only reason Satan was not only able to say what he said but even that he was in Eden at all...​

​

...and he may have actually been there before Adam was created; we don't know and can't conclude either way with regard to that, but only that he was there on the day described in Genesis 3...​

​

...was because God allowed him to be there. And, yes, considering what God did in the case of Job, yes, gave Satan permission to at least try to deceive Eve and thereby tempt Adam. But I think we can safely say that God ordained all of this. And one thing that seems relevant to say here is that God's ordaining something does not necessarily mean that he sanctions it.​

​

Just one more point here: Satan was not bound in Eden in the same sense as he is bound from deceiving the nations now. It's really opposite, in the sense that he was really freed to do something (deceive Eve) in Eden that he is absolutely restricted from (deceiving the nations) now.​

4. "Revelation 20:1-3 does not tell you that Satan will be bound from "preventing the spread of the gospel" "through his deception of the nations". Those are words you have added to scripture."

<smile> I agree that it is not telling us Satan will be bound... it's actually telling us Satan has been bound... <smile> It tells us... shows us, actually,... that Jesus came... He is the "angel coming down from heaven, holding in His hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain" Who "seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended." ZIL, Revelation 20:1-3, Zao, is actually the Christmas story, the story of Jesus's first coming, His... as Paul puts it in Philippians 2... His "taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." This is exactly what Jesus was later saying, at the beginning of His public ministry, when He said, quoting from Isaiah 66, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." This is a past event... fulfilled, as Jesus Himself said. Again, regarding Satan being bound, Jesus said ~ two millennia ago ~ "how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." This is recorded by Matthew (chapter 12), Mark (chapter 3), and Luke (chapter 11). So no, nobody is adding to Scripture. Regarding the spreading of the Gospel, no one is "adding to Scripture." We can all make inferences from Scripture, and we all do this. We have to be careful in doing that, for sure, and we are. But this started with Jesus's coming, and then at the end of His time here on earth, He commissions His disciples ~ and all of us ~ to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded" (Matthew 28:19-20) This commission is made possible by the binding of Satan. Not because God "didn't have the power to do it before that point" (that would be ridiculous), but only that God did what He did then; this was His plan from the very beginning, what we call His eternal decree... actually what He told Satan what would happen (eventually) in Genesis 3:15 ~ "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He (Jesus) shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."​

5. "Satan has never been able to stop the spread of the gospel..."

No, not really, I agree, and no one is suggesting that; you are only making that out to be... understanding that as... the meaning of what we are saying. We're only saying that it suited God's purposes to allow Satan to deceive the nations for a time... until Jesus came, until He was sent, to, in His own words, open the Gospel to all the nations, whereas up to that time it had been given only to the nation of Israel:​

​

"The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles ~ the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned..." (Jesus quoting from Isaiah in Matthew 4).​

​

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." (Jesus quoting from Isaiah in Luke 4).​

6. "Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS..."

Well, yes, in the sense that Noah was the one who God made the Covenant of Life with, after the flood, as He once had with Adam in Eden.​

7. "Abraham is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites)."

God told Abraham, ZIL, in Genesis 12:2, "I will make of you a great nation..." Nation being singular, not plural. And Jesus says in John 8, even to a group of Jews, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man Who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” So who is their father? Well, you know, I think; Jesus goes on to say, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here... You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires..." So no, Abraham is the father if God's Israel; Abraham's son was Isaac, the child of the promise, and Jacob was the son of Isaac. And Jacob (whom God loved, as opposed to Esau, whom He hated) was renamed Israel... by God Himself.​

8. "To equate or even to link Satan's power to deceive the nations with Christ's power to destroy sin and death..."

...is not what anyone here is doing, ZIL.​

Satan is bound. Now. Since Jesus's first coming. He will be loosed for a time, though... <shudder> But the end will come, and Christ will return and triumph in glory, bring to us the final victory. Praise be to God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

An interesting post, for sure. I'm going to pick out just a few things and comment, or ask you about them, or... Well, you'll see:

1. "How can you conclude that Satan's works are "his ability to deceive the nations" despite the Word of God having told you that it is created human beings that give Satan the power to deceive the nations..."

How would you back this up, ZIL?

You have backed it up yourself:

Satan can do nothing without God's "permission,"

True. The father of lies has to be permitted by God to tell lies that contradict the Word of God. So what you say is confirmation of what I said.

When Satan gives "spiritual enlightenment" that opposes the Word of God and makes God out to be a liar, he cannot do so unless God permits him. Which is exactly what I said. So we agree (though you seem to have hoped we don't agree).

Christ destroyed sin and death in that it is... well, rotting from the inside, so to speak, and the ultimate destruction of sin and death is certain and sure, but is not yet complete.
~ it will not be complete until Christ comes back and Satan is finally and totally defeated, which, again, is absolutely certain to happen, as God has promised, and all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ, but is not yet. Surely you agree with this, but... maybe not.

Christ completely destroyed sin once for all when He became sin for us, bore our sin in His own body on the cross, and died. He completely destroyed death once for all when He rose again from the dead. He is the last Adam, the Son of man.

"God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made visible by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has broken the power of death, and has brought life (zoe) and immortality to light through the gospel." (2 Timothy 1:9-10).

"has broken the power of death" is past tense and He will not need to "complete it" when He returns or before we are resurrected from the dead by the power of His resurrection. Nor will He need to "complete" defeating the sin that leads to death. What you say about this is simply not biblical.

3. "Satan was bound from deceiving mankind in the Garden of Eden until the day God PERMITTED HIM to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which opposed the Word of God..."

Well, the only members of "mankind" that existed in those days were... well, first Adam, and then at some point Eve.

Do you believe that all mankind are descended from Adam and Eve, or don't you?

And do you believe the scripture that tells us that:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned" (Romans 5:12); and:

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming.

Do you truly believe that Christ's defeat of sin and death needs to be "completed" before the resurrection of the body from the dead that has come through His resurrection can take place?

If so, then what you believe is not biblical.

,
I would agree, though, that the only reason Satan was not only able to say what he said but even that he was in Eden at all.

.. is that he was permitted by God to give a "word" which opposed the Word of God (call it "spiritual enlightenment" or something else, It does not matter - because Satan's "word" is a lie and it opposes and contradicts the Word of God and implies that God is a liar).

So I'll say this again, the source of all "words" of "spiritual enlightenment" that oppose the words of God, whether they be:

"The allah of Abraham, Ishmael, and Esau has no son"; OR
"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has no son", OR
"There are many gods and we believe in all the gods"; OR
"There is no God"; OR
]"We respect and revere the spirits of our ancestors and our spirit-mediums who contact them on our behalf to obtain their guidance and blessing, or to appease them when they are angry" ..
.. etc, etc

The source of any word and of all words that oppose the Word of God is the father of (all) lies. He is only able to speak his words of deception to created human beings while God permits him to do so - and even then, whether it be Adam and Eve or any of their descendants, if the created human being does not believe the lie, then Satan has NO power to deceive that person.

..and he may have actually been there before Adam was created; we don't know and can't conclude either way with regard to that, but only that he was there on the day described in Genesis 3..

It makes no difference to the fact that the devil has no power to deceive except that which is given him through the faith of created human beings in his lies - and God holds US - not Satan - responsible for whose word we believe (John 3:19).

And, yes, considering what God did in the case of Job, yes, gave Satan permission to at least try to deceive Eve and thereby tempt Adam. But I think we can safely say that God ordained all of this.

I'm sorry but God does not ordain sin and evil, nor did He ordain death. He permitted Satan to lie to mankind and He still permits it because mankind is created in His own image and likeness and whether or not created human beings will believe the Word of God or the word of the father of lies is the criteria by which God discovers who the individual loves in his heart.

If it were not the case then not believing the Word of God in Christ would not be the criteria by which God will judge each individual created human being either unto eternal life or eternal damnation.

And one thing that seems relevant to say here is that God's ordaining something does not necessarily mean that he sanctions it.

You have serious problems if you believe that God "ordained" lies, evil, sin and death just because He permits it so that mankind can be tested.

Just one more point here: Satan was not bound in Eden in the same sense as he is bound from deceiving the nations now.

Proof - hard evidence - that what you say about Satan being bound from deceiving the nations now, is that the nations are being deceived by "spiritual enlightenment" that originates in the father of all lies now, and God is not only still allowing it now, but God Himself has declared that whether we believe either His Word or the deceptions in the world, is the criteria by which each one will be judged - either unto eternal life, or unto damnation.

It's just as the scripture itself says that you quote, which Amil doctrine corrupts:

Revelation 20
3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, ...

Why?

.. that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

The metaphors of chains, a key, the abyss and the seal set on him are telling us that he will be prevented from even speaking his lying words by which he hopes to deceive the nations.

 

[PinSeeker]

.... he cannot do so unless God permits him. Which is exactly what I said. So we agree (though you seem to have hoped we don't agree).

Well no, it seemed from what you said before that you didn't agree.

<chuckles>... Does anyone on this board actually hope any other person doesn't or won't agree with him or her? I... don't think so... <smile>

Christ completely destroyed sin once for all when He became sin for us...

Then why do we still sin, Zao, at least from time to time? Sin has not been destroyed in full yet. But it certainly will be...

He completely destroyed death once for all when He rose again from the dead.

Okay, well then in the same vein as directly above, why is there still death? Why are there still folks dying? Death has not been destroyed in full yet. But it certainly will be.

This is the simultaneous now and not yet. And to what we're talking about, the Kingdom of God is here now ~ since Jesus walked the earth, as He Himself said ~ but is not here in its fullness yet. But it certainly will be.

He is the last Adam, the Son of man.

Sure. Absolutely.

Do you believe that all mankind are descended from Adam and Eve, or don't you?

Sure. Absolutely.

And do you believe the scripture that tells us that:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned" (Romans 5:12);

Well, since I cited it above, obviously yes... <smile>

and:

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming.

Of course. So, "at His coming." I'm thinking the answer to this is yes, but I'll ask it anyway, really rhetorically, to make a point: Yes, "at His coming..." which is still yet future, right? I'll just consider it a given that your answer to that is yes. So Paul's talking about an absolute certainty, but then and even now still an event that has not yet occurred. I mean, there it is, "will be," in verse 22, so obviously in the future, at least then. You believe that even now it's yet future, right? But even now, we can live in that certainty. Ergo... now and not yet.

Do you truly believe that Christ's defeat of sin and death needs to be "completed" before the resurrection of the body from the dead that has come through His resurrection can take place?

Yes, but I think not quite in the sense that you hear me saying what I'm saying. Completed more in the sense of consummation, rather than anything really yet to be done or left undone. "It is finished," He said with His last words on the cross, and I think we agree on what that means ~ everything needed to accomplish the redemption of all creation and to achieve the final victory has been done. But yet, redemption is not yet complete (but surely will be) and the final victory has not been won yet (but surely will be).

If so, then what you believe is not biblical.

If my context were what you seem to think it is, then no, it wouldn't be biblical. But that's the problem, it seems. See directly above.

The source of any word and of all words that oppose the Word of God is the father of (all) lies. He is only able to speak his words of deception to created human beings while God permits him to do so...

Okay, sure, I agree... but I'm not even sure how you got here...

....if the created human being does not believe the lie, then Satan has NO power to deceive that person.

Hmmm, well this is not "a hill to die on," so to speak, but I would say that Satan does have the power to deceive that person, but something ~ Somebody (with a capital 'S'... well, a capital 'H' and a capital 'S'...) actually ~ is keeping that from happening... <smile>

It makes no difference to the fact that the devil has no power to deceive except that which is given him through the faith of created human beings in his lies...

Hm. Hold on, there... <smile> What is faith, Zao? And where does it come from? Who gives it? 1st Corinthians 12:4-11 will be helpful here, particularly verse 9 there. And Hebrews 11:1 is the very definition of faith. And once we have it, we have it.

So, with that in mind, your saying "the devil has no power to deceive except that which is given him through the faith of created human beings in his lies..." If you're saying that the devil's power to deceive any one person is proportional to the degree or portion of faith that one person has been given, then I might at least somewhat agree. But still, the devil's power to deceive is what it is, and for the Christian, the Holy Spirit is at work in him or her helping him or her to overcome it. I... hope you agree, but if you don't, well, okay. <smile>

- and God holds US - not Satan - responsible for whose word we believe (John 3:19).

Sure. Absolutely. Again, I don't even know why you feel compelled to say this...

I'm sorry but God does not ordain sin and evil...

Uh oh. Well, I think you'll agree that God uses sin and evil sinlessly to accomplish His purposes. I hope so, anyway. We can talk about what it means to ordain something, but it should be sufficient to say, as I said before, that to ordain something does not mean sanctioning it; ordaining and sanctioning are two very different things. At any rate, God works all things ~ all things, Zao, which includes sin and evil ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. That surely does not mean that God is guilty of sin or evil, but He can ~ and does ~ use those things to accomplish His good purposes.

., nor did He ordain death. He permitted Satan to lie to mankind and He still permits it because mankind is created in His own image and likeness and whether or not created human beings will believe the Word of God or the word of the father of lies is the criteria by which God discovers who the individual loves in his heart.

If it were not the case then not believing the Word of God in Christ would not be the criteria by which God will judge each individual created human being either unto eternal life or eternal damnation.

You have serious problems if you believe that God "ordained" lies, evil, sin and death just because He permits it so that mankind can be tested.

Proof - hard evidence - that what you say about Satan being bound from deceiving the nations now, is...

...that members of all the nations ~ Gentiles ~ are responding to the Gospel and coming to repentance and believe in Christ Jesus. This was my initial point, and proof that we are in the midst of God's millennium, the thousand years ~ to be understood as a fullness of time, not literally one thousand 365-day periods ~ in which He is building His Israel, bringing it to completion. The number is symbolic, intensely analogous to what the Psalmist says in Psalm 50, that the cattle on a thousand hills are the Lord's, and also to what Peter says, that to God, the great I AM, Who is in what we might call the eternal now, a thousand years is as a day, and a day as a thousand years. A slight digression, there, but God is building His Israel, bringing it to completion, and that is absolutely certain to happen. <smile> Then will be the end of this current age, "these last days," in the sense of Hebrews 1:2.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

From above....

that the nations are being deceived...

They are not. See directly above. Individuals within every tongue, tribe, and nation are coming to the Lord. And this is proof of Satan's absolute inability to deceive the nations; he is bound from doing so. Now, is he able to exert some degree of influence in the world? Well yes, absolutely he is. In earthly terms, it is possible even for a prisoner in a maximum-security prison to exert some degree of influence on those on the outside in various ways. It is in this way Satan is "prowling about, seeking someone to devour," as Peter puts it in 2 Peter 5... but it's like... well, here's a mental image for you... he's standing just offshore trying to stop the waves from crashing on the beach... And he's realized the futility of that and now is running around on the beach trying to convince all the people on the beach that the ocean is not really there... <smile>

The metaphors of chains, a key, the abyss and the seal set on him are telling us that he will be prevented from even speaking his lying words by which he hopes to deceive the nations.

No, he's not able to keep the Gentiles from hearing and believing the Gospel anymore. Many will not, for sure, but this is ultimately because they are not members of God's elect...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can you conclude that Satan's works are "his ability to deceive the nations" despite the Word of God having told you that it is created human beings that give Satan the power to deceive the nations - through their belief in the words of 'spiritual enlightenment" = ALL of which he is the father of - and that this is because even though THE LIGHT has come into the world, some (many) LOVE darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

Satan has NO POWER to deceive the nations unless and until human beings believe his words of 'spiritual enlightenment'. Your assertion contradicts the Word of God in Christ.

Scripture tells you that Christ's death and resurrection has destroyed sin and death - and hence has destroyed Satan's power over death and taken away the indictment he had - the broken law and commandments - to accuse the brethren before God. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POWER CREATED HUMAN BEINGS GIVE HIM TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS THROUGH THE FAITH THE NATIONS PLACE IN HIS WORDS OF 'SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT'.

Satan was bound from deceiving mankind in the Garden of Eden until the day God PERMITTED HIM to offer words of 'spiritual enlightenment' which opposed the Word of God - and even then his power to deceive the nations needed to be given him BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH THEIR BELIEF OF HIS WORDS.

Revelation 20:1-3 does not tell you that Satan will be bound from "preventing the spread of the gospel" "through his deception of the nations". Those are words you have added to scripture.

Satan has never been able to stop the spread of the gospel: Abel believed God and in the promise of the gospel, and God accepted His sacrifice (Genesis 4:2-4). Noah believed God and in the gospel of the coming seed, and "being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7). - and Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites). Abraham believed God and in the gospel of the promised seed, and it was credited to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23) - and Abraham is the father of ALL NATIONS (not just the Israelites).

Satan is not judged by God for the power that created human beings have given him to deceive the nations - because God knows - and has told us - that the reason why created human beings give Satan power to deceive the nations is because some (many) of them LOVE darkness rather than THE LIGHT, and this is because THEIR deeds are evil (John 3:19).

Satan has power to deceive the nations as long as he is GIVEN that power BY CREATED HUMAN BEINGS WHO LOVE DARKNESS RATHER THAN THE LIGHT, and for as long as the darkness which originates in the father of ALL lies is PERMITTED BY GOD to be offered IN THE WORLD as alternative "truth" to THE TRUTH.

To equate or even to link Satan's power to deceive the nations with Christ's power to destroy sin and death is a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us.

In no way, shape or form is my view "a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us.". That statement is foolish. It's quite the opposite.

You do not understand why he was bound. It has nothing to do with completely incapacitating Satan, it has to do with Jesus destroying his works (1 John 3:8) and taking the power of death away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15) in order to make the way for the gospel of Christ to shine light to the world that was formerly almost completely in spiritual darkness because they had "no hope, and were without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12).

I believe all of these passages relate to Satan's binding and all of them talk about the impact that Jesus and the preaching of His gospel has had on the world for the past almost 2,000 years.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All of the above passages relate to the binding of Satan which has to do with Jesus coming to "destroy the works of the devil" by way of taking "the power of death" away from him which he formerly used to keep the world (especially the Gentiles) in spiritual darkness and in slavery to the fear of death (due to previously having no hope of eternal life). Before He came very few Gentiles in the world had been saved, but after that a multitude has been saved. That was made possible by way of Jesus binding Satan and restraining the power he once held over the world to make it possible for people to be delivered "from the power of Satan unto God".

The binding of Satan has nothing to do with making Satan completely powerless, as premils imagine. It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world awhile keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.

Anyone who reads the above and concludes that my view is "a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us" is not even paying attention to what I believe. Anyone who is objective can see that statement is not true whatsoever.

 

[Zao is life]

In no way, shape or form is my view "a denigration of what the sacrifice and blood of Christ has accomplished for us.". That statement is foolish. It's quite the opposite.

You do not understand why he was bound.

You do not understand that he wasn't bound and has never been bound.

One day when you stop opening your sentences with a false statement that's not based on biblical scripture, you will be able to look for indications in scripture as to what scripture - not you and Amil theology but scripture - means when it talks about John seeing Satan being bound.

It has nothing to do with completely incapacitating Satan,

Not according to you or according to Amil false theology, but according to scripture and to what is implied in Revelation 20:1-3 it has everything to do with completely incapacitating Satan with regard to his ability to deceive the nations - and the only way Satan has ever been able to deceive the nations is with his own 'words of spiritual enlightenment' - as well as with false doctrines such as Amillennialism, of course.

it has to do with Jesus destroying his works (1 John 3:8) and taking the power of death away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15) in order to make the way for the gospel of Christ to shine light to the world that was formerly almost completely in spiritual darkness because they had "no hope, and were without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Again, that is a denigration of the purpose for which biblical scripture says Christ died and rose again from the dead. The Bible directly gives you the reason - the only reason - why Christ died and rose again - which was to destroy Satan's works and take his power over death away from him, and in the process also stop him from being able to accuse the brethren before God.

According to scripture, the above was accomplished by Jesus once and for all, and forever and ever.

According to your doctrine it was only accomplished for a thousand years. When the thousand years is finished Satan will be released again to - what your doctrine IN EFFECT teaches, undo Christ's works mentioned above "for a short season" - so that once having undone Christ's destruction of his power over death, he can go about deceiving the nations again for a short time BY preventing the spread of the gospel.

It's a load of nonsense and a denigration of the enormous change Christ's death and resurrection brought about - which has NOTHING to do with Satan being 'bound in the sense of being restricted from stopping the spread of the gospel' - another false doctrine which IN EFFECT claims that Satan is so powerful that He would be able to put an end to the power of the Holy Spirit in the church, which came upon the church on the day of Pentecost and has remained with the church ever since.

Which is itself yet another denigration of God.

Satan was NEVER able to stop the Word of God from going forth. Not in the days of Seth, not in the days of Noah, not in the days of Abraham - all of whom believed the Word of God which they heard without Satan needing to be bound, and not in the days of any of the prophets and kings of Israel.

Your false theology gives Satan a lot of power and leverage over God, choosing NOT to believe that Satan has NO power over God WHATSOEVER and did NOT need to be BOUND.

The gospel that was carried to the nations by the apostles and then by those who followed them did not need Satan to be bound so that the power of the Holy Spirit of God "was not restricted." In my HONEST opinion your theology based on that lie borders on blasphemy. Satan has NEVER had the power to stop the work of God brought about through the Word of God by the power of the Spirit of God.

The arguments you put forward are the same you always put forward, based in Amil doctrine, the motivation for them unscriptural but masquerading as scriptural.

And what you spoke about below is just another area where unscriptural nonsense masquerades as "scriptural" in futile attempts to find support for the false doctrine of Amillennialism and the theology built upon it:

IN ITS CONTEXT "the house" in Jesus' parable when he spoke about binding the strong man represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"): Satan was not being bound for a thousand years and shut up in the abyss so that he was unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years every time Jesus or one of His apostles cast demons out of individuals. Nor was there ever any reversal "for a little season" once an individual been delivered. Besides this, the casting out of demons were taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection:

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

You say IN EFFECT that the devil was bound BY Christ's detroying of his works (his power over death and ability to accuse the brethren),

and that because Satan was "bound", the Word of God (testified by the Holy Spirit of God), was rendered less 'impotent' in bringing the gospel into the world and to the world -

BECAUSE IN EFFECT you say that if Satan was NOT bound, then Satan would have been able to make God more 'impotent' or "less powerful" (or something).

Amillennilism's so-called "scriptural support" for it's false doctrine are a disgrace, in my HONEST opinion.

All of the above passages relate to the binding of Satan which has to do with Jesus coming to "destroy the works of the devil" by way of taking "the power of death" away from him

No, they do not relate to the binding of Satan. NONE OF what you say is true and scriptural. And ALL OF IT is a denigration of God and the power of God by the Word of God through the Spirit of God bringing the gospel to the nations.

Let's just agree to disagree because unfortunately the more you speak the more you expose to me just how blasphemous Amil doctrine is So because I don't like it when I hear people blaspheming, I'm going to ask you to stop.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do not understand that he wasn't bound and has never been bound.

One day when you stop opening your sentences with a false statement that's not based on biblical scripture, you will be able to look for indications in scripture as to what scripture - not you and Amil theology but scripture - means when it talks about John seeing Satan being bound.

Not according to you or according to Amil false theology, but according to scripture and to what is implied in Revelation 20:1-3 it has everything to do with completely incapacitating Satan with regard to his ability to deceive the nations - and the only way Satan has ever been able to deceive the nations is with his own 'words of spiritual enlightenment' - as well as with false doctrines such as Amillennialism, of course.

Again, that is a denigration of the purpose for which biblical scripture says Christ died and rose again from the dead. The Bible directly gives you the reason - the only reason - why Christ died and rose again - which was to destroy Satan's works and take his power over death away from him, and in the process also stop him from being able to accuse the brethren before God.

According to scripture, the above was accomplished by Jesus once and for all, and forever and ever.

According to your doctrine it was only accomplished for a thousand years. When the thousand years is finished Satan will be released again to - what your doctrine IN EFFECT teaches, undo Christ's works mentioned above "for a short season" - so that once having undone Christ's destruction of his power over death, he can go about deceiving the nations again for a short time BY preventing the spread of the gospels.

It's a load of nonsense and a denigration of the enormous change Christ's death and resurrection brought about - which has NOTHING to do with Satan being 'bound in the sense of being restricted from stopping the spread of the gospel' - another false doctrine which IN EFFECT claims that Satan is so powerful that He would be able to put an end to the power of the Holy Spirit in the church, which came upon the church on the day of Pentecost and has remained with the church ever since.

Which is itself yet another denigration of God.

Satan was NEVER able to stop the Word of God from going forth. Not in the days of Seth, not in the days of Noah, not in the days of Abraham - all of whom believed the Word of God which they heard without Satan needing to be bound, and not in the days of any of the prophets and kings of Israel.

Your false theology gives Satan a lot of power and leverage over God, choosing NOT to believe that Satan has NO power over God WHATSOEVER and did NOT need to be BOUND.

The gospel that was carried to the nations by the apostles and then by those who followed them did not need Satan to be bound so that the power of the Holy Spirit of God "was not restricted." In my HONEST opinion your theology based on that lie borders on blasphemy. Satan has NEVER had the power to stop the work of God brought about through the Word of God by the power of the Spirit of God.

The arguments you out forward are the same you always put forward, based in Amil doctrine, the motivation for them unscriptural but masquerading as scriptural. And what you spoke about below is just another area where unscriptural nonsense masquerades as "scriptural" in futile attempts to find support for the false doctrine of Amillennialism and the theology built upon it:

IN ITS CONTEXT "the house" in Jesus' parable when he spoke about binding the strong man represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"): Satan was not being bound for a thousand years and shut up in the abyss so that he was unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years every time Jesus or one of His apostles cast demons out of individuals. Nor was there ever any reversal "for a little season" once an individual been delivered. Besides this, the casting out of demons were taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection:



You say IN EFFECT that the devil was bound BY Christ's detroying of his works (his power over death and ability to accuse the brethren),

and that because Satan was "bound", the Word of God (testified by the Holy Spirit of God), was rendered less 'impotent' in bringing the gospel into the world and to the world -

BECAUSE IN EFFECT you say that if Satan was NOT bound, then Satan would have been able to make God more 'impotent' or "less powerful" (or something).

Amillennilism's so-called "scriptural support" for it's false doctrine are a disgrace, in my HONEST opinion.

No, they do not relate to the binding of Satan. NONE OF what you say is true and scriptural. And ALL OF IT is a denigration of God and the power of God by the Word of God through the Spirit of God bringing the gospel to the nations.

Let's just agree to disagree because unfortunately the more you speak the more you expose to me just how blasphemous Amil doctrine is So because I don't like it when I hear people blaspheming, I'm going to ask you to stop.

This is utter foolishness. I will not stop supporting Amillennialism which is NOT blasphemous at all. That is a LIE! Amillennialism is the doctrine that puts Jesus on the pedestal above all things right NOW where He belongs. Premillennialism (as most understand it) is the view that denigrates Him and what He has done. But, you have your own brand of Premill that maybe doesn't do what most Premills do in relation to minimizing what Christ's death and resurrection accomplished, but your brand of Premill makes no sense whatsoever by giving people a second chance at salvation after death which contradicts much scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

This is utter foolishness. I will not stop supporting Amillennialism which is NOT blasphemous at all. That is a LIE! Amillennialism is the doctrine that puts Jesus on the pedestal above all things right NOW where He belongs. Premillennialism (as most understand it) is the view that denigrates Him and what He has done. But, you have your own brand of Premill that maybe doesn't do what most Premills do in relation to minimizing what Christ's death and resurrection accomplished, but your brand of Premill makes no sense whatsoever by giving people a second chance at salvation after death which contradicts much scripture.

In my HONEST opinion the assertions Amillennialists make in support of Amilelnnialist doctrine are not only unscriptural masquerading as scriptural, they are blasphemous enough to IN EFFECT assert that God would somehow have been rendered partially impotent to continue growing the Kingdom of God in the world because the message of the gospel would have been rendered partially impotent, had Satan not been 'bound'.

It is also a denigration of the power and totality of Christ's defeat of Satan's power over death (his works that were brought about through his tricking mankind to sin).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my HONEST opinion the assertions Amillennialists make in support of Amilelnnialist doctrine are not only unscriptural masquerading as scriptural, they are blasphemous enough to IN EFFECT assert that God would somehow have been rendered partially impotent to continue growing the Kingdom of God in the world because the message of the gospel would have been rendered partially impotent, had Satan not been 'bound'.

It is also a denigration of the power and totality of Christ's defeat of Satan's power over death (his works that were brought about through his tricking mankind to sin).

Well, your HONEST opinion is 100% wrong and makes no sense. There is NOTHING blasphemous about the Amill doctrine. That is ridiculous nonsense. You're the only Premill in the world who would accuse Amill of not giving Christ enough credit for what He has done and for who He is now. We say that He rules over all of heaven and earth right now and since His resurrection, including Satan, but we supposedly denigrate the power and totality of Christ's defeat of Satan? That is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[marks]

What @marks is doing lately is following

Think a moment. You tagged me, to make sure I'd see your criticism and judgmentalism. Seriously. Think about it.

Much love!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Too much personal nonsense. It's like more and more people on this forum feel the need to dump on others. It's just not edifying! I love discussing Scriptures with anyone who can keep a civil tongue in their mouth.

I wonder sometimes, though, how many members are presumptuous and rude in order to not have to respond to those who disagree with them.

Much love!

The "back and forth", and challenges are nice.
Debating concept vs concept.
The going personal, of some, is getting too tedious.
Like running into a spider web is a requirement to engage then.
I prefer Intelligent back and forth.

 

[WPM]

The "back and forth", and challenges are nice.
Debating concept vs concept.
The going personal, of some, is getting too tedious.
Like running into a spider web is a requirement to engage then.
I prefer Intelligent back and forth.

Yea, right? More projection. Just like you communicate with those who disagree with you:

rebuilder 454

You rode that beast/doctrine that carried you into the desert and I slew it ... Be free and agree with Jesus and His Holy Book.

rebuilder 454 said:

You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

rebuilder 454 said:

Let's calm down and try to remedy your facesmear with all that gooey egg.
We can start with retrieving your needed omissions.

rebuilder 454 said:

You are one miserable individual. Take a break, get some spirit in you and then debate without all the hateful mess.

rebuilder 454 said:

You 100% have an appointment with martyrdom.
It is your prophesy over yourself.

rebuilder 454 said:

You stumble all over yourself because you do not know the bible.

rebuilder 454 said:

(Not that anything from the Bible matters to you. )

This sums up the crude disrespectful and demeaning ad hominem that exemplifies the approach of most Pretribbers here when they notice they have no response to God's Book.