HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[Zao is life]

HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe the NHNE follows immediately after the return of Christ.

1. It is done! and the promises to the one who overcomes.

Each time Jesus spoke directly to His seven churches at the beginning of His Revelation to the churches, He closed with a promise TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME.

After the seventh and last time He closes with the above promise, He is not recorded as talking directly to His churches again until He interjects John's vision of the 6th bowl of wrath to say:

Revelation 16:15:
"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Then He says, "It is Done!" when the seventh and final vial of God's wrath is poured out (Revelation 16:15-17); and repeats the same words when He makes all things new (Revelation 21:5), saying,

"It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. HE WHO OVERCOMES will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son." (Revelation 21:6-7).

The above is also the first time Jesus makes a promise to the one who overcomes since He closed His message to the seventh of the seven churches with a promise to the one who overcomes.

Then He says,

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

2. The promise that the throne of God will be among them.

In Revelation 7:13-17 we read about a great multitude, which no man could number, that came out from great tribulation, which they experienced before the return of Christ, and below is what else John saw regarding them:

The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 7:13-17).

The same promise is made to the bride of Christ, New Jerusalem, in a New Heavens and Earth which John saw "descending out of heaven from God.":

The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 21:2-4).

3. New Jerusalem is "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" both in Revelation 21:2 AND when the bride of Christ "has made herself ready" in Revelation 19:7-8 (when Christ is returning in the day He judges the beast and false prophet), and "to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

4. "No more death".

The resurrection of the body; and immortality; and "no more death" go together like a hand in a glove:

"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:54)

Paul was writing to the Corinthians about the resurrection of the body from the dead in the above passage.

Revelation 21:4 says, "God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

All the above facts rule out any Premillennialist theory that has the NHNE commencing a thousand years AFTER the return of Christ, IMO.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe the NHNE follows immediately after the return of Christ.

1. It is done! and the promises to the one who overcomes.

Each time Jesus spoke directly to His seven churches at the beginning of His Revelation to the churches, He closed with a promise TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME.

After the seventh and last time He closes with the above promise, He is not recorded as talking directly to His churches again until He interjects John's vision of the 6th bowl of wrath to say:

Revelation 16:15:
"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Then He says, "It is Done!" when the seventh and final vial of God's wrath is poured out (Revelation 16:15-17); and repeats the same words when He makes all things new (Revelation 21:5), saying,

"It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. HE WHO OVERCOMES will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son." (Revelation 21:6-7).

The above is also the first time Jesus makes a promise to the one who overcomes since He closed His message to the seventh of the seven churches with a promise to the one who overcomes.

Then He says,

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

2. The promise that the throne of God will be among them.

In Revelation 7:13-17 we read about a great multitude, which no man could number, that came out from great tribulation, which they experienced before the return of Christ, and below is what else John saw regarding them:

The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 7:13-17).

The same promise is made to the bride of Christ, New Jerusalem, in a New Heavens and Earth which John saw "descending out of heaven from God.":

The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 21:2-4).

3. New Jerusalem is "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" both in Revelation 21:2 AND when the bride of Christ "has made herself ready" in Revelation 19:7-8 (when Christ is returning in the day He judges the beast and false prophet), and "to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

4. "No more death".

The resurrection of the body; and immortality; and "no more death" go together like a hand in a glove:

"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:54)

Paul was writing to the Corinthians about the resurrection of the body from the dead in the above passage.

Revelation 21:4 says, "God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

All the above facts rule out any Premillennialist theory that has the NHNE commencing a thousand years AFTER the return of Christ, IMO.

I agree. Good job of using scripture to interpret scripture.

Another way that I show that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in at the return of Christ is like this.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In 2 Peter 3:13, Peter indicates that, despite what he wrote in verses 10 to 12, we, according to the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming, "look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.". To me, that means Peter was saying we should expect the new heavens and new earth to be ushered in as evidence that He has kept His promise to come again. If it was not ushered in until 1,000+ years after His return, then that would mean Peter was saying, in effect: "we, according to the promise of His second coming, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness, some time long after He comes". But, that's not the impression I get of what Peter is saying in that verse at all.

 

[Zao is life]

I agree. Good job of using scripture to interpret scripture.

Another way that I show that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in at the return of Christ is like this.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In 2 Peter 3:13, Peter indicates that, despite what he wrote in verses 10 to 12, we, according to the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming, "look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.". To me, that means Peter was saying we should expect the new heavens and new earth to be ushered in as evidence that He has kept His promise to come again. If it was not ushered in until 1,000+ years after His return, then that would mean Peter was saying, in effect: "we, according to the promise of His second coming, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness, some time long after He comes". But, that's not the impression I get of what Peter is saying in that verse at all.

I think you are aware that I believe that it will be a regenerated heavens and earth (Christ making all created things new) and therefore have a difference of opinion regarding the belief of some (not including yourself) that it will be an entirely new creation,

but I understand the reasoning behind your argument that the way 2 Peter 3:10-13 is written seems to imply (by the context) that the NHNE will come when Christ returns.

But I also understand the reasoning behind the argument that Peter was not saying "when" the NHNE would come, only that there was a NHNE in which righteousness dwells, to look forward to.

IMO Premillennialists also legitimately consider Peter saying that with God "one day is as a thousand years" to be a veiled reference to a thousand years in-between the return of Christ and the NHNE (even though I no longer agree with them that it's what Peter was saying).

So IMO your argument is legitimate, but so is theirs - and without the other things I have discovered (which are mentioned in my OP in this thread), Revelation 20 still has me rejecting the belief that the thousand years is pre-return of Christ, because I do not believe that Satan is bound, nor do I believe that Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about a thousand years that will commence before the beast ascends from the bottomless pit.

So I'm one of the very few - one other that I know of in these boards - who believes that the NHNE and the thousand years commence at the same time.

I believe that the last three chapters of the Bible are the conclusion of the events that began in the first three chapters of the Bible - and I note that Satan was allowed by God to deceive mankind at the close of the first sabbath (because the first sabbath ended when Adam sinned and was expelled from Eden, becoming unable to eat of the tree of life and live forever, and death came into his body).

That was the first death. Christ is the resurrection from that death, and he is the life given to all created human beings. The last Adam.

The second death is the destruction of death in the lake of fire. There are those resurrected unto damnation who will experience the second death (key words in that note being "resurrected unto damnation").

We are not told much about it, but Jesus called it Gehenna, saying that we should fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (Genhenna being the word Jesus used every time He spoke of eternal destruction / damnation).

Besides the fact that the second death is eternal, and besides the metaphors used to describe it, we are not told much about it

- but we know enough IMO to know that it's defintely unlike the first death which Adam died - because that first death resulted in the soul going either to hades or to Abraham's bosom, and the body to the grave until the resurrection (and since the time of Christ's resurrection, the soul goes either to be with Christ, or to hades, and the body to the grave until the resurrection).

So shortening this "not-so-shortened-post" to say that in short [you may roll your eyes now], I still believe that Revelation chapter 20 is a conclusion of the third chapter of the Bible, and the last three chapters are the final conlcusion of the first three chapters - and that in order for the final conclusion to come to pass, there cannot be any mortals on the earth when Satan is released one last time to deceive mankind with the words "You will NOT surely die".

Adam evidently did not possess either eternal life or immortality in himself, though he was able to eat of the tree of life and live forever before he sinned - and he sinned as a result of believing the lie.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think you are aware that I believe that it will be a regenerated heavens and earth (Christ making all created things new) and therefore have a difference of opinion regarding the belief of some (not including yourself) that it will be an entirely new creation,

but I understand the reasoning behind your argument that the way 2 Peter 3:10-13 is written seems to imply (by the context) that the NHNE will come when Christ returns.

But I also understand the reasoning behind the argument that Peter was not saying "when" the NHNE would come, only that there was a NHNE in which righteousness dwells, to look forward to.

IMO Premillennialists also legitimately consider Peter saying that with God "one day is as a thousand years" to be a veiled reference to a thousand years in-between the return of Christ and the NHNE (even though I no longer agree with them that it's what Peter was saying).

So IMO your argument is legitimate, but so is theirs - and without the other things I have discovered (which are mentioned in my OP in this thread),

I don't believe their argument is legitimate because the context of 2 Peter 3:8 has nothing to do with the length of time between the return of Christ and the NHNE. It has to do with what Peter talks about in the very next verse after that one which is in relation to how long it is taking the Lord to return. To some, from the human perspective, it might seem like a long time, but from the Lord's eternal perspective, where a day and a thousand years are no different to Him, it's not talking a long time and He's not being slow to return as some would claim.

Revelation 20 still has me rejecting the belief that the thousand years is pre-return of Christ, because I do not believe that Satan is bound, nor do I believe that Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about a thousand years that will commence before the beast ascends from the bottomless pit.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

So I'm one of the very few - one other that I know of in these boards - who believes that the NHNE and the thousand years commence at the same time.

Yes, but he somehow has mortals surviving what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but I've never seen a convincing explanation from him of how that can be possible. Especially when you consider that Paul wrote about the same event and said "they shall not escape" without indicating that there would be any exceptions (in relation to unbelievers).

I believe that the last three chapters of the Bible are the conclusion of the events that began in the first three chapters of the Bible - and I note that Satan was allowed by God to deceive mankind at the close of the first sabbath (because the first sabbath ended when Adam sinned and was expelled from Eden, becoming unable to eat of the tree of life and live forever, and death came into his body).

That was the first death. Christ is the resurrection from that death, and he is the life given to all created human beings. The last Adam.

The second death is the destruction of death in the lake of fire. There are those resurrected unto damnation who will experience the second death (key words in that note being "resurrected unto damnation").

We are not told much about it, but Jesus called it Gehenna, saying that we should fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (Genhenna being the word Jesus used every time He spoke of eternal destruction / damnation).

Besides the fact that the second death is eternal, and besides the metaphors used to describe it, we are not told much about it

- but we know enough IMO to know that it's defintely unlike the first death which Adam died - because that first death resulted in the soul going either to hades or to Abraham's bosom, and the body to the grave until the resurrection (and since the time of Christ's resurrection, the soul goes either to be with Christ, or to hades, and the body to the grave until the resurrection).

So shortening this "not-so-shortened-post" to say that in short [you may roll your eyes now], I still believe that Revelation chapter 20 is a conclusion of the third chapter of the Bible, and the last three chapters are the final conlcusion of the first three chapters - and that in order for the final conclusion to come to pass, there cannot be any mortals on the earth when Satan is released one last time to deceive mankind with the words "You will NOT surely die".

I'm forgetting what you have said before about who you think those people are that will be resurrected with immortal bodies but will be on the earth during the thousand years. So, who do you say they are again?

 

[Zao is life]

I don't believe their argument is legitimate because the context of 2 Peter 3:8 has nothing to do with the length of time between the return of Christ and the NHNE. It has to do with what Peter talks about in the very next verse after that one which is in relation to how long it is taking the Lord to return. To some, from the human perspective, it might seem like a long time, but from the Lord's eternal perspective, where a day and a thousand years are no different to Him, it's not talking a long time and He's not being slow to return as some would claim.


Yes, I'm aware of that.


I'm forgetting what you have said before about who you think those people are that will be resurrected with immortal bodies but will be on the earth during the thousand years. So, who do you say they are again?

Those who were faithful unto death and (if they were not killed) nevertheless remained faithful in the face of enormous persecution

i.e those who have overcome, are promised that the second death will have no authority over them, and Jesus promises them that He will not blot out their names out of the book of life.

But there are billions of people who have died in the last 1,900 years while believing in Christ, who had never been faced with a situation where they had to choose between apostasy and death, who will be resurrected when Christ returns - the twelve tribes of Israel whom the apostles (and those who had overcome) will rule over for a thousand years, under Christ.

I do not believe that it's by coincidence EITHER that the last three chapters of the Bible are the ultimate conclusion of the first three chapters, OR that Satan is permitted to deceive humanity again at the close of the first thousand years of the second sabbath (the ages of the ages). Note: I believe that there will be no end to the second and ultimate sabbath of God (the ages of the ages) because the final rebellion will be stopped - not by Adam's expulsion from Eden - but by the second death - which is also the destruction of death and of hades,

and I believe this will happen immediately after the destruction of the devil who twice deceived humanity.

Revelation 20 tells us that Satan will be permitted to deceive mankind one last time. Many will follow him.

I also do not believe that immortality (the body not decaying) will be any different to the conditional immortality that Adam had before he sinned and death came into his body - because the immortality of created human beings was, and will always be dependent upon the eternal life (Spirit of Christ) in us.

Besides this, God the Creator is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. I.O W, I do not believe that the immortality of a created human being translates into "OSAS after the resurrection" - unless you have been specifically promised that the second death will have no authority over you, and that Christ will not blot out your name out of the book of Life.

I believe that each and every human being from Adam to now and until the return of Christ must and will have the opportunity - whether still as a mortal (now, before the resurrection) OR as an immortal who had never faced the ultimate test before dying in Christ and being resurrected when He returns

- of proving whether or not he will remain faithful and will endure when his faithfulness and commitment is put to the ultimate test. I believe that this is why the last three chapters of the Bible are a conclusion of what began in the first three chapters.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those who were faithful unto death and (if they were not killed) nevertheless remained faithful in the face of enormous persecution

i.e those who have overcome, are promised that the second death will have no authority over them, and Jesus promises them that He will not blot out their names out of the book of life.

According to John, all who are born of God, which are those who believe in Jesus as the Son of God, are considered to be overcomers.

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

But there are billions of people who have died in the last 1,900 years while believing in Christ, who had never been faced with a situation where they had to choose between apostasy and death, who will be resurrected when Christ returns - the twelve tribes of Israel whom the apostles (and those who had overcome) will rule over for a thousand years, under Christ.

I do not believe that it's by coincidence EITHER that the last three chapters of the Bible are the ultimate conclusion of the first three chapters, OR that Satan is permitted to deceive humanity again at the close of the first thousand years of the second sabbath (the ages of the ages). Note: I believe that there will be no end to the second and ultimate sabbath of God (the ages of the ages) because the final rebellion will be stopped - not by Adam's expulsion from Eden - but by the second death - which is also the destruction of death and of hades,

and I believe this will happen immediately after the destruction of the devil who twice deceived humanity.

Revelation 20 tells us that Satan will be permitted to deceive mankind one last time. Many will follow him.

I also do not believe that immortality (the body not decaying) will be any different to the conditional immortality that Adam had before he sinned and death came into his body - because the immortality of created human beings was, and will always be dependent upon the eternal life (Spirit of Christ) in us.

Besides this, God the Creator is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. I.O W, I do not believe that the immortality of a created human being translates into "OSAS after the resurrection" - unless you have been specifically promised that the second death will have no authority over you, and that Christ will not blot out your name out of the book of Life.

I believe that each and every human being from Adam to now and until the return of Christ must and will have the opportunity - whether still as a mortal (now, before the resurrection) OR as an immortal who had never faced the ultimate test before dying in Christ and being resurrected when He returns

- of proving whether or not he will remain faithful and will endure when his faithfulness and commitment is put to the ultimate test. I believe that this is why the last three chapters of the Bible are a conclusion of what began in the first three chapters.

Where do you see it taught that every person must be "put to the ultimate test"?

 

[Zao is life]

According to John, all who are born of God, which are those who believe in Jesus as the Son of God, are considered to be overcomers.

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


Where do you see it taught that every person must be "put to the ultimate test"?

Why would those of us have had a "relatively" easy life in that we were never faced with danger because of our testimony or with being imprisoned or had our property stolen etc etc, be regarded as just as faithful as those who were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would those of us have had a "relatively" easy life in that we were never faced with danger because of our testimony or with being imprisoned or had our property stolen etc etc, be regarded as just as faithful as those who were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus?

If you've had a "relatively" easy life, then you might be missing something or doing something wrong because....

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Do you not agree that all who believe in Jesus and are born of God are overcomers?

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Zao is life]

If you've had a "relatively" easy life, then you might be missing something or doing something wrong because....

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Do you not agree that all who believe in Jesus and are born of God are overcomers?

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Verbal persecution and mocking is something every saint suffers, including me. Plus things like not being able to get a particular job because you're a Christian.

I'm not even talking about getting charged with a hate crime because you refuse to sell a wedding cake to two men for a mock fake wedding.

I'm talking about your life and even worse the life of your own wife and daughters being in danger if you do not renounce the gospel and become Muslim, which is the kind of thing that happens in Africa, the Middle East and I don't know where else. I'm talking about more midly being forced to pay a high Jizya tax every month because you refuse to renounce your faith in Christ.

I'm talking about real persecution.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Verbal persecution and mocking is something every saint suffers, including me. Plus things like not being able to get a particular job because you're a Christian.

I'm not even talking about getting charged with a hate crime because you refuse to sell a wedding cake to two men for a mock fake wedding.

I'm talking about your life and even worse the life of your own wife and daughters being in danger if you do not renounce the gospel and become Muslim, which is the kind of thing that happens in Africa, the Middle East and I don't know where else. I'm talking about more midly being forced to pay a high Jizya tax every month because you refuse to renounce your faith in Christ.

I'm talking about real persecution.

Can you please answer my question?

Do you not agree that all who believe in Jesus and are born of God are overcomers?

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[MatthewG]

Who sits on the throne of your own heart?

 

[Zao is life]

Can you please answer my question?

Do you not agree that all who believe in Jesus and are born of God are overcomers?

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. How is any individual's faith in Christ tested if it has never been put to the test - REALLY been put to the test?

You're bordering on claiming OSAS now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. How is any individual's faith in Christ tested if it has never been put to the test - REALLY been put to the test?

I will ask for the fourth time...

Do you not agree that all who believe in Jesus and are born of God are overcomers? Yes or no?

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

God is certainly aware of what kind of faith each person has, so you don't need to worry about that. I do not see any scripture anywhere which teaches that people need to be tested the way you you're talking about before they can be judged.

I don't see anywhere where Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise, but to not get too comfortable because he would later need to have his faith tested to see if he would remain with Jesus forever or not.

You're bordering on claiming OSAS now.

Don't go there. I am doing no such thing. Of course, those who believe have to continue to believe until death, but my point is that faith in Christ until death is what is required to be an overcomer and not being put to the ultimate test and such that you are trying to claim. It does not say that anywhere that only those who are put to the ultimate test, whatever that even means, are considered to be overcomers.

 

[Zao is life]

Don't go there. I am doing no such thing. Of course, those who believe have to continue to believe until death,

Amazing you should say that, because that's what Jesus says, many times:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

What is it that overcomes the world? Our faith in Christ, i.e whether or not an individual truly believes in Christ, will be put to the test when his faith is put to the ultimate test.

So to answer your question:

Matthew 26
33 Peter said to him, "If they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away!"
34 Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, on this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times."
35 Peter said to him, "Even if I must die with you, I will never deny you." And all the disciples said the same thing.

Was Peter NOT saved?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amazing you should say that, because that's what Jesus says, many times:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

What is it that overcomes the world? Our faith in Christ, i.e whether or not an individual truly believes in Christ, will be put to the test when his faith is put to the ultimate test.

Where does scripture teach that "whether or not an individual truly believes in Christ, will be put to the test when his faith is put to the ultimate test"? Where does it teach that everyone must be "put to the ultimate test" in order to receive "a crown of life"? Is God unable to discern what type of faith a person has unless they have been "put to the ultimate test" as you define that? Where does scripture define this "ultimate test" that you think every person must go through and how is it defined exactly?

 

[Zao is life]

Where does scripture teach that "whether or not an individual truly believes in Christ, will be put to the test when his faith is put to the ultimate test"? Where does it teach that everyone must be "put to the ultimate test" in order to receive "a crown of life"? Is God unable to discern what type of faith a person has unless they have been "put to the ultimate test" as you define that?

In terms of what Jesus said about the division occurring between one group and another in Matthew 24:9-14, and in terms of what He said about remaining faithful unto death and being given the crown of life etc, do you believe that of all who come to Christ, God will permit some to be tested with a very strong testing (whether death or something else), and others not ever?

Do you believe that there may be some who believe in Christ but their faith is shallow and when they are tested they will fall away? Would God never allow them to be tested or would He just separate them from the sheep without testing them?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In terms of what Jesus said about the division occurring between one group and another in Matthew 24:9-14, and in terms of what He said about remaining faithful unto death and being given the crown of life etc, do you believe that of all who come to Christ, God will permit some to be tested with a very strong testing (whether death or something else), and others not ever?

Yes, of course, because I don't see any scripture teaching otherwise. He will judge all people based on what they knew and what they went through. And, being God, He is not unaware of what kind of faith all people have (or not).

Do you believe that there may be some who believe in Christ but their faith is shallow and when they are tested they will fall away?

Yes, of course. I believe God is in control of how much time each person has in life, so if He wants someone to be tested, He will do that. But, He is fully aware of what kind of faith people have at any given time without having to put them to the ultimate test to see what kind of faith they have. We're talking about God here.

Would God never allow them to be tested or would He just separate them from the sheep without testing them?

I think most people are tested, but sometimes people die before that happens. Was the faith of the thief on the cross tested? Not really. But, does God not know if his faith was genuine or not? Of course He does. That's why Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise that day. And he didn't tell him to not get too comfortable because his faith would be tested after he was resurrected. I just don't see such a thing taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, of course, because I don't see any scripture teaching otherwise. He will judge all people based on what they knew and what they went through. And, being God, He is not unaware of what kind of faith all people have (or not).


Yes, of course. I believe God is in control of how much time each person has in life, so if He wants someone to be tested, He will do that. But, He is fully aware of what kind of faith people have at any given time without having to put them to the ultimate test to see what kind of faith they have. We're talking about God here.


I think most people are tested, but sometimes people die before that happens. Was the faith of the thief on the cross tested? Not really. But, does God not know if his faith was genuine or not? Of course He does. That's why Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise that day. And he didn't tell him to not get too comfortable because his faith would be tested after he was resurrected. I just don't see such a thing taught anywhere in scripture.

The questions below are an exercise to explain to you what I'm saying, so I'm not demanding that you answer these questions (but obviously also not telling you that you cannot comment on them, either):

How does this:

"And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended." (Mark 4:16-17).

square up with this:

John 5
4 For everything that has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1(a) Did those Jesus mentioned in Mark 4:16-17 believe the Word when they received it with gladness?
(b) How long did they endure?
(c) Why did they fall away?
(d) Is Jesus teaching us that their faith was shallow, and this is why they fell away when their faith was tested?
(e) In Jesus' parable, would they have "remained in the Vine" if affliction and persecution did NOT arise for the Word's sake?

2. What does Jesus' parable tell us about the reason why the group which Jesus says will fall away (and actually wind up betraying their former brothers) fell away at the end of the age when the believers are delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake (Matthew 24:9-14)?

Bearing in mind that in all generations across the last 1.900+ years, the faith of some has been tested in the above way, but many others have died in Christ without ever having been tested in the above way.

3. Can it be said that the faith of NONE of those who died in Christ without ever having being tested in the above way, would have proved too shallow for them to remain in the Vine had they been tested in the above way?

"The party's not over until the lady sings"

IMO: The reason you see the last three chapters of the Bible concluding what began in the first three chapters of the Bible (with Satan being released again to deceive mankind one last time in Revelation 20) is because the resurrected, immortal sheep (shallow faith whose faith had never been tested) still need to be separated from the goats

- but those who had already been tested and had overcome when they were tested are promised that the second death will have no authority over them, and their names will never be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

IMO: Our faith is indeed what overcomes the world - but Jesus Himself told us that the faith of some is shallow, and they will fall away when tested.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The questions below are an exercise to explain to you what I'm saying, so I'm not demanding that you answer these questions (but obviously also not telling you that you cannot comment on them, either):

How does this:

"And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended." (Mark 4:16-17).

square up with this:

John 5
4 For everything that has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1(a) Did those Jesus mentioned in Mark 4:16-17 believe the Word when they received it with gladness?
(b) How long did they endure?
(c) Why did they fall away?
(d) Is Jesus teaching us that their faith was shallow, and this is why they fell away when their faith was tested?
(e) In Jesus' parable, would they have "remained in the Vine" if affliction and persecution did NOT arise for the Word's sake?

2. What does Jesus' parable tell us about the reason why the group which Jesus says will fall away (and actually wind up betraying their former brothers) fell away at the end of the age when the believers are delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake (Matthew 24:9-14)?

Bearing in mind that in all generations across the last 1.900+ years, the faith of some has been tested in the above way, but many others have died in Christ without ever having been tested in the above way.

3. Can it be said that the faith of NONE of those who died in Christ without ever having being tested in the above way, would have proved too shallow for them to remain in the Vine had they been tested in the above way?

"The party's not over until the lady sings"

IMO: The reason you see the last three chapters of the Bible concluding what began in the first three chapters of the Bible (with Satan being released again to deceive mankind one last time in Revelation 20) is because the resurrected, immortal sheep (shallow faith whose faith had never been tested) still need to be separated from the goats

- but those who had already been tested and had overcome when they were tested are promised that the second death will have no authority over them, and their names will never be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

IMO: Our faith is indeed what overcomes the world - but Jesus Himself told us that the faith of some is shallow, and they will fall away when tested.

I don't even know how to respond to this. I see no scripture anywhere which teaches that any of the dead will be tested after being resurrected. I don't see any scripture that even comes close to saying such a thing. Instead, scripture teaches that today is the day and now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2). And it says in Hebrews 9:27 that man is appointed to die once and then the judgment (judgment, not testing). So, I just disagree with that idea completely. Not sure what else I can say about it. Just have to agree to disagree.