HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[Davidpt]

What is the first resurrection?

What's in question, what is meant by the first resurrection in Revelation 20 and who is it being applied to in Revelation 20? If we view the first resurrection as a 'type' of resurrection, it can involve Christ's resurrection and still mean in Revelation 20 the bodily resurrection of the saints at the 2nd coming.

By 'types' of resurrection, I'm meaning something like this.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life = 1 type of resurrection.

they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation = another type of resurrection.

The latter never precedes the former. IOW, until all of the former has taken place first, the latter cannot take place in the meantime. It would be ludicrous to think anyone meant in Revelation 20:6 are going to be part of the latter resurrection, rather than part of the former. But that is exactly what Amil and NOSAS teaches. Once again, Amil and OSAS does not teach that. And that might be relevant if, only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't. Except NOSAS is also Biblical, thus Amil cannot be the correct position since only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS is not Biblical, is not the correct position. IOW, Amils can't use an invalid argument to prove Amil. The argument has to be valid first.

 

[Zao is life]

What you need to be asking yourself, does your position agree or disagree with Revelation 20:6? That verse says every single person that has part in the first resurrection, they are blessed and holy. That verse equally says every single person that has part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power4 over them. Meaning none of them, as in zero, that have part in the first resurrection, can somehow wind up in the LOF, meaning the 2nd death has power over them after all. Thus contradicting what John plainly and clearly said, that the 2nd death has no power over anyone that has part in the first resurrection.

Verse 6 is talking about those who verse 4 is talking about, so I'm going to ask you some questions:

1. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group Rev 20:4 & 6 are talking about?
2. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group 1 Thess 4:16 is talking about?
3. If I die in Christ and I'm raised from the dead when Christ returns, will I be alive to see the events Rev 20:7-9 are talking about?

 

[Davidpt]

I think you think that if you state an opinion enough times that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works. Scripture refutes your error. It forbids your doctrine.

Salvation is a gift from God emanating out of His heart of grace.

The Oxford Dictionary defines a gift as: "a thing given or received without payment."

We can't purchase it, we can't earn it, we don't deserve it, we cannot work for it. We just receive it.

So, what it that gift?

Romans 6:23 says: "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

There you have it! It is a gift, and that gift is eternal life.

Eternal life is a gift we receive in this life.

How long is "eternal"?

How long is "everlasting"?

There is the end of the debate!

Ephesians 2:8-9 affirms: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

God gives us the gift of faith to respond. It is not a quality or ability we possess. Salvation involves us responding to the effectual call of God. That voice is a quickening voice – it brings life to the dead. It is a free gift that is received when you first acknowledge your guilt and second acknowledge your need of Christ as Savior and Lord.

Many people in our day put their trust in themselves instead of Jesus Christ – and then they think they are going to waltz into heaven and high-five Jesus and live with Him forever. What foolishness.

Prove to the rest of us you are being intellectually honest here in light of the following. Since you want to use the book of Romans to prove your point, I will do the same.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Prove that these verses are not being applied to Gentiles. Prove that these verses don't mean when a Gentile is graffed into the good olive tree that this equals salvation. Prove that any Jews cutoff from the good olive tree equals salvation.

Where we are at thus far. No way are you going to dispute that these verses are in regards to Gentiles. No way are you going to dispute that it means salvation for any Gentile graffed into the good olive tree. No way are you going to dispute that if Jews get cutoff from the good olive tree that this equals no salvation for them.

With all of this in mind, the following is going to either fully expose you as someone intellectually honest or someone intellectually dishonest. Unfortunately, and I wish I was wrong here, but I suspect it's going to fully expose you as being one who fits the latter not the former.


Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Assuming these things were to happen to a Gentile after having been graffed into the good olive tree--lest he also spare not thee--if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You don't dispute that any Gentile graffed into the good olive tree equals saved. Now you need to prove how verse 21-22 does not equal NOSAS if that were to happen to any Gentiles after being graffed into the good olive tree. You cannot argue, and be taken as being intellectually honest, that if verses 21-22 were to happen to any Gentiles after being graffed into the good olive tree, that this equals they were never saved to begin. That contradicts that you already agree for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals saved.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you think that if you state an opinion enough times that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works.

LOL. But that's the way you think it works for you.

Which is obviously the reason why you think that anyone who disagrees with your opinions thinks what you think about stating your opinions over and over again.

 

[WPM]

Prove to the rest of us you are being intellectually honest here in light of the following. Since you want to use the book of Romans to prove your point, I will do the same.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Prove that these verses are not being applied to Gentiles. Prove that these verses don't mean when a Gentile is graffed into the good olive tree that this equals salvation. Prove that any Jews cutoff from the good olive tree equals salvation.

Where we are at thus far. No way are you going to dispute that these verses are in regards to Gentiles. No way are you going to dispute that it means salvation for any Gentile graffed into the good olive tree. No way are you going to dispute that if Jews get cutoff from the good olive tree that this equals no salvation for them.

With all of this in mind, the following is going to expose you are someone intellectually honest on someone intellectually dishonest.


Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Assuming these things were to happen to a Gentile after having been graffed into the good olive tree--lest he also spare not thee--if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You don't dispute that any Gentile graffed into the good olive tree equals saved. Now you need to prove how verse 21-22 does not equal NOSAS if that were to happen to any Gentiles after being graffed into the good olive tree. You cannot argue, and be taken as being intellectually honest, that if verses 21-22 were to happen to any Gentiles after being graffed into the good olive tree, that this equals they were never saved to begin. That contradicts that you already agree for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals saved.

Address what I wrote instead of diverting. And less of the intellectual dishonesty nonsense that you often hurl. You're the last person I'm going to take lectures on that subject from.

 

[WPM]

LOL. But that's the way you think it works for you.

Which is obviously the reason why you think that anyone who disagrees with your opinions thinks what you think about stating your opinions over and over again.

Again, totally avoidance of the biblical issues, and a desire to divert into irrelevancies.

 

[WPM]

What's in question, what is meant by the first resurrection in Revelation 20 and who is it being applied to in Revelation 20? If we view the first resurrection as a 'type' of resurrection, it can involve Christ's resurrection and still mean in Revelation 20 the bodily resurrection of the saints at the 2nd coming.

By 'types' of resurrection, I'm meaning something like this.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life = 1 type of resurrection.

they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation = another type of resurrection.

The latter never precedes the former. IOW, until all of the former has taken place first, the latter cannot take place in the meantime. It would be ludicrous to think anyone meant in Revelation 20:6 are going to be part of the latter resurrection, rather than part of the former. But that is exactly what Amil and NOSAS teaches. Once again, Amil and OSAS does not teach that. And that might be relevant if, only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't. Except NOSAS is also Biblical, thus Amil cannot be the correct position since only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS is not Biblical, is not the correct position. IOW, Amils can't use an invalid argument to prove Amil. The argument has to be valid first.

You cannot give straight answers. If you were to say it the way it is it would forbid your doctrine.

 

[WPM]

LOL. But that's the way you think it works for you.

Which is obviously the reason why you think that anyone who disagrees with your opinions thinks what you think about stating your opinions over and over again.

It is near impossible to get you to address the Word of God. That is because the Book is the enemy of your doctrine.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Our Lord is telling us here that the casting out devils is proof that His kingdom has come. He highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. This was proof that He was indeed the true Messiah and that He carried all power over Satan.

As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Christ said: “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.” This was a direct reference to the unchallenged power of Satan over the nations in the Old Testament. The vast territory of the Gentile nations was under his evil control. He governed the nations at will and operated in an unmolested environment – thus “his goods” were said to be “in peace.”

Satan’s wicked grip over the nations was loosened by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Many millions were liberated by His message of hope and liberation. In fact, if anything was representative of Christ’s ministry it was the binding of the works of darkness and the deliverance of the afflicted. Christ defeated the power of Satan and all his minions with His sinless life, His vicarious death and His victorious resurrection and therefore wholly fulfilled His earthly assignment. The advance of the kingdom of God therefore has seen the pushing back of the devil’s frontline throughout the nations. It is not that he can’t still create havoc and deceive people; it is that he can’t hinder the triumphant advance of the Gospel throughout the world.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[Davidpt]

Verse 6 is talking about those who verse 4 is talking about, so I'm going to ask you some questions:

1. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group Rev 20:4 & 6 are talking about?
2. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group 1 Thess 4:16 is talking about?
3. If I die in Christ and I'm raised from the dead when Christ returns, will I be alive to see the events Rev 20:7-9 are talking about?

Yes to 1 and 2. Yes to 3. This per Premil though. 3 would not be applicable to Amils while 1 and 2 would be applicable to both Premil and Amil.

As to 3, what point are you trying to make here? Keeping in mind, that the rest of the dead don't live again until the thousand years expire. Which means only those that have part in the first resurrection rise at the beginning of the thousand years. And that Revelation 20:6 indicates every single person that has part in the first resurrection, they are blessed and holy, and on such the 2nd death has no power over them, meaning none of them can be cast into the LOF after having part in the first resurrection when Christ returns. That assuming Premil.

 

[WPM]

Verse 6 is talking about those who verse 4 is talking about, so I'm going to ask you some questions:

1. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group Rev 20:4 & 6 are talking about?
2. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group 1 Thess 4:16 is talking about?
3. If I die in Christ and I'm raised from the dead when Christ returns, will I be alive to see the events Rev 20:7-9 are talking about?

Futurists can call “the beast” (Revelation 17:8, 11) “antichrist” (1 John 4:3) and “the mystery of iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7), “that man of sin” (2 Thessalonians 2:3), “the son of perdition” (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and “that Wicked” (2 Thessalonians 2:8) a literal physical “man” all they want, but they cannot get away from the fact that whoever this “man” is, he has been alive for over 2000 years.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18: “ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 John 4:3: “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

2 Thessalonians 2:7: “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work.”

The Beast

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend”

Revelation 17:8: “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:11: “the beast that was, and is not, even he is.”

What human being do you know has been alive on earth for over 2,000 years?

 

[Davidpt]

Address what I wrote instead of diverting. And less of the intellectual dishonesty nonsense that you often hurl. You're the last person I'm going to take lectures on that subject from.

IOW, you fully know that if you address that post which trumps anything that you have submitted that supposedly proves only OSAS is Biblical, that this will expose you as fully intellectually dishonest. Maybe you are pulling the wool over some eyes in here with your trickery, you not pulling the wool over my eyes. I know exactly why you are afraid to take that post on. And so do you. I already addressed that other post of yours with that post of mine, except you are too afraid to prove your position in light of my post. IOW, in your mind, your post already proves your position. While in my mind it does not prove your position until you also prove it in light of the post I submitted.

Assuming one of us is right, that means the one that is right, no counter arguments can trump it. Assuming you think you are the one correct here, prove to the rest of us that the post I submitted does not trump what you submitted.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse does not say nor mean the following.

Blessed and holy are some, thus not all, that have part in the first resurrection, on some that have part in the first resurrection the second death hath no power, while on others that also have part in the first resurrection the second death hath power. As if Revelation 20:6 is conditional. As if, once someone has part in the first resurrection, they can somehow lose part in it. Except there is not an 'if' anywhere in verse 6, nor implied, period.

But Revelation 20:6 is only talking about those Revelation 20:4 is talking about, which is why I asked you these questions below:

Verse 6 is talking about those who verse 4 is talking about, so I'm going to ask you some questions:

1. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group Rev 20:4 & 6 are talking about?
2. If I die a natural death but in Christ before the beast ascends from the abyss, will I be part of the group 1 Thess 4:16 is talking about?
3. If I die in Christ and I'm raised from the dead when Christ returns, will I be alive to see the events Rev 20:7-9 are talking about?

In my view the first resurrection is bodily, and once one has put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, they can't then lose that somehow since that would contradict Revelation 20:6, for one.

In my view immortality will be dependent on having the life of God abiding in you and your drinking continually of the water of life or eating continually of the tree of life (Adam lost his bodily immortality when death entered into his body, and that death came upon all mankind).

But Christ is the resurrection from that death and the eternal life. So the first death there was hope of escape from.

But the second death is the destruction of death, and it is also the lake of fire. Christ told us to fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna - which is the word Jesus always used when talking about eternal damnation.

IMO Jesus taught NOSAS in Mark 4:16-17.

Mark 4:16-17 talks about those whose faith proved shallow when they were tested. They had not allowed the Word of God to sink deep enough into their souls in order to remain in the Vine when persecution arose because of the Word:

Mark 4:16-17
"And these are those likewise being sown on stony places; who, when they hear the Word, immediately receive it with gladness. But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended."

Matthew 24:9-14
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Our salvation is not brought about BY our faith in Christ. Our salvation has been brought about BY Christ through His death for sin and resurrection from the dead, and our salvation is brought about THROUGH our faith in Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

Futurists can call “the beast” (Revelation 17:8, 11) “antichrist” (1 John 4:3) and “the mystery of iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7), “that man of sin” (2 Thessalonians 2:3), “the son of perdition” (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and “that Wicked” (2 Thessalonians 2:8) a literal physical “man” all they want, but they cannot get away from the fact that whoever this “man” is, he has been alive for over 2000 years.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18: “ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 John 4:3: “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

2 Thessalonians 2:7: “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work.”

The Beast

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend”

Revelation 17:8: “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:11: “the beast that was, and is not, even he is.”

What human being do you know has been alive on earth for over 2,000 years?

Sorry David @Davidpt but your post in response to what I posted to you is too long and full of red highlghted scriptures misinterpreted by you which has all been repeated ad nauseum by you as though they can make your assertions true. I will read it when I get to it if I ever get to it.

Oh sorry. I mean WPM

 

[Zao is life]

IOW, you fully know that if you address that post which trumps anything that you have submitted that supposedly proves only OSAS is Biblical, that this will expose you as fully intellectually dishonest. Maybe you are pulling the wool over some eyes in here with your trickery, you not pulling the wool over my eyes. I know exactly why you are afraid to take that post on. And so do you. I already addressed that other post of yours with that post of mine, except you are too afraid to prove your position in light of my post.

It's called duplicity.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes to 1 and 2. Yes to 3. This per Premil though. 3 would not be applicable to Amils while 1 and 2 would be applicable to both Premil and Amil.

As to 3, what point are you trying to make here? Keeping in mind, that the rest of the dead don't live again until the thousand years expire. Which means only those that have part in the first resurrection rise at the beginning of the thousand years. And that Revelation 20:6 indicates every single person that has part in the first resurrection, they are blessed and holy, and on such the 2nd death has no power over them, meaning none of them can be cast into the LOF after having part in the first resurrection when Christ returns. That assuming Premil.

Where you and I disagree is on who Revelation 20:6 is referring to. I believe those mentioned in Revelation 20:6 are the group who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast

- a subsection of the total population to be raised from the dead as per 1 Thess 4:16.

So also not necessarily including those mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 who clearly escaped that martyrdom.

 

[Davidpt]

But Revelation 20:6 is only talking about those Revelation 20:4 is talking about, which is why I asked you these questions below:

Per your view who else do you have rising from the dead at the beginning of the millennium? Keeping in mind that Revelation 20 only has two groups rising from the dead. The first group, those that have part in the first resurrection, these rise at the beginning of the millennium. The 2nd group, the rest of the dead, these rise after of the millennium. I'm not seeing a 3rd group in the text that neither fits group 1 or 2.

Also keeping in mind, per Pemil the thousand years reigning with Christ is still future. As pertaining to question 1 and 2 that you submitted, how could any of them not be meaning anyone in Revelation 20:6? Granted, not worshiping the beast was not their fate as opposed to the fate of those meant in verse 4. But even so, verse 6 has this in common with those in verse 4, that they all reign with Christ a thousand years.

I'm not necessarily dissing your position. I just don't yet fully understand some of the logic in it.

 

[Davidpt]

It's called duplicity.

Duplicity refers to dishonest behavior, particularly acting in bad faith and pretending to have one set of intentions while acting under the influence of another. It implies a hidden agenda or double-dealing, with a contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. Essentially, it means being deceptive or disingenuous.

DUPLICITY Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
May 22, 2025 — : contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. ... especially : the belying of one's true intentions by dec...
Merriam-Webster

Duplicity - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms - Vocabulary.com
Definitions of duplicity. noun. acting in bad faith; deception by pretending to entertain one set of intentions while acting under...
Vocabulary.com
Word of the Day: Duplicity - Merriam-Webster
Aug 23, 2023 — Duplicity is a formal word that refers to dishonest behavior meant to trick or deceive someone. //Essentially, it means being deceptive or disingenuous.

Merriam-Webster

I think you picked the perfect word to describe what he is doing to a T. He could prove us all wrong by showing how his position is still true in light of what I argued. But he can't do that unless he takes on my post first and then proves that if a Gentile gets graffed into the good olive, that since this equals saved, but if this same Gentile were to get cutoff from the good olive tree, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with, thus NOSAS is not Biblical, only OSAS is Biblical. Only an obvious plain as day deceiver could or would possibly argue that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree means saved. But if this same Gentile is ever cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with. That this then means only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

 

[Zao is life]

Per your view who else do you have rising from the dead at the beginning of the millennium? Keeping in mind that Revelation 20 only has two groups rising from the dead. The first group, those that have part in the first resurrection, these rise at the beginning of the millennium. The 2nd group, the rest of the dead, these rise after of the millennium. I'm not seeing a 3rd group in the text that neither fits group 1 or 2.

In my view the groups you don't see mentioned in Revelation 20:4 & 6 is the rest of the total population of those who will be resurrected (who are all mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16) and the group mentioned in 1 Thess 4;17.

Also keeping in mind, per Pemil the thousand years reigning with Christ is still future.

My question:

Are all the members of the 12 tribes of Israel ruling as judges over the tribes of Israel during the millennium? Are they ruling over themselves?

Bear in mind that I do not believe in mortals during the millennium.

As pertaining to question 1 and 2 that you submitted, how could any of them not be meaning anyone in Revelation 20:6? Granted, not worshiping the beast was not there fate as opposed to the fate of those meant in verse 4. But even so, verse 6 has this in comnon with those in verse 4, that they all reign with Christ a thousand years.

I think we're talking past one another a little here because I do not have being resurrected from the dead conflated with "automatically" reigning with Christ as judges over the nations / 12 tribes of Israel. Nor do I have every citizen of 1 Thess 4:16-17's population conflated with those who are reigning with Christ and are promised that the second death will have no authority over them, and that their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Nor do I have immortality conflated with OSAS. I do not believe in OSAS for created human beings - Adam should be proof to us that there is no such thing as maintaining an everlasting state of being alive [zao] in an immortal body that does not decay even though the immortal created human being chose to follow Satan by believing his deception.

The first death that Adam died was undone by the death and resurrection of Christ. The second death is the destruction of death in the lake of fire, and the God who created us will always be able to destroy both soul and body in the lake of fire.

I'm not necessarily dissing your position. I just don't yet fully understand some of the logic in it.

Thanks. I know, it's not something you'll hear taught from a pulpit or by a theology lecturer in a college.

 

[WPM]

IOW, you fully know that if you address that post which trumps anything that you have submitted that supposedly proves only OSAS is Biblical, that this will expose you as fully intellectually dishonest. Maybe you are pulling the wool over some eyes in here with your trickery, you not pulling the wool over my eyes. I know exactly why you are afraid to take that post on. And so do you. I already addressed that other post of yours with that post of mine, except you are too afraid to prove your position in light of my post. IOW, in your mind, your post already proves your position. While in my mind it does not prove your position until you also prove it in light of the post I submitted.

Assuming one of us is right, that means the one that is right, no counter arguments can trump it. Assuming you think you are the one correct here, prove to the rest of us that the post I submitted does not trump what you submitted.

LOL. The reason why you diverted it that these like multiple Scriptures forbid Arminianism.

 

[WPM]

Sorry David @Davidpt but your post in response to what I posted to you is too long and full of red highlghted scriptures misinterpreted by you which has all been repeated ad nauseum by you as though they can make your assertions true. I will read it when I get to it if I ever get to it.

Oh sorry. I mean WPM

Checkmate!

This is why Amil is growing on these forums. Premil has no answer to the facts! Keep it up! You are doing more to promote Amil than I can do.