HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[Jay Ross]

No, your made up timeline is not my problem at all.

So, what you are saying is that you have not seen or read what I have posted in the scriptures. That is a "your problem" and not a "my problem".

I did provide the basis as to how I arrived at my conclusion as to the approximate year in which the final judgement will take place.

Oh well, your lack of expertise is showing then.

 

[Davidpt]

You need to ask yourself how the second death has no power over those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ. I believe Revelation 20:6 indicates that one must have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them.

Tell me, does the second death have power over you right now? Does the second death have power over the dead in Christ right now?

In my view the 2nd death is not even relevant until there is a resurrection of the dead first, and that the LOF is in view. In the meantime since NOSAS is indeed Biblical, some that are initially saved can fall away, which means they are cast into the LOF in the end, the 2nd death. That means the 2nd death death has power over them. Revelation 20:6 indicates that the 2nd death has no power, as in zero, over anyone that has part in the first resurrection. John said these are blessed and holy. No one cast into the LOF is blessed and holy. Nowhere in Revelation 20:6 does John say nor imply that some of them are not blessed, that some of them are unholy. My position is NOSAS and does not contradict Revelation 20:6. The reason why it doesn't contradict it, those that fall away never have part in the first resurrection to begin with because they fell away instead, meaning they fell away before the first resurrection is ever fulfilled at the end of this age during the 2nd coming.

 

[Jay Ross]

Does this mean you are basically Postmil??

That might be one label that you might want to apply to what I post.

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


Verse 21 is meaning Revelation 19:19-21. Verse 22---and shall be shut up in the prison--is meaning the thousand years recorded in Revelation 20. and after many days shall they be visited--is meaning Satan's little season in Revelation 20.

Let's say, for example, that Revelation 19:19-21 is fulfilled in 2064. A thousand years later would then be 3064, thus the end of the 7th age. Keeping in mind, still per my view which might not be your view, Revelation 19:19-21 cannot be fulfilled unless Christ has bodily returned first. Which would then mean per my view, Christ is bodily present on the earth the entire thousand years, thus Premil.

I hold to a very different understanding as to when Isaiah 24:21-22 will take place. In Ezechiel 34: 25-30 God makes this promise to the Israelites after He has gathered them to Himself.

Ezekiel 34:25-30: - 25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them and cause evil beasts to cease from the earth; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe within my fertile field; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the earth devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger on the earth, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"​

Notice that God intends to remove the beasts, i.e. Daniel 7:1-12, and the kings of the earth who have been the Little Horns armies to trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts Daniel 8:9-14, shortly after Israel Repents of their continual idolatrous worship and He has gathered them to Himself. This will not happen until the fulness with respect to the time of the Gentiles has been completed i.e. after the 2,300 years have been completed, Romans 11:25b-26, after which all of Isreal is save because they have repented of their sins.

We will see Isaiah 24:21-22 being fulfilled at Armageddon with the completion of the Sixth Bowl Judgement around the year 2044 AD. Remember that we have already seen the Three Frog like spirits preforming signs and wonders in the 9/11 when they attacked the three pillars of our society which we worshipped at that time. At this present time we are seeing the preparation of the kings of the earth to be drawn to assemble at Armageddon for one last tilt at trampling God's earthly Hosts in the Land of Canaan.

As an aside, the seventh Bowl Judgement events unfolded during the twentieth century, when the witness events all took place as prescribed in the Seventh Bowl prophecy itself.

Now the fulfilment of the Isaiah 24:21-22 prophecy has all of the judged kings of the earth and the judged heavenly host being gathered together on the face of the earth so that they can be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for many days to await the time f their punishment.

What is recorded in Rev 19:19-21 is Jesus capturing the Beast and the Little Horn/False Prophet and casting them into the Lake of Fire. Then in Rev 20 Christ then captures Satan and also casts him into the Lake of Fire. Since this is what will take place, then the capture and casting of Satan, the Beast and the False prophet into the Lake of fire can only be post millennium.

Both rev 19 and 20 are records of two parallel storylines that unfold at the same time.

FYI a season and a little while period when their time spans are added together equals an age in duration.

Also know that Rev 20 provides no indication that Christ will rule on the face of the earth during the 1,000 years when He is ruling as our High priest.

Shalom​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


Undeniably verse 21 is meaning Revelation 19:19-21. That is not even debatable.

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Undeniably verse 19 is meaning 2 Peter 3:10-12. That is not even debatable. Right? I guess if you can act like your opinions are facts, so can I.

So, do you interpret verses 21 and 22 in light of what is written in verses 19 and 20? If you insist on taking verses 21 and 22 literally, then you should be consistent and take verses 19 and 20 literally as well. And, taken literally, those verses don't allow for any mortals to survive the earth with it being "utterly broken down" and "clean dissolved". So, how exactly are you interpreting verses 21 and 22? What similarities are you seeing in Revelation 19:19-21? I don't see any mention in Revelation 19:19-21 of anyone being "gathered in the pit" and "shut up in the prison".

Which then means something has to explain verse 22 post that of the fulfilling of verse 21, where verse 21 is also meaning Revelation 19:19:21. Premil can explain verse 22, Amil can't.

How does Premil explain verses 19 and 20? Amil can.

Per Amil once Christ has bodily returned there is no such thing post Christ's return that involves many days. Yet verse 22, after verse 21 is fulfilled, involves being shut up in the prison, and then after many days they shall be visited. Everyone should at least know what to be visited typically means in the Bible per some contexts. It usually has to do with God's wrath and His judgment on the ones being visited. But let's just ignore any and all of that. After all, and I'm being sarcastic here, Amil is the correct position, period. Amil doesn't need to explain Isaiah 24:22 since Amil is the correct position, period. Imagine that of all things. The view that can't explain something, it is the correct view, rather than the view that can explain something, it is the correct view.

How exactly are you interpreting verses 21 and 22? All this hot air and you didn't even bother explaining how you interpret the passage. That's typical of you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my view the 2nd death is not even relevant until there is a resurrection of the dead first, and that the LOF is in view.

LOL. Of course you would see it that way because of your extreme doctrinal bias. You don't think anyone can say right now whether or not they will experience the second death? Do you think the dead in Christ do not yet know if they will experience the second death or not? Does the second death have any power over them? It's typical of you to just dismiss the many arguments that refute your view instead of addressing them.

In the meantime since NOSAS is indeed Biblical, some that are initially saved can fall away, which means they are cast into the LOF in the end, the 2nd death. That means the 2nd death death has power over them.

Does the second death have power over any of those who kept their faith until the end of their lives? It doesn't, right? So, how is it that the second death has no power over them? Clearly they do not need to wait until they are bodily resurrected in order for that to be the case.

Do you believe they spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection? Do you not care that other scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection? You don't think that's worth taking into consideration for some reason?

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Revelation 20:6 indicates that the 2nd death has no power, as in zero, over anyone that has part in the first resurrection.

Exactly. So, if that was talking about the mass bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ when He returns, then tell me how those who are alive and remain will avoid the second death.

John said these are blessed and holy.

Are only those who are bodily resurrected when Christ returns blessed and holy, but not those who are alive and remain?

No one cast into the LOF is blessed and holy.

LOL. Who said otherwise?

Nowhere in Revelation 20:6 does John say nor imply that some of them are not blessed, that some of them are unholy.

Who said otherwise? Not me. Why do you make so many strawman arguments? Do you just enjoy wasting your time?

My position is NOSAS and does not contradict Revelation 20:6.

NOSAS has nothing to do with it. Amill does not contradict Revelation 20:6, but Premill does. Premill ignores the fact that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22, Rev 1:5-6) and that His followers are "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9) and Jesus "made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" long ago (Revelation 1:5-6). Scripture speaks of the things described in Revelation 20:6 as a current reality, but Premill contradicts that.

The reason why it doesn't contradict it, those that fall away never have part in the first resurrection to begin with because they fell away instead, meaning they fell away before the first resurrection is ever fulfilled at the end of this age during the 2nd coming.

That's based on your faulty assumption that the first resurrection refers to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ. But, in giving the order of bodily resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Paul said Christ's resurrection was the first in order.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment, and the cities of the nations are seen to fall when the seventh of the seven angels pours out his bowl of wrath.

In Revelation 8:5-6 the 7th seal is opened - and now we read again about lightnings and voices, and thunders - but also an earthquake: "And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred."

I at least like to see people put forth an intellectual argument or rebut, props.

The 7th Trump indeed brings Jesus back via the 7th Vial. And its the 7th Seal that brings God's wrath, there is no wrath however in the Seals they simply seal up the the judgment scroll. That is why the 7th seal is over in Rev. 8 as you point out. So, when the 7th seal is taken off what happened? An Angel took the censor [of prayers]filled it with fore (THINK Incoming Asteroid)and cast it down to earth. This asteroid impact will cause call manner of bad tidings, but an Earthquake would be a major sign of an impact, and it would be on fire as it hit, and it would be worse than all the Nuclear bombs on earth now going off in one place (Thunder & Lightnings).

In Revelation 11:19 the 7th trumpet sounds - and now we read again about lightnings and voices, and thunders - but also an earthquake, and great hail: "And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His covenant, and occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail.

Here is a major problem with some people via Revelation. The 11:19 verse is the very end, but not the ACTUAL EVENTS of the 7th Trump. Remember what Rev. 8:13 says? The final three Trumps sounding will bring the Three Woes, right? So, just like Rev. 11 speaks about the 2nd Woe (THINK NOW) but we see the actual 2nd Woe in Rev. 9, just because we see the 7th Trump being blown and are told Jesus is taking over, it is not the ACTUAL EEND TIME EVENTS YET, the Two-witnesses get the 1/3 Jews to repent then they pray down all of God's plagues & wrath , like Moses did in Egypt, thus after the pray down the 7th Trump, their mission of 1260 days (starting at 1335 days before the 2nd comin) is complete, and thus they know the END COMES VIA THE 7th Trump, but it only happens in Rev. 16, you sees, the 7th Trump emits the 7 Vials which are the 3rd Woe. Thus Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 16:19 are the exact same event, as is Rev. 14:17-20 where the Wicked Grapes are killed and Rev. 19, the Marriage Supper when the wicked are Judged. This confuses people, God can spin a yarn mostly no one can understand, He is God.

Rev. 1 is Eternal Jesus in all his glory (The THINGS you have seen...plus the disciples saw his death)

Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age, 7 = divine completion, the time is the things THAT ARE (Present Church Age)

Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture and everything after is the HEREAFTER or 70th week events.

Rev. 19 is the Marriage of the Church to the Lamb AND the Return so thus chapter lasts 7 years

Rev. 14 lasts 7 years, in a way, we see Israel (144,000 really 5 Million or 1/3) we seen the Wicked Grapes destroyed, but we also see a cinematic FLASHBACK to the Pr Trib. Rapture, with Jesus from UPON A CLOUD Harvesting his Church. COME UP HERE remember?

Now we can go in order, Rev. 4, 5 and 6 all happen during the first 3.5 years of the 70th week tribulation, but we see the events happing in Heaven. The Church is seen in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10 the REDEEMED, and in Rev. 6 the Church us seen before the Seals are ever opened. No Wrath can fall until the Jews in Revelation 7 (the 144,000 is a CODE for ALL Israel who repent) are SEALED (Saved by the Holy Spirit via Elijah and Moses, IMHO) and then protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, ONLY THEN can God's Wrath fall. Read the verses, God says HOLD UP the FOUR WINDS (Judgments) which hurt the Earth, Sea and Trees, and elsewhere it says HURT NOT the Earth, Sea and Trees until we have SEALED or SAVED the 144,000 or the 5 Million Jews (1/3). So, what hurts the Earth, Seas and Trees? The Rev. 8 Trumps, 1-4, all are just four phases of one event, and Asteroid Impact. Now we can move on.

Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea JUST BEFORE the DOTL falls on mankind. We see a FLASH UP to the Pre Trib. Raptured Saints who came out of great tribulation via the Church Age where millions of Christians were murdered, GREAT TRIBULATION is not the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION, that is the fatal mistake most people make. IF.......the Church was Raptured Pre Trib. did we not all come out of Great Tribulation? Jesus says we did in John 16:33, he says in me you will have peace, but IN THIS WORLD you will have [continual] TRIBULATION. So, of course we the Church have went through much tribulation and still do, fellow Egyptian Christians, and Sudanese brothers are still killed today. Our blood turned Rome from a Beast to a conveyor belt of the Gospel, we gave Rome the Rev. 13 MORTAL WOUND.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (15 and 16 is really one chapter) are the 42 Months of Gods Wrath. Every other chapter is a specific Parenthetical Citation Chapter showing us other events going on at the exact same time as Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 16. Only Rev. 14 and 19 are longer than 3.5 years, Rev. 11 is 1260 days but it is staggered, starting 1335 days before the 2nd coming or 75 days before the Middle of the week so they can get Israel to repent before the DOTL so they can flee BEFORE the 1260 Conquering at the 1290, which is 45 days after the 1335 but 30 days before the 1260.

1335 equals the Two-witnesses who show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming ends all these wonders.
45 days later we get...........
The 1290 AoD which is1290 days before ALL THESE WONDERS or Things end.
30 days later we get...........
The 1260 DOTL events, where the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering 1260 days before the 2nd coming.

Getting long so I will leave off here, why would you reply and not at least try to rebut the 7 Feasts that show the whole history of the world? When you do that you lose the debate brother. It means you have no answers or counter points for all of my points.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, what you are saying is that you have not seen or read what I have posted in the scriptures. That is a "your problem" and not a "my problem".

No, I've seen what you posted and it's total nonsense. Sorry to be the one to inform you of that. And that is definitely not my problem at all. It's only yours.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, I've seen what you posted and it's total nonsense. Sorry to be the one to inform you of that. And that is definitely not my problem at all. It's only yours.

 

[Gottservant]

This is not uncommon, but I think you are confusing what will happen next, with the speed at which it will happen.

The New Heavens and New Earth are established, but they begin as a 'seed' and grow accordingly (not in a rush, but in a way that we do not know how).

 

[Davidpt]

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Undeniably verse 19 is meaning 2 Peter 3:10-12. That is not even debatable. Right? I guess if you can act like your opinions are facts, so can I.

So, do you interpret verses 21 and 22 in light of what is written in verses 19 and 20? If you insist on taking verses 21 and 22 literally, then you should be consistent and take verses 19 and 20 literally as well. And, taken literally, those verses don't allow for any mortals to survive the earth with it being "utterly broken down" and "clean dissolved". So, how exactly are you interpreting verses 21 and 22? What similarities are you seeing in Revelation 19:19-21? I don't see any mention in Revelation 19:19-21 of anyone being "gathered in the pit" and "shut up in the prison".


How does Premil explain verses 19 and 20? Amil can.


How exactly are you interpreting verses 21 and 22? All this hot air and you didn't even bother explaining how you interpret the passage. That's typical of you.

As to verse 21 and 22 in Isaiah 24, literal vs not literal, is not relevant. It doesn't matter if some of it's literal or not. One thing that is literal though, these many days meant. No way can many days mean only one day. And that presents a major problem for Amil if Amil agrees that Isaiah 24:21 is meaning Revelation 19:17-21. Per Amil there is no such thing as many days remaining once Christ returns. Per Premil there is such a thing.


Isaiah 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.


Maybe compare with...

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
------------------

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.


Compare with...

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
-------------------

But there is still the following below, meaning Isaiah 24:22. What should we compare that with in the NT? Nothing? If so, why? We are able to compare some of these other verses in Isaiah 24 to something recorded in the NT. If verse 22 can't be compared with the thousand years, then the end of satan's little season and what that leads to, what can verse 22 be compared with in the NT?

Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

It would be different if we could apply verse 22 to something 2000 years ago. In that case verse 21 and 22 could indeed support Amil. But the problem is this. If we apply verse 22 to something 2000 years ago, we have to do the same with Revelation 19:17-21. IOW, one can't have verse 21 in Isaiah 24 meaning 2000 years later, and then have verse 22 meaning 2000 years earlier. IOW, no one is being gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and being shut up in the prison, whatever that might look like when being fulfilled, until verse 21 is fulfilled first. Revelation 19 places the timing of Isaiah 24:21 during the 2nd coming. Only Preterists would disagree. Except you are not a Preterist.

 

[Zao is life]

I at least like to see people put forth an intellectual argument.

No created human being will be able to understand the Revelation using human intellect, no matter how much knowledge we have. We have to ask God to give us the understanding of His Revelation. It's HIS Revelation, not ours.

And because our understanding is not the same as the grace of God in our salvation - which is given freely to ALL those who believe in Christ - to some God will give more understanding, less to others - because without the work needed being done by the reader (familiarizing oneself with the Old Testament), the things in the Revelation that allude to the Old Testament are not going to be understood by the reader.

So, when the 7th seal is taken off what happened? An Angel took the censor [of prayers]filled it with fore (THINK Incoming Asteroid)and cast it down to earth. This asteroid impact will cause call manner of bad tidings, but an Earthquake would be a major sign of an impact, and it would be on fire as it hit, and it would be worse than all the Nuclear bombs on earth now going off in one place (Thunder & Lightnings).

Nowhere does the Revelation tell you the above will happen, nor even what will cause the 'earthquake'. "The stars" have been used as a metaphor for God's elect since Genesis 15:5, and Genesis 37:9 and Revelation 12:1, together with the analogy of untimely figs (produced out of their season) tells us that Revelation 6:13 is not talking about literal events, if we interpret the Revelation by the Revelation (Revelation 6:13 by Revelation 12:1), and if we interpret scripture with scripture:

The same metaphor was used as early as Judges 5:20 when the children of Naphtali and Zebulun fought against Sisera, captain of Jabin's army (Judges 4:6-7), where they are called "the stars in their courses" (metaphor) fighting against enemy armies in Judges 5:20. The saints are also said to be "in the heavens" in Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:1-4; and Ephesians 1:3.

The same metaphor is used by the Old Testament prophets. For example when Isiah prophesies against Babylon and about the coming invasion of the Persian armies:

Isaiah 13
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Describing this calamity Babylon was to suffer, Isaiah earlier on in the same chapter wrote:

9 Behold, the day of Yhwh cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a

The fact that the above prophecy also projects forward to the time of the Day of Christ / Day of the LORD teaches us that the Revelation is using the same biblical metaphor:

Hebrews 12
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

There is also a serious problem with your "seven years", which I believe can only mean that your interpretation of Daniel 9:27 is false:

Daniel 9:26-27 was telling the Jews that the Messiah would be cut off - as Isaiah 53:8 said He would be - by the action of the people - AFTER (H00310 achar] (verse 26) the completion of the first 62 + 7 weeks.

The covenant being spoken about has nothing to do with the man of sin or the beast which is coming. It was talking about the Covenant God made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and the New Covenant in the Messiah's blood.

But the Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week because the people demanded He be cut off, not realizing that in the process He would fulfill the prophecies of 'Messiah son of Joseph' the suffering servant (Isaiah 53).

And because He was cut off through their actions, becoming the Lamb of God, He could not at the time fulfill the remainder of the prophecies of the son of David, the conquering king, becoming the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

There is NO seven years to be completed. Only 42 months remain - and this is the 42 months spoken of in the Revelation.

Also, the Jews all know both who that man was who caused the daily sacrifice to cease, and when that 1,335 days began to be counted, and when it was completed - because to this day they all still celebrate channukah. It's only Christians who want to cut every single prophecy that has already been fulfilled out of its historical context and paste it into their favorite folder labeled "The end of the age and the return of Christ".

The 1,335 days was fulfilled long, long ago by the man who is the biblical type of the man of sin of 2 Thess 2:4 - the one many call "the Antichrist" - and it was fulfilled over a hundred years before Christ came - as was the prophecy that the daily sacrifice would be taken away until that period was completed.

There will be no daily sacrifice taken away again. That daily sacrifice stopped forever when the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D (let alone only for 1,335 days following 70 A.D).

The 1,335 days was not fulfilled following 70 A.D when the daily sacrifice was stopped because of the fact that IT WAS NO LONGER THE HOLY PLACE and only Christ and His church is the temple of God. Therefore it will not be completed following any reconstructed so-called "3rd temple" either.

The truth - which at least all the Jewish Rabbis know - is that the 1,335 days was completed in the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and if this were not so, then the Jews are celebrating a feast called channukah once every year based on fake news.

But many Christians love to bluff themselves into believing that every prophecy must be about them.

The armies mentioned in the 6th trumpet are the same as the armies being gathered for Armageddon in the 6th bowl of wrath, and this is why the kings of the earth mentioned in the 6th seal know that the wrath of God is soon to follow.

The 5th trumpet tells us about the abyss being opened, and just as Revelation 9:4, 13:8 and 16:2 informs us, only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads will be tormented by that plague.

The 5th bowl of wrath (Revelation 16:10-11) is talking about exactly the same torment that the 5th trumpet is talking about

The 5th seal is informing us that the beast is soon to make war against the saints in the great tribulation - which in the entire New Testament refers to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of unbelievers and the unbelieving authorities of this world.

The 7th trumpet begins by telling us that the kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and then informs us about the judgment of the beast and his kingdom - which is the same things we read about in the 7th bowl of wrath, and the reason why we see the same symbols of thunderings, ligthenings and an earthquake in the 7th seal.

Revelation 8:6 should be the start of a new chapter, because they are the beginning of the events that were written in the scroll in heaven before the scroll was sealed with seven seals.

(The chapter divisions were only added to scripture by one man in 1226 A.D and though he did a good job and I for one am very, very grateful for his job (otherwise it would be an enormously difficult task to find ANYTHING again in scripture without having the chapter reference), nevertheless his chapter divisions are not always perfectly placed).

But if you are going to add human imagination about asteroids etc to the text when the text says no such thing, and base your interpretation upon misinterpretations of other parts of scripture (such as Daniel 9:26-27), then your interpretation is going to be less than perfect - in some respects to the same extent that the interpretation of the one who does not ask God for understanding and does not do the necessary Bible study of the Old Testament, but only uses his human intellect and imagination, is completely faulty.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As to verse 21 and 22 in Isaiah 24, literal vs not literal, is not relevant. It doesn't matter if some of it's literal or not. One thing that is literal though, these many days meant. No way can many days mean only one day. And that presents a major problem for Amil if Amil agrees that Isaiah 24:21 is meaning Revelation 19:17-21. Per Amil there is no such thing as many days remaining once Christ returns. Per Premil there is such a thing.


Isaiah 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.


Maybe compare with...

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
------------------

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.


Compare with...

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
-------------------

The Luke 21 passage has heaven and earth passing away when Jesus returns, just like 2 Peter 3:10-12. So, that clearly supports Amil. Neither the Isaiah 24 passage nor the Revelation 19 passage say anything about any mortals surviving His return.

But there is still the following below, meaning Isaiah 24:22. What should we compare that with in the NT? Nothing? If so, why? We are able to compare some of these other verses in Isaiah 24 to something recorded in the NT. If verse 22 can't be compared with the thousand years, then the end of satan's little season and what that leads to, what can verse 22 be compared with in the NT?

Where does verse 22 say anything about mortal survivors living on the earth after Jesus returns?

How do you interpret verse 22?

 

[Zao is life]

In my view the 2nd death is not even relevant until there is a resurrection of the dead first, and that the LOF is in view. In the meantime since NOSAS is indeed Biblical, some that are initially saved can fall away, which means they are cast into the LOF in the end, the 2nd death. That means the 2nd death death has power over them. Revelation 20:6 indicates that the 2nd death has no power, as in zero, over anyone that has part in the first resurrection. John said these are blessed and holy. No one cast into the LOF is blessed and holy. Nowhere in Revelation 20:6 does John say nor imply that some of them are not blessed, that some of them are unholy. My position is NOSAS and does not contradict Revelation 20:6. The reason why it doesn't contradict it, those that fall away never have part in the first resurrection to begin with because they fell away instead, meaning they fell away before the first resurrection is ever fulfilled at the end of this age during the 2nd coming.

1. Who in your opinion is it Christ talking to when He says He will not blot out their names from the book of life in Revelation 3:5; and
2. In your opinion is Revelation 20:6 talking about those being spoken about in Revelation 20:4 plus everyone else who will be resurrected from the dead at the time of the return of Christ, or only about those spoken of in Revelation 20:4?

 

[Davidpt]

1. Who in your opinion is it Christ talking to when He says He will not blot out their names from the book of life in Revelation 3:5; and
2. In your opinion is Revelation 20:6 talking about those being spoken about in Revelation 20:4 plus everyone else who will be resurrected from the dead at the time of the return of Christ, or only about those spoken of in Revelation 20:4?

As to question 1, He is applying that to anyone that falls away, that fails to overcome. One does that in this age, meaning falling away, assuming one does that.

As to question 2, if we factor in something like the following, how can it not include every saved person since the beginning of time?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


As to Daniel 12:2 that might be problematic for Premil the way I interpret that verse. I take it to mean that all saved saints since the beginning of time that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Notice what they awake to--everlasting life.

While at the same time I do not take this part--some to shame and everlasting contempt---to be meaning a thousand years after the former are raised. Nor do I take it to mean every lost person since the beginning of time. I only take it to mean those in the body of Christ that fall away during the past 2000 years. I basically see these being the goats in Matthew 25 and that I do not agree that the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are the same judgment.

Which then means per my view, some of the lost rise when all of the saved rise. Yet not all of the lost rise. These do not enter the millennium, they are apparently cast into the LOF at the beginning of the millennium. Isaiah 66:24 seems to support that since I see it being at the beginning of the millennium when they go forth and look upon those that have betrayed Christ.

Interestingly, in Isaiah 66:24 the following Hebrew word is used for abhorring---dra'own. That same Hebrew word is used in only one other verse---Daniel 12:2--contempt.

The reason I think the beginning of the millennium is meant in Isaiah 66:24 is because this serves as a future warning to those looking upon. Transgress against Me after the millennium this will be your fate as well. But I take the warning to be meaning in regards to those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem(Zechariah 14:16), yet I do not take any of these to be meaning any of the eternally saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As to question 1, He is applying that to anyone that falls away, that fails to overcome. One does that in this age, meaning falling away, assuming one does that.

As to question 2, if we factor in something like the following, how can it not include every saved person since the beginning of time?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


As to Daniel 12:2 that might be problematic for Premil the way I interpret that verse. I take it to mean that all saved saints since the beginning of time that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Notice what they awake to--everlasting life.

While at the same time I do not take this part--some to shame and everlasting contempt---to be meaning a thousand years after the former are raised. Nor do I take it to mean every lost person since the beginning of time. I only take it to mean those in the body of Christ that fall away during the past 2000 years. I basically see these being the goats in Matthew 25 and that I do not agree that the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are the same judgment.

I thought you used common sense when interpreting scripture? There is no common sense in believing that some of the lost will be resurrected 1,000+ years after the rest of the lost. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

Jesus certainly did not teach that.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Where does Jesus give any indication whatsoever that all of the lost will not all be resurrected at the same time? He does just the opposite of that. He has them all being resurrected at the same time unto "damnation". All of the lost will be resurrected at the same time unto "damnation" and to "shame and everlasting contempt".

Which then means per my view, some of the lost rise when all of the saved rise. Yet not all of the lost rise. These do not enter the millennium, they are apparently cast into the LOF at the beginning of the millennium.

Apparently? Where does scripture teach this?

Isaiah 66:24 seems to support that since I see it being at the beginning of the millennium when they go forth and look upon those that have betrayed Christ.

Where does Isaiah 66:24 indicate that it's only talking about some of the lost? Nowhere. It's talking about all who have rebelled, which describes all unbelievers.

Interestingly, in Isaiah 66:24 the following Hebrew word is used for abhorring---dra'own. That same Hebrew word is used in only one other verse---Daniel 12:2--contempt.

Right. That word describes all of the lost, not just some.

The reason I think the beginning of the millennium is meant in Isaiah 66:24 is because this serves as a future warning to those looking upon. Transgress against Me after the millennium this will be your fate as well. But I take the warning to be meaning in regards to those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem(Zechariah 14:16), yet I do not take any of these to be meaning any of the eternally saved.

Your doctrine is built upon speculation. Where are the clear scriptures that you build the foundation of your doctrine upon?

 

[Zao is life]

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Okay I see you do you believe that Daniel and those mentioned in Job will be raised when those of 1 Thess 4:15-17 are raised. (So do I).

As to Daniel 12:2 that might be problematic for Premil the way I interpret that verse. I take it to mean that all saved saints since the beginning of time that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Notice what they awake to--everlasting life.

While at the same time I do not take this part--some to shame and everlasting contempt---to be meaning a thousand years after the former are raised.

Nor do I take it to mean every lost person since the beginning of time. I only take it to mean those in the body of Christ that fall away during the past 2000 years. I basically see these being the goats in Matthew 25 and that I do not agree that the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are the same judgment.

Which then means per my view, some of the lost rise when all of the saved rise. Yet not all of the lost rise. These do not enter the millennium, they are apparently cast into the LOF at the beginning of the millennium. Isaiah 66:24 seems to support that since I see it being at the beginning of the millennium when they go forth and look upon those that have betrayed Christ.

Interestingly, in Isaiah 66:24 the following Hebrew word is used for abhorring---dra'own. That same Hebrew word is used in only one other verse---Daniel 12:2--contempt.

The reason I think the beginning of the millennium is meant in Isaiah 66:24 is because this serves as a future warning to those looking upon. Transgress against Me after the millennium this will be your fate as well. But I take the warning to be meaning in regards to those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem(Zechariah 14:16), yet I do not take any of these to be meaning any of the eternally saved.

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." also sounds like it could be another way of saying,

"he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

(IMO)

As to question 1, He is applying that to anyone that falls away, that fails to overcome. One does that in this age, meaning falling away, assuming one does that.

So you're saying that it's not possible to fall away after the resurrection.

Why is it possible to fall away before the resurrection but impossible once we are in immortal bodies, despite Satan being released after a thousand years and going out to deceive the nations?

 

[Zao is life]

I thought you used common sense when interpreting scripture? There is no common sense in believing that some of the lost will be resurrected 1,000+ years after the rest of the lost. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

Revelation 19
21 And the remnant [G3062 loipoy] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Revelation 20
5 But the rest [G3062 loipoy] of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Just because you either add to scripture or take away from scripture when you interpret scripture, does not mean that it's not written in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you're saying that it's not possible to fall away after the resurrection.

Why is it possible to fall away before the resurrection but impossible once we are in immortal bodies, despite Satan being released after a thousand years and going out to deceive the nations?

Because today is the day and now is the time of salvation, not tomorrow or after we die.

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, ”In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

People's fates are sealed at death and then they look forward to judgment based on how they lived their lives (Hebrews 9:27). Scripture never teaches that salvation is possible after being resurrected or that someone can fall away after being resurrected. Instead, it teaches that the lost will be resurrected unto "damnation" (John 5:29) and to "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 19
21 And the remnant [G3062 loipoy] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Revelation 20
5 But the rest [G3062 loipoy] of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Just because you either add to scripture or take away from scripture when you interpret scripture, does not mean that it's not written in scripture.

Where does any of that say that some of the lost are resurrected one time and then the rest another time 1,000+ years apart? Nowhere. You are the one adding to scripture.

How about you show me exactly where you think it says that? Be specific. I don't see that in those verses at all, so show me exactly how are you coming to your faulty conclusion.

While you're at it, show me how you think your erroneous conclusion can be reconciled with this passage...

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned

 

[Zao is life]

Because today is the day and now is the time of salvation, not tomorrow or after we die.

We're not talking about being saved. We're talking about falling away after being saved, wise guy.