Holiness or Hell. God's command to His people!

[John Zain]

Can you be saved and NOT be one of God's elect?

Does being one of God's elect mean you will be born-again?

If you are one of God's elect, must you be an overcomer and be fully sanctified unto holiness?

My biggest problem is this passage ...

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined …
whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

 

[justaname]

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)


"In this passage Paul is not teaching that election is a joint enterprise between God and man. Election is exclusively the work of God. It is, as we have seen, monergistic. Paul is speaking here about the outworking of our salvation that follows our election. He is specifically referring here to the process of our sanctification. Sanctification is not monergistic. It is synergistic. That is, it demands the cooperation of the regenerate believer. We are called to work to grow in grace. We are to work hard, resisting sin unto blood if necessary, pummeling our bodies if that is what it takes to subdue them.
We are called to this sober work of sanctification by a divine summons. The work is to be carried out in a spirit of fear and trembling. Our sanctification is not a casual matter. We do not approach it in a cavalier manner, saying simply, “Let go and let God.” God does not do it all for us.
Neither, however, does God leave us to work out our own salvation by ourselves, in our own strength. We are comforted by his sure promise to be working in us both to do and to will what is pleasing to him." R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1986), 158-59.


Sometimes other people are better at conveying our convictions and ideas.

This is from John Piper.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”—yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. (James 4:13–16)

When you take three categories of temptation to self-reliance — wisdom, might, and riches — they form a powerful inducement toward the ultimate form of pride, namely, atheism. The safest way to stay supreme in our own estimation is to deny anything above us.
This is why the proud preoccupy themselves with looking down on others. “A proud man is always looking down on things and people: and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.” (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)
But to preserve pride it may be simpler to proclaim that there is nothing above to look at. “In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 10:4). Ultimately, the proud must persuade themselves that there is no God.
One reason for this is that God’s reality is overwhelmingly intrusive in all the details of life. Pride cannot tolerate the intimate involvement of God in running even the ordinary affairs of life.
Pride does not like the sovereignty of God. Therefore pride does not like the existence of God, because God is sovereign. It might express this by saying, “There is no God.” Or it might express it by saying, “I am driving to Atlanta for Christmas.” James says, “Don’t be so sure.” Instead, say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and we shall get to Atlanta for Christmas.”
James’s point is that God rules over whether we get to Atlanta, and whether you live to the end of this page. “If the Lord wills, we will live…” This is extremely offensive to the self-sufficiency of pride—not even to have control over whether you get to the end of the page without having a stroke!
James says that not believing in the sovereign rights of God to manage the details of your future is arrogance.
The way to battle this arrogance is to yield to the sovereignty of God in all the details of life, and rest in his infallible promises to show himself mighty on our behalf (2 Chronicles 16:9), to pursue us with goodness and mercy every day (Psalm 23:6), to work for those who wait for him (Isaiah 64:4), and to equip us with all we need to live for his glory (Hebrews 13:21).
In other words, the remedy for pride is unwavering faith in future grace.

 

[williemac]

In reply to these passages from post #20:
"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" (James 2:20)
"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:17)
"Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)

If one looks at the context from James, one can see that he gives examples of works proving faith. They are firstly, Abraham, who was willing to offer his son on the alter, showing that he believed the promise of God that though he killed his son, God would still fulfill the promise. The second example was that of Rahab the harlot, when she was promised to be spared if she helped God's messengers, which she did, and which she was. Thes examples had nothing to do with holy or moral behavior. They simply showed that if one believes God, one will act accordingly. So what are we to believe? Contained in the book of James was an exhortation to the believeing Jews to demonstrate love.
Are we going to hear a double minded message? The message is that we have been changed, given God's holiness and righteousness, not by works but by faith. These are imputed. However, the conflict comes when we are also told that our behavior is also part of the equation in determining our fate. This is called leaven. It is two covenants mixed together.
Here is the question. Are we holy because we are behaving that way? Or are we holy because we were born that way? (the new birth) Here is the problem. The OP states holiness or hell. I have no problem with that under the condition that this refers to our new nature and not our moral behavior. Oh, I agree that our behavior ought to reflect the work that God has done in us and is doing in us.
You want a man to behave more holy? Convince him that he is holy, thanks to the new man in him. We will see the Lord because of His holines in us, not our own. You want to go back to the old motivation of law? Convince him that unless his behavior passes a certain standard, he will go to hell. You want to create confusion? Mix the two messages together. This thread could have been a wonderful exhortation if it were not for the threat of hell that it included. Is that our motivation? Do we seek to save our own lives? Do we love others in some measure just to ensure our own well being? Or does pure love have a more selfless motive?

 

[IanLC]

Who is speaking of pride? Pride is sin it was the first sin that led to all the others. Satan's pride led him to disobey God and then rebel against the LORD Almighty of Angel Armies. No man is righteous in himself but we are made righteous wholly by Christ Jesus. He sanctifies us holy and thus holiness permeates all of our being (words, actions, deeds, etc.). God is beautifuly holy and through Jesus' sacrifice the blood makes us holy as well! Holinesss is purity and purity is beautiful! Holiness is freedom and the complete form of freedom. SIn is death and bondage! God wants us to be free and to be holy. And that is His standard for us and that is what He requires! Love is an attribute of God that He wants his people to disply as well as holiness. We can love and are supposed to love everybody love is a fruit of holiness. A holy person will love others whether they are of the holy faith or not. Christ Jesus is holy, and He demands that His church is to be holy! Why rebuke me for exhortating that we should live holy? Why come against me for proclaiming the standard of God? Am I wrong for my belief that "without holiness no man shall see the Lord Jesus"?If so please instruct me and enlighten me on another way or standard! Yet I hold to and believe that holiness is God's standard for His church!
Hebrews 12:14!

 

[John Zain]

Sorry if I got off topic.
I agree totally with God's requirement of holiness, perfection, etc.
But, I was questioning a bit deeper into ...

Are all born-again believers part of the elect?
IMO, No ...
some born-agains are the wheat, etc. ... the elect who make it through
some born-agains are the tares, etc. ... who do not make it through

... and there are other considerations re: the elect,
who according to Romans 8:28-30 all become fully sanctified unto holiness.

 

[IanLC]

John, your post is not off topic. It is helping with the conversation and discussion on holiness. You are inputing to the discussion and it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Episkopos]

Can you be saved and NOT be one of God's elect?

Does being one of God's elect mean you will be born-again?

If you are one of God's elect, must you be an overcomer and be fully sanctified unto holiness?

My biggest problem is this passage ...

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined …
whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

I think this passage is largely used out of context. What the passage speaks of is akin to saying that someone who becomes president of a country first goes to grade school, then to high school then to college. But this does not mean that every one who goes to grade school will become president. Many are called but few are chosen...but the chosen were first called. Are all the called chosen????

So the passage states that those whom God predestined to rule with Him are called, justified and glorified. This does not mean that everyone whom God calls is glorified.


God foreknew those whom would walk with Him. But the call for this goes out to all of mankind. Most will be unable to walk that walk. But a few WILL!!!! God knows in advance those who will.

 

[williemac]

I think this passage is largely used out of context. What the passage speaks of is akin to saying that someone who becomes president of a country first goes to grade school, then to high school then to college. But this does not mean that every one who goes to grade school will become president. Many are called but few are chosen...but the chosen were first called. Are all the called chosen????

So the passage states that those whom God predestined to rule with Him are called, justified and glorified. This does not mean that everyone whom God calls is glorified.


God foreknew those whom would walk with Him. But the call for this goes out to all of mankind. Most will be unable to walk that walk. But a few WILL!!!! God knows in advance those who will.

I lke this reply. It is quite well thought out. There is one part of it though, that I want to say something about. And this is primarily the problem I have with the original subject line. I must question the word "few". It came to my attention some time ago while reading from John's revelation. He saw a multitude before the throne that no one could number. It happens that this was a fulfilment of God's original promise to Abraham, that his descendants would be a very very large number...as the sand of the seas.

enter to whom it may concern:

My conclusions from scripture is that though the path was very narrow at one time, Jesus solved the issue of the "few" that find it. He did not make it hard to enter life. He made it easy. Now, for those who are striving very hard to tow the line, I would imagine that they don't want to hear this.Well, that is their problem, I suppose. In the parable of those who were hired at different times of the day, the first hired were upset that those hired at the last received the same reward for doing much less work. Jesus said to that end.." Is your eye evil because I am good?"

Salvation is not about how good a man can be, but rather about how good God is. We are not told that He gives grace to the holy, but rather to the humble. Yes, of course holiness is part of the package that comes to those who partake of Jesus. But this whole premise that God is demanding His children who are born again, to walk a holy life or go to hell....well that is just plain rubbish.

The question I would have is..how holy is holy enough? I wonder if the word is even being properly defined. It is being used in this thread in the category of morality. So the question is..how moral is moral enough? We are walking about in the flesh, an earthen vessel. No one is perfectly moral all the time. Anyone can have a bad day or a bad moment. We are thus dependant upon God's mercy and grace at all times. It's not about me. I don't appreciate the attempts to make it about me or us. And I feel that way because I don't think God appreciates it either. My rant for the day. Blessings to you, Howie

 

[John Zain]

I think this passage (Romans 8:28-30) is largely used out of context. What the passage speaks of is akin to saying that someone who becomes president of a country first goes to grade school, then to high school then to college.
But this does not mean that every one who goes to grade school will become president.
Many are called but few are chosen...but the chosen were first called. Are all the called chosen????
So the passage states that those whom God predestined to rule with Him are called, justified and glorified. This does not mean that everyone whom God calls is glorified. God foreknew those whom would walk with Him. But the call for this goes out to all of mankind. Most will be unable to walk that walk. But a few WILL!!!! God knows in advance those who will.

Yes, I agree with most of your points.
But, the many who are called are chosen for what?
I sat under a pastor of pastors once who said that Jesus meant "chosen for ministry".
IMO, the Romans 8 passage is clearer and more acceptable.
However, it must fit in with the rest of Scripture, so I have a theory:
We have … born-again (elect) wheat …and… born-again (non-elect) tares,
both growing and mixing together, basically indistinguishable from one another.
More on this later ...

The question I would have is..how holy is holy enough?

My understanding is ...
we are judged on how co-operative we are with the Holy Spirit as He tries to sanctify us.
This may sound off-base ... talking about God "trying" to do something.
But, don't forget that He gave us free will, and He rarely infringes on that.
Satan + free-will man = a powerful combo to fight against God's perfect will for the human race

 

[Rex]

My conclusions from scripture is that though the path was very narrow at one time, Jesus solved the issue of the "few" that find it. He did not make it hard to enter life. He made it easy. Now, for those who are striving very hard to tow the line, I would imagine that they don't want to hear this.Well, that is their problem, I suppose. In the parable of those who were hired at different times of the day, the first hired were upset that those hired at the last received the same reward for doing much less work. Jesus said to that end.." Is your eye evil because I am good?"

And If it were narrow at what time just what changed to make it easily accessible? I don't believe that simply confessing with your mouth in a repentance prayer is the final word on being born again. My personal opinion is that many in the church today are not indwelt with the HS. They begin but simply never follow threw, I don't mean to struggle with sin but your actions toward others as the verse in Matthew is preceded by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

My observation is many base their lives and actions exactly like the world does, that is, when was the last time you stopped when a car was pulled over on the highway? Do you make your decisions based on what is best for you or on others as well? I have watch "Christians" that don't even muster that thought with-in there own family's let alone with someone they don't know. Many years ago I got stranded in the middle of Kansas, I sat on a highway for three days reading my bible and listening to the radio. There was a church about a block away I used the rest room. Nobody even stopped to ask how far I needed a ride, this is an average town and a two lane highway. On the third day the sheriff stopped and said people were concerned and where was I headed. I had a regular hair cut ect, We talked for a while then he went to his car for quite a long time. He returned and told me to get in his car he drove me to the county line and meet the sheriff from the next county that took me to a church that bought me a short bus ticket to my destination.

The point of my story is I was in the bible belt and not one person would even talk to me but instead called and asked the sheriff to find a solution. After I first talked with him he got on the radio and made all the arrangements. I sometime think of that experience when I think of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." People would just drive by and stare at me like I was from a different planet or something. For three days I walked back and forth to that church using the bathroom and never seen anyone there, but the doors were open.

 

[John Zain]

Rex, that was some experience you had!

It appears you agree that ...
it is possible for a born-again Christian to NOT co-operate with being sanctified.
That being the case, I suggest that there are 3 types of people in the churches
(along with the curious, the seekers, etc.):

(1) the converted ... believe the gospel in their minds, but not in their hearts
(2) the born-again ... have been given the Holy Spirit in their hearts, but fail to be sanctified
(3) the elect ... really willing to pay the price to be sanctified unto holiness by the Holy Spirit

Bottom line ... it is possible to be born-again, but not part of the elect.

 

[williemac]

williemac, on 19 Jan 2013 - 08:16, said:
The question I would have is..how holy is holy enough?

John Zain said: My understanding is ...

we are judged on how co-operative we are with the Holy Spirit as He tries to sanctify us.
This may sound off-base ... talking about God "trying" to do something.
But, don't forget that He gave us free will, and He rarely infringes on that.
My reply:
I agree that He rarely infringes on our free will. But in saying that God judges us on how co-operative we are with the Holy Spirit, are you implying that this judgmnent leads to disqualification of those who fail to cooperate enough? Don't forget, I was replying to the o.p. suggestion that hell is waiting for christians who are not holy enough. So in regards to that, I asked how holy would be holy enough? I don't think you answered the question. You merely gave criteria on which we are judged by God. So I will ask, if you are insinuating that we could be cast out if we do not cooperate enough, then how much cooperation is enough? Can it be measured to an exact amount so that we can have assurance? Or is this just a guess on our part?

Rex said...And If it were narrow at what time just what changed to make it easily accessible? I don't believe that simply confessing with your mouth in a repentance prayer is the final word on being born again. My personal opinion is that many in the church today are not indwelt with the HS. They begin but simply never follow threw, I don't mean to struggle with sin but your actions toward others as the verse in Matthew is preceded by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
My reply:
What changed? The cross. If you recall John 3:16, this is rather straight foreward language. As well, It matters not what you believe about confessing. The scripture has the final say. Rom.10:9,10 is rather contrary to your opinion. Again, straight foreward language. As far as your observation about many in the church, I have to say that I do not personally go about spying on the lives of individuals to the degree that I can say for sure whether their lives have genuinely been touched by Christ and a change has thus occured. To know that in any individual case, one would need to see what they were like previously, and somehow see what they would be like had they not come to Christ. Only God can see these things.
There are two or more sides to every story. Many who come aboard are damaged souls, having seen any number of obsitcles such as verbal, mental, or physical abuse, brainwashing, sickness, addiction, lack of education, inaccurate education or knowledge, and other troubling things. I come from a very good family by usual standards. Who am I to compare myself to those less advantaged? Unless I have totally missed the boat here, I see no one becoming instantly perfect in this life when they arrive at God's doorstep.
When we see things such as the experience described on the roadside, are we any less cruel to form instant condemning conclusions to those who may not even have been aware of the situation?

When do we start cutting each other some slack? No one sees the big picture. Not like God.
But I maintain my conclusion that God made life easy to attain. He otherwise could not have made the promise to Abraham that though He is dealing with man's free will, He can assure us that His family will be numbered as the sand of the sea. I will repeat Jesus' words to whom it may concern: ..."Is your eye evil because I am good?" (Math.20:15)

 

[John Zain]

williemac, on 19 Jan 2013 - 08:16, said:
Zain: we are judged on how co-operative we are with the Holy Spirit as He tries to sanctify us.
This may sound off-base ... talking about God "trying" to do something.
But, don't forget that He gave us free will, and He rarely infringes on that.

My reply: I agree that He rarely infringes on our free will. But in saying that God judges us on how co-operative we are with the Holy Spirit, are you implying that this judgmnent leads to disqualification of those who fail to cooperate enough? Don't forget, I was replying to the o.p. suggestion that hell is waiting for christians who are not holy enough. So in regards to that, I asked how holy would be holy enough? I don't think you answered the question. You merely gave criteria on which we are judged by God. So I will ask, if you are insinuating that we could be cast out if we do not cooperate enough, then how much cooperation is enough? Can it be measured to an exact amount so that we can have assurance? Or is this just a guess on our part?

God has given us many warnings, man does his thing, and the judgment is in God's hands!

Are the warnings really as serious as they seem?
Are they given just to spur His elect on to holiness?
Are they given just to spur His elect on to gaining better rewards?

Or are they given to warn of disqualification?
“Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord …” (Hebrews 12:14)
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith … unless you are disqualified.” (1 Cor 13:5)
“… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling …” (Philippians 2:12)

 

[IanLC]

I believe God alone knows whom His elect are. Yet for us who have been saved we are apart of the elect of God saved by the blood of Jesus. We are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live effective and holy Christian lives that witnesses for Christ in speech, action, word and deed! One who has a Christ like and saved heart will display holiness in all that He does.

 

[williemac]

God has given us many warnings, man does his thing, and the judgment is in God's hands!

Are the warnings really as serious as they seem?
Are they given just to spur His elect on to holiness?
Are they given just to spur His elect on to gaining better rewards?

Or are they given to warn of disqualification?
“Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord …” (Hebrews 12:14)
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith … unless you are disqualified.” (1 Cor 13:5)
“… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling …” (Philippians 2:12)

As for Heb.12:14, there is a context.In vs.7, he talks of chastening from God. He in no way in vs. 14 was insinuating that the christian is without any holiness and therefore must create his own holiness. Neither was there a warning, but merely a statement of fact. Without holiness, no man will see the Lord. However, we do have His holiness in us. We should already know this. We are merely exhorted to walk in it (Eph.4:24). We will see the Lord because of this holiness that dwells in our new man. How well a person walks in that holiness in no way dictates whether he actually has any or not, or whether he has 'enough' in order to see God. We should know this.

As well, your quote from 2Cor.13:5 is missing the part in the middle of the sentence. Why? In it, Paul asks.."do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? " And the very next verse says..." But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified".
What he meant was that if Christ is not in you then you are disqualified. This is the test. This is the examination of the faith.: Christ in you, the hope of Glory. This was not a warning in any sense of the word. He was giving them a way to reassure themselves.

Finally, Phil.2:12..work OUT you salvation. Not work "FOR" your salvation. And the very next part.." for it is God who works in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure". Do we imagine that God can fail?

My advice to you is to examine these passages in their context to understand the author's message rather than pulling out a verse here and there to put your own words into the author's mouth. This is not a game of paper covers rock, etc. If one thing is sure in scripture, there is not going to be another thing in scripture to be used to contradict it. One sure thing is that He has given us His Spirit as a garuntee of our inheritance. That is a strong word, no? As well, He has perfected forever (PAST TENSE) those who are being sanctified (Heb.10:14).
We are saved by grace. Life is a free gift (Rom.5:15-18). How can we imagine that after this eternal life is given through faith, we must earn the right to keep it through our works? This is double talk. It is contradiction. Life is either free or it is not. If we must earn it after we received it, then it was never free. It would simply be the equivalent to "buy now, and pay later". This would be a deferred salvation by works. No such thing.

 

[IanLC]

So you are saying we are not required to live holy? And that holiness is of no value? Sinful lifestyle is okay since we are justified by faith? Please explain to me for I do not understand your reasoning.

 

[John Zain]

He has perfected forever (PAST TENSE) those who are being sanctified (Heb.10:14).
We are saved by grace. Life is a free gift (Rom.5:15-18).
... No such thing.

But who has been perfected forever?
But who are saved by grace?
But who gets the free gift?
You say those who simply have believed! ... this is OSAS talking.
No such thing.

Your view makes all of the many warnings to the churches seem ridiculous.

 

[justaname]

I like to think OSAS stands for Only Saved Are Saved

 

[John Zain]

I like to think OSAS stands for Only Saved Are Saved

EOSAS is much better ... Elect-Only Saved Always Saved.

But, who exactly are the elect?
And, who exactly in da choiches were all of the dire warnings addressed to?

 

[IanLC]

Bitter and sweet can not come out of the same fountain. You must live holy or worldly. There is no in between or lukewarmness. Jesus' blood has justified us and we are sealed with the Holy Ghost and we have the Holy Writ there is no excuse to walk in sin and darkness for God has given us two powerful helpers to aid us in the Christian walk. They are as I have stated the Holy Ghost and the Holy Writ!