Holy Spirit......Christians ?

[101G]

What is the gift of tongues? What happens when heard by people of different languages? Is it necessary if people all speak the same language?

well I'll speak against that. just a month ago I was in Miami Fla and in certain part of the city if you didn't some Spanish you wouldn't be served. thank God a few word got me by. but to hold a dialogue, out of the question.

 

[amadeus]

What is the gift of tongues? What happens when heard by people of different languages? Is it necessary if people all speak the same language?

We may see a literal explanation and/or a spiritual one. I will briefly describe my understanding:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" I Cor 12:8-10

When I did a study on this a number of years ago I encountered three kinds of tongues in scripture. Others may have come up with something different

1) First tongue = speaking in someone's else's language which you don't know, or it could them understanding you speaking in your own language even though they don't understand it.

2) Second tongue = a prayer language between us and God.

3) Third tongue = a message given in an unknown tongue for the people present to which there must always be someone who interprets of the message in the common language of the people present.

My own is the prayer language between me and God as per number 2. My wife had both given messages in unknown tongues and given interpretations of such message into the common language of those present.

Whether or not such a gift is necessary is not my call, but God's. God is the only One who can decide whether something is necessary or not. That He uses it there is no doubt in my mind because He has used it in me therefore for me it is necessary. I cannot speak for other outside of my experience or outside of what God has revealed to me.

One thing that I look at when attempting to explain it to someone who has not had a "tongues" experience are the parables of Jesus. Jesus spoke in parables and to those to whom it was given He also provided an interpretation of the parables.

 

[Helen]

A spiritual gift is a spiritual gift...why would anyone say 'no thank you' to the Lord? When I have no idea what a person's needs are, or how to help someone in any given situation...I pray in tongues for them, God has all the answers that they need...my English language at that point is of no spiritual good, because I don't have God's wisdom on the matter. So I let Him direct my tongue.

 

[twinc]

People are confused to the extent they don't understand God's will for them so they walk according to their own will. If this is due to anything within believers it is their quenching of the Holy Spirit. Consider these words spoken by Jesus:

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children." Matt 11:18-19

Jesus was not confused by the two seeming opposite thoughts about himself and John the Baptist. The difficulty was not in Jesus or in the Baptist, but rather in those who had sought unsuccessfully to diminish them both.

You should spend more time in prayer and in seeking God's help in dealing with what you do not know or understand rather than in continuing to try to blindly tear down other people. I know you have problems with the Catholic Church, which is supposedly your church, but even they are not officially against tongue talkers today. A lot of Catholics do speak in tongues.

alas and sadly a lot of Catholics do and say and accept a lot of silly stuff - a lot did and do make good Protestants

 

[twinc]

A spiritual gift is a spiritual gift...why would anyone say 'no thank you' to the Lord? When I have no idea what a person's needs are, or how to help someone in any given situation...I pray in tongues for them, God has all the answers that they need...my English language at that point is of no spiritual good, because I don't have God's wisdom on the matter. So I let Him direct my tongue.

it is not a spiritual gift at all - it is just an insult to the Holy Spirit - it is uncontrolled dangerous inflated egotism correctly described at James 3:6-12 - twinc

 

[Helen]

it is not a spiritual gift at all - it is just an insult to the Holy Spirit - it is uncontrolled dangerous inflated egotism correctly described at James 3:6-12 - twinc

Talk about the pt calling the kettle back!! I just replied to your other thread where you wrote to me saying that what you seem to write things which some find unacceptable....and here YOU are being rude about something 'in God' that I treasure.

Why do you talk about things that you know nothing about.
This must be a bee in your bonnet...because over the years it is the same old drum that you beat. What are you trying to achieve?
1 Cor 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. >>>>>
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues"

You are treading on dangerous ground Jim...it is YOU are the one insulting the Holy Spirit...not me!! ✟

 

[EndTimeWine]

We may see a literal explanation and/or a spiritual one. I will briefly describe my understanding:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" I Cor 12:8-10

When I did a study on this a number of years ago I encountered three kinds of tongues in scripture. Others may have come up with something different

1) First tongue = speaking in someone's else's language which you don't know, or it could them understanding you speaking in your own language even though they don't understand it.

2) Second tongue = a prayer language between us and God.

3) Third tongue = a message given in an unknown tongue for the people present to which there must always be someone who interprets of the message in the common language of the people present.

My own is the prayer language between me and God as per number 2. My wife had both given messages in unknown tongues and given interpretations of such message into the common language of those present.

Whether or not such a gift is necessary is not my call, but God's. God is the only One who can decide whether some is necessary or not. That He uses it there is no doubt in my mind because He has used it in me therefore for me it is necessary. I cannot speak for other outside of my experience or outside of what God has revealed to me.

One thing that I look at when attempting to explain it to someone who has not had a "tongues" experience are the parables of Jesus. Jesus spoke in parables and to those to whom it was given He also provided an interpretation of the parables.

Hmmm? See, I thought the gift of tongues was a gift to communicate to people in one setting who are of diverse languages. And it is a gift of opening the listeners minds to here what's spoken in their own language each according to his own understanding. It is purely spiritual and needs no interpretation. I thought in ACTS 2:1-13, when the apostles were anointed at Pentecost it was a necessary gift because in Jerusalem their were many from different regions and each obviously had their own language. In this account, the people marveled in how each was hearing them in their own language. Yet, one language was spoken. The Holy Spirit was speaker and interpreter. There was nothing unknown as to what was being said by the apostles. I believe the gift is necessary for this purpose=bringing to the faith people of different cultures and languages, for one purpose Salvation.

In my spiritual journey I attended Charismatic services of Evangelical and Catholic origins. And they claimed to be speaking in tongues. It sounded like a bunch of gibberish to me. When I questioned this, I was told I was not a believer, therefore could not hear or rather understand what the Holy Spirit was saying. I left and pondered these words and it has come upon my heart to understand Acts2:1-13. The Holy Spirit needs NO interpreter. And the gift of tongues were spoken to none believers in order to reap believers. I was a believer who was NOT duped by their gibberish no one in those parishes understood what was said. But went along like nit wits buying their happy horse poop.

Then the baskets went around and everyone put their money in after the laying on of the hands. Which everyone was rejoicing about for the evening , but the next day were back in the same place they started. One women said, " It is because of my lack of faith that my infirmity has come back." She proceeded to go to confession to the priest who said if no one could understand the Holy Spirit and the words spoken in tongues they were in SIN and should go to confession. Give me a break!

The gift of tongues is given and spoken by believers to none believers who could not understand your native tongue, therefore the spiritual tongue is spoken , Heavens language. Which removes the obstacles and barriers to repentance and faith, bringing about conversion through Yeshua the Christ.
When Paul was talking about the gift of tongues he was speaking as to what the apostles received and what we too can. This is a spiritual supernatural language and miracle, for all , hear in their own tongue. The gift to interpret tongues is not the same gift, for the Holy Spirit's gift of speaking in tongues needs NO interpreter. The second part of tongues is the gift of interpretation of tongues.This is, being able to understand and interpret different cultures languages without having to learn them, this knowledge is imparted by the Holy Spirit. This is necessary to learn about cultures and there customs and spiritual beliefs and writings. The apostles were sent to many different countries and had to understand the languages, and interpret their languages to others. This is the TRUE MEANING of the second part of the spiritual gift of TONGUES. Interpretation of tongues= LANGUAGES. If the apostles spoke Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek only as to their native tongue they would through the second part of the GIFT of TONGUES understand an Indian of India, an Asian of China or Japan ex...! They could understand all other languages= INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES. God Bless!

 

[101G]

In my spiritual journey I attended Charismatic services of Evangelical and Catholic origins. And they claimed to be speaking in tongues. It sounded like a bunch of gibberish to me. When I questioned this, I was told I was not a believer, therefore could not hear or rather understand what the Holy Spirit was saying. I left and pondered these words and it has come upon my heart to understand Acts2:1-13. The Holy Spirit needs NO interpreter. And the gift of tongues were spoken to none believers in order to reap believers. I was a believer who was NOT duped by their gibberish no one in those parishes understood what was said. But went along like nit wits buying their happy horse poop.

1 Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:15 "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified".

not only for believer, but the UNLEARNED.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God".

 

[amadeus]

Hmmm? See, I thought the gift of tongues was a gift to communicate to people in one setting who are of diverse languages. And it is a gift of opening the listeners minds to here what's spoken in their own language each according to his own understanding. It is purely spiritual and needs no interpretation. I thought in ACTS 2:1-13, when the apostles were anointed at Pentecost it was a necessary gift because in Jerusalem their were many from different regions and each obviously had their own language. In this account, the people marveled in how each was hearing them in their own language. Yet, one language was spoken. The Holy Spirit was speaker and interpreter. There was nothing unknown as to what was being said by the apostles. I believe the gift is necessary for this purpose=bringing to the faith people of different cultures and languages, for one purpose Salvation.

It is all of that and more. James helps us also to understand:

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10

It "ought not so to be", but so often it is. So long as our carnal mind works and our carnal tongue, they will seek to speak out those curses... and therefore when we are quenching the Holy Spirit in us they can be successful.

In my spiritual journey I attended Charismatic services of Evangelical and Catholic origins. And they claimed to be speaking in tongues. It sounded like a bunch of gibberish to me. When I questioned this, I was told I was not a believer, therefore could not hear or rather understand what the Holy Spirit was saying. I left and pondered these words and it has come upon my heart to understand Acts2:1-13. The Holy Spirit needs NO interpreter. And the gift of tongues were spoken to none believers in order to reap believers. I was a believer who was NOT duped by their gibberish no one in those parishes understood what was said. But went along like nit wits buying their happy horse poop.

Throughout the scripture[both OT and NT] there are types and shadows. Of course, they have had and have their purposes, but the real things of God are what we are seeking, or at least should be seeking. As we move from seeing through a glass darkly toward seeing face to face then...

"... but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. I Cor 13:8

Yes, the types and shadows a tongues and of parables will be gone for they will no longer be necessary. We will then no longer see "men as trees walking" but rather "clearly".

You may be correct to question and doubt but casting something away while your vision remains as "through a glass darkly" could be a dangerous thing to do. They will cease in God's time rather than in yours or mine.

There is without a doubt quite a bit of babble among tongue talkers which you call "gibberish", but often it is simply baby talk as is the babble of carnal babies without regard to the carnal language of their parents. Newborns will speak that way. If the spiritual newborn never moves from babbling to speaking a language, there is a problem as there would be with a carnal child who moves up to 10 and 15 and greater ages without ever learning to communicate.

Then the baskets went around and everyone put their money in after the laying on of the hands. Which everyone was rejoicing about for the evening , but the next day were back in the same place they started. One women said, " It is because of my lack of faith that my infirmity has come back." She proceeded to go to confession to the priest who said if no one could understand the Holy Spirit and the words spoken in tongues they were in SIN and should go to confession. Give me a break!

And so based on the idle words of this person and that one, you have rejected the whole thing without thoroughly checking with the scriptures and more importantly with God?

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:36

Of course none of your words are ever idle.

The gift of tongues is given and spoken by believers to none believers who could not understand your native tongue, therefore the spiritual tongue is spoken , Heavens language. Which removes the obstacles and barriers to repentance and faith, bringing about conversion through Yeshua the Christ.

Your above explanation would be included in God's purpose, but why is that you seemingly presume that there is nothing you do not understand? I believe that I understand some things about the things of God, but I fall very short in very many things. He is simply too great to put into a box.

When Paul was talking about the gift of tongues he was speaking as to what the apostles received and what we too can. This is a spiritual supernatural language and miracle, for all , hear in their own tongue. The gift to interpret tongues is not the same gift, for the Holy Spirit's gift of speaking in tongues needs NO interpreter. The second part of tongues is the gift of interpretation of tongues.This is, being able to understand and interpret different cultures languages without having to learn them, this knowledge is imparted by the Holy Spirit. This is necessary to learn about cultures and there customs and spiritual beliefs and writings. The apostles were sent to many different countries and had to understand the languages, and interpret their languages to others. This is the TRUE MEANING of the second part of the spiritual gift of TONGUES. Interpretation of tongues= LANGUAGES. If the apostles spoke Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek only as to their native tongue they would through the second part of the GIFT of TONGUES understand an Indian of India, an Asian of China or Japan ex...! They could understand all other languages= INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES. God Bless!

I am glad that you understand it all so well. Thank you for your explanations.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[EndTimeWine]

1 Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:15 "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified".

not only for believer, but the UNLEARNED.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God".

It is all of that and more. James helps us also to understand:

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10

It "ought not so to be", but so often it is. So long as our carnal mind works and our carnal tongue, they will seek to speak out those curses... and therefore when we are quenching the Holy Spirit in us they can be successful.




Throughout the scripture[both OT and NT] there are types and shadows. Of course, they have had and have their purposes, but the real things of God are what we are seeking, or at least should be seeking. As we move from seeing through a glass darkly toward seeing face to face then...

"... but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. I Cor 13:8

Yes, the types and shadows a tongues and of parables will be gone for they will no longer be necessary. We will then no longer see "men as trees walking" but rather "clearly".

You may be correct to question and doubt but casting something away while your vision remains as "through a glass darkly" could be a dangerous thing to do. They will cease in God's time rather than in yours or mine.

There is without a doubt quite a bit of babble among tongue talkers which you call "gibberish", but often it is simply baby talk as is the babble of carnal babies without regard to the carnal language of their parents. Newborns will speak that way. If the spiritual newborn never moves from babbling to speaking a language, there is a problem as there would be with a carnal child who moves up to 10 and 15 and greater ages without ever learning to communicate.



And so based on the idle words of this person and that one, you have rejected the whole thing without thoroughly checking with the scriptures and more importantly with God?

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:36

Of course none of your words are ever idle.



Your above explanation would be included in God's purpose, but why is that you seemingly presume that there is nothing you do not understand? I believe that I understand some things about the things of God, but I fall very short in very many things. He is simply too great to put into a box.



I am glad that you understand it all so well. Thank you for your explanations.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

Thank you for adding more to what I was saying, you hit on more of the gifts of tongues. God Bless and thank you again.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for adding more to what I was saying, you hit on more of the gifts of tongues. God Bless and thank you again.

You are quite welcome!
Give God the glory!

 

[twinc]

You are quite welcome!
Give God the glory!

But then it would depend whether you prefer what Amadeus or others have to say as against what the likes of John F MacArthur has to say via 'Strange Fire' and 'Charismatic Chaos' etc - twinc

 

[101G]

But then it would depend whether you prefer what Amadeus or others have to say as against what the likes of John F MacArthur has to say via 'Strange Fire' and 'Charismatic Chaos' etc - twinc

I have study some of John F MacArthur material and it came up short. especially the one on Christ return.

 

[EndTimeWine]

But then it would depend whether you prefer what Amadeus or others have to say as against what the likes of John F MacArthur has to say via 'Strange Fire' and 'Charismatic Chaos' etc - twinc

They respectfully gave scriptural verses. I am not interested in much other outside of that. As long as we found common ground on something that is a good thing. I do not agree with much, others espouse to. I am not into the Charismatic movement, I think they are nutty for the most part and do NOT truly have the gift of tongues from my experience in testing these movements. Knowledge is power. Speaking or praying to God in an unknown tongue that even the one praying can not understand is not fruitful. Let one have both utterance and knowledge. I test all spirits I reject the whole movement actually, I do believe some are well intended however, that does not make right. As I said, I agree with the scriptural verses which further elaborate on my point not the Charismatic movement. God Bless!

 

[101G]

They respectful gave scriptural verses. I am not interested in much other outside of that. As long as we found common ground on something that is a good thing. I do not agree with much, others espouse to. I am not into the Charismatic movement, I think they are nutty for the most part and do NOT truly have the gift of tongues from my experience in testing these movements. Knowledge is power. Speaking or praying to God in an unknown tongue that even the one praying can not understand is not fruitful. Let one have both utterance and knowledge. I test all spirits I reject the whole movement actually, I do believe some are well intended however, that does not make right. As I said, I agree with the scriptural verses which further elaborate on my point not the Charismatic movement. God Bless!

agreed, I went to one of these so called Charismatic movement congregation many years ago and got a shock of my life. there was an annual occasion and many people from other demonstration was in attendance. after the sermon by the local pastor was given he started speaking in an unknown tongues. I said it was unknown, because the Pastor himself afterward said, and I quote, "I don't know what I just said". a few others and myself looked at each other in shock, and disbelief. I concluded, this is just me, I concluded the pastor was trying to impress the visitors who had attended. well it didn't impress me at all. and I never visited again even if invited.

I just believe God is not the author of confusion. if someone is genuine, God will provide an interpreter so that no one is left in the dark. that was a dark day for me. but not ever day is dark, only some.

peace in Christ JESUS

 

[amadeus]

What can I add or what can I argue? God is still in business but so is the adversary. I have listened to many preachers and teachers over the years and as led, I believe, by the Holy Spirit to do so, I taken on some of their message and some NOT. I continue to read scripture and to pray to God for direction and understanding as well as to be careful not to reject someone or their message without understanding why. Progress has been slow, but again, I believe that there has been progress toward God. I have changed or been changed or a number of my beliefs over the years. This is as it should be in growth. We are to be growing closer to God, are we not?

The important thing should never be our doctrines held or rituals practiced or arguments won, but as the apostle Paul put it: charity or love as per I Cor 13:4-7.

This is the main problem that I see in the discussions on forums such as these, the frequent lack of charity. I pray that God keep me and all of us from traveling in that same pit.

 

[bbyrd009]

What is the gift of tongues? What happens when heard by people of different languages? Is it necessary if people all speak the same language?

is it possible to be misunderstood by someone who speaks the same language? may have come out already though

 

[bbyrd009]

I thought in ACTS 2:1-13, when the apostles were anointed at Pentecost it was a necessary gift because in Jerusalem their were many from different regions and each obviously had their own language. In this account, the people marveled in how each was hearing them in their own language. Yet, one language was spoken.

imo i have come to believe that this is a literary construction, made to make a profoundly spiritual point

In my spiritual journey I attended Charismatic services of Evangelical and Catholic origins. And they claimed to be speaking in tongues. It sounded like a bunch of gibberish to me.

to Paul too, imo; @ "gurgling and cooing like a baby."

When Paul was talking about the gift of tongues he was speaking as to what the apostles received and what we too can. This is a spiritual supernatural language and miracle, for all , hear in their own tongue.

imo the first is easily accomplished, once the second has been translated into the mundane, which is easily accomplished once one is open to another perspective on the matter. People are recognized, even in the world, as being gifted/not gifted at communication. for instance.

 

[twinc]

Talk about the pt calling the kettle back!! I just replied to your other thread where you wrote to me saying that what you seem to write things which some find unacceptable....and here YOU are being rude about something 'in God' that I treasure.

Why do you talk about things that you know nothing about.
This must be a bee in your bonnet...because over the years it is the same old drum that you beat. What are you trying to achieve?
1 Cor 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. >>>>>
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues"

You are treading on dangerous ground Jim...it is YOU are the one insulting the Holy Spirit...not me!! ✟

methinks it is you are in deadly danger - why not just google [strange fire conference 2017] by John MacArthur - twinc

 

[amadeus]

@twinc Again I have done you bidding to the extent of googling and obtaining some introductory words.

Taken from: John MacArthur’s strange Fire Conferencence/

Well known California pastor John MacArthur recently hosted a large conference evaluating the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement (you can listen to the messages here, http://www.tmstrangefire.org). The conference coincides with the release of a new book, with the same title. I have not read the book yet but I have listened to a good number of the conference messages (from a variety of preachers). Pastor Rex and I have been discussing them. I hope to listen to the rest also in order to gain a full understanding of just what the conference was saying.

This conference continued MacArthur’s long standing opposition to the charismatic movement. Previously he has also published two books on the subject, one called “Charismatic Chaos” which I read about twenty years ago and another called “The Charismatics” which I read I believe back in the 1970’s. The stakes in this matter are high, one blogger summarized it this way:

“Here’s the fact of the matter – the continualist who believes MacArthur is wrong and the cessationist who believes MacArthur is right are closer to each other than the person who says this debate doesn’t matter or cannot be decided. Why? Because both the committed continualist and the committed cessationist believe God has revealed Himself on this issue and that we are accountable to live according to God’s revealed truth.

If MacArthur is wrong, he is in the frightening position of attributing the work of the Spirit to satanic deception. If MacArthur is right, charismatics should repent of false belief and practice.”