Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[St. SteVen]

none of us are free of sin. How does that work? I'm a sinner, but I am better than other sinners, somehow less sinful?

Humankind wants to judge sins on a curve. God judges sin PASS/FAIL, and we all FAIL.

That's "sins" plural and "sin" singular.

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[BarneyFife]

Or people recognize that sexual orientation is inborn and homosexuality is a natural variation like blue eyes or being left handed.

and people are rejecting the claim that something that is inborn and natural and ultimately an expression of love is not evil even if some try to insist that it is.

That people are convinced of these claims that perversion is an expression of divinely-devised love (like blue eyes?) there can be no doubt.

You keep claiming that your position is not itself hateful but right here you put your hate on full display.

No, I think we'll see that what's actually happening is that your twisted magnifications of what I'm actually saying are in rare form.

"ill effects" You are saying LGBT people are sick.

The term "ill effects" as I have used it here actually has nothing whatsoever to do with sickness.

First this serves to make them less human, they aren't a person they are a disease, something to fear.

Being sick doesn't make a person less human. That's absurd and very unkind. And it certainly doesn't make someone synonymous with whatever disease they may or may not have.

And as sick people good healthy people have an obligation to "cure" them through what ever means necessary.

And as sick people good healthy people have an obligation to "cure" them through what ever means necessary. they fact that they don't want to be "cured" just shows how sick they are and how they need to be isolated form good 'healthy' people for safety sake. In living memory that "cure" involved things like repeated uses of elector convulsive therapy. Gay people were strapped down and had bolts of electricity shot into their brains again and again and again until there literally was no one left. But since they no longer acted gay (or did much of anything) they were "cured"!! then there were the untold number of LGBT people who had doctors strap them down and hammer iron spikes into their skull. sure it would likely kill them but they sure weren't homosexual anymore.

I can't recall ever having said or believed anything like this. It's thoroughly disgusting to me.

When I read this rant, it reminds me of a scene I've witnessed many times. The place is the supermarket. A 3-year-old is standing up in a shopping cart screaming bloody murder because he can't have what he wants right now.

Tantrums aren't going to trigger me into behaving like the person you'd like me to appear to be. Sorry.

"these capitulations of desire for immediate gratification" I Homosexual are incapable of love, they only experience lust just like animals.

I'm talking about actions and you're simply re-stating it to sound like I'm literally declaring my own supposed hatred for the actors. It's right here for everyone to see. You're not fooling anyone but yourself, TM.

As sub human sex machines

Why do you keep referring to these poor souls for whom Christ died in such awful terms?

they need to be stopped by good people who can actually experience love.

I'm not interested in stopping anything. I'm just a seed sower.

Reforms?

A change toward being more truthful in education, for starters?

Deny all you like but what you just wrote is pure bigotry.

Project all the Westboro Baptist junk religiosophy onto me that you like but I'm still not that guy.

Maybe because of things like what you posted right here.

I've got another theory but it would surely trigger you far too much to introduce into all of this mess.

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[BarneyFife]

I think the pearl clutching over homosexuality is a tempest in a tea cup. Where's the diatribes against greed? Oh wait, we love our comfort too much for that. Let's see Christians band together against indifference and hatred in all its demonic forms. Pfft. Let's face it, homosexuals are an easy target. They're just another group of outcasts, sinners who we can condemn in our righteousness. And yet, none of us are free of sin. How does that work? I'm a sinner, but I am better than other sinners, somehow less sinful?

Here's the problem in a nutshell. Certain Christians have made homosexuality the primary target of their judgments while turning a blind eye to all kinds of wickedness that thrive all around them so that it appears to the observer that the hostility against homosexuality is simply prejudice disguised as a concern for righteousness. Let's see Christians band together to outlaw greed. We know greed is a sin, it's rampant and out in the open. The rich are not in the closet out of fear of persecution; that was the gays. Christians kick homosexuals while they're down and pat the rich on the back. That's not righteous.

Christ didn't let down the side on morality just because the religious zealots that ran the synagogues of His day were heartless. In fact, He doubled down on it in the Sermon On The Mount.

This thread isn't about greed. If you'd like to start one I'd be obliged if you tagged me. I don't have time to start and monitor one myself. It's about time I took a break from this topic for a few days, anyway.

Welcome to the forum, by the way!

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[St. SteVen]

That people are convinced of these claims that perversion is an expression of divinely-devised love (like blue eyes?) there can be no doubt.

I'm trying to separate a couple things here in my own mind.
1) The reality that people can be born with leanings one way or another,
and even testosterone and estrogen levels in males and females can vary as well.
2) It's not actually a sin until fornication and adultery enter the picture.

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[St. SteVen]

TinMan said:
"ill effects" You are saying LGBT people are sick.

The term "ill effects" as I have used it here actually has nothing whatsoever to do with sickness.

Right. I didn't take it that way. I was surprised at the comment.

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[St. SteVen]

Project all the Westboro Baptist junk religiosophy onto me that you like but I'm still not that guy.

You misspelled "gay". - LOL
(sorry, another great set-up)

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[St. SteVen]

Welcome to the forum, by the way!

LOL
You should probably go by the Sep 4, 2019 start date rather than the measly 74 posts made.
But... friendly is good. No worries.

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[St. SteVen]

This thread isn't about greed.

It is comparatively.
Christians are activating to put a stop to homosexuality but doing nothing about greed.
I think that's the point. (which you already understand, I think)

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[BarneyFife]

I'm trying to separate a couple things here in my own mind.

Don't be silly. You're justbeing friendly and coy.

(And it's both refreshing and appreciated.)

1) The reality that people can be born with leanings one way or another,
and even testosterone and estrogen levels in males and females can vary as well.

I've never seen any reputable, conclusive studies showing that babies are born with sexual inclinations of any kind.

Testosterone and estrogen levels are related to all kinds of things, except the tendency toward same-sexual attraction.

2) It's not actually a sin until fornication and adultery enter the picture.

Which first happens in the mind, according to Christ.



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[BarneyFife]

LOL
You should probably go by the Sep 4, 2019 start date rather than the measly 74 posts made.
But... friendly is good. No worries.

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Actually, I went by post history. They're all from this year.

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[BarneyFife]

You misspelled "gay". - LOL
(sorry, another great set-up)

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I'll have you know I'm not as gay as people say I am, thank you very much.

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[Chadrho]

Christ didn't let down the side on morality just because the religious zealots that ran the synagogues of His day were heartless. In fact, He doubled down on it in the Sermon On The Mount.

This thread isn't about greed. If you'd like to start one I'd be obliged if you tagged me. I don't have time to start and monitor one myself. It's about time I took a break from this topic for a few days, anyway.

Welcome to the forum, by the way!

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Thanks! I've been a member since 2019 so it's good to be acknowledged. Lol I'm kidding

I think my comment was related. You can avoid the point I was making. I don't care so much. it still stands. There is a significant cross-section of Christianity that picks and chooses the sins deemed unacceptable.

As far as Jesus is concerned, when we become sinless like him, we can judge and separate sheep from goat, I guess. Until then, graciousness and generosity are in order. That's not what has happened, unfortunately. Not long ago, Christians fought to keep families from receiving benefits. They said they were protecting the sanctity of marriage but its end result would have been horrible for families. Think about that. "We don't agree with your relationship so no health insurance for the dependents." Call it what you want, but regular folk see it as hate and not some special pleading for righteousness.

Here's the worst part: It's not about love for the homosexual; it's all a selfish desire to secure one's own righteousness by declaring someone else a sinner. It's the selfish desire for righteousness that led Saul to persecute Christ-followers, and this is no different. It's just another version of persecution driven by self-interest.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'll have you know I'm not as gay as people say I am, thank you very much.

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Right. They don't know the half of it. - LOL
(another great set-up)

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[St. SteVen]

I've never seen any reputable, conclusive studies showing that babies are born with sexual inclinations of any kind.

Well, not babies. And not sexual inclinations.
It would show up later. But could be evident fairly early on.
Family dynamics can play into it as well.

Testosterone and estrogen levels are related to all kinds of things, except the tendency toward same-sexual attraction.

Not sure about that either.

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[BarneyFife]

It is comparatively.
Christians are activating to put a stop to homosexuality but doing nothing about greed.
I think that's the point. (which you already understand, I think)

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I've never heard of a thread being comparatively about something - lol.

Only about stuff and not about stuff.

I'm not too good with abstracts and hypotheticals, and my wife says I engage in semantics too much.

For instance: "Christians are activating to put a stop to homosexuality" is a bit vague to me, as you might expect.

I consider myself a hopeless (as you would use the word in the term: "hopeless romantic") Christian, and I'm not naive enough to think I could stop homosexuality. The word "stop" is pretty strong to me. And "homosexuality" is a pretty intimidating object, so to speak, to have to halt.

(My notifications are blowing up... Oh, it's you. I'd better get that. )

I was a machinist by trade and everything had to be precise and thoroughly detailed.

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
2) It's not actually a sin until fornication and adultery enter the picture.

Which first happens in the mind, according to Christ.

Where do you draw the line?
Would any of us men get married if we weren't lusting after our wives to be?
Committing fornication in our hearts?

Would we procreate at all if God hadn't wired in the attraction?

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[St. SteVen]

I've never heard of a thread being comparatively about something - lol.

Only about stuff and not about stuff.

I'm not too good with abstracts and hypotheticals, and my wife says I engage in semantics too much.

You are so two dimensional. - LOL



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[St. SteVen]

(My notifications are blowing up... Oh, it's you. I'd better get that. )

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[BarneyFife]

Thanks! I've been a member since 2019 so it's good to be acknowledged. Lol I'm kidding

I think my comment was related. You can avoid the point I was making. I don't care so much. it still stands. There is a significant cross-section of Christianity that picks and chooses the sins deemed unacceptable.

As far as Jesus is concerned, when we become sinless like him, we can judge and separate sheep from goat, I guess. Until then, graciousness and generosity are in order. That's not what has happened, unfortunately. Not long ago, Christians fought to keep families from receiving benefits. They said they were protecting the sanctity of marriage but its end result would have been horrible for families. Think about that. "We don't agree with your relationship so no health insurance for the dependents." Call it what you want, but regular folk see it as hate and not some special pleading for righteousness.

Here's the worst part: It's not about love for the homosexual; it's all a selfish desire to secure one's own righteousness by declaring someone else a sinner. It's the selfish desire for righteousness that led Saul to persecute Christ-followers, and this is no different. It's just another version of persecution driven by self-interest.

I couldn't help but notice your post history seems to be all from this year.

I don't mean to avoid your point at all.

But I can't answer for the hypocrites, vipers, and blind guides of the world.

And I simply don't have 99% of the objections they have.

I believe the tired, old adage that God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

Being a Christian conservative moderate with compassion in the micro and standards in the macro is a tough tight-wire act to perform, even when consecrating oneself to God twice a day and thrice on The Lord's Day, but I'm convinced it's worth pursuing.

FWIW, I've spoken up many times in these discussions about the blame that Christians bear for being so perverse within their own illusory heterosexual cocoons.

I appreciate your comments and concerns.

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[BarneyFife]

You are so two dimensional. - LOL

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I used to run a 6-axis machining center that cut the fins on turbine engine impellers.

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