Homosexuality

[dragonfly]

Greetings all,

To brightmorningstar,

I think this, 'If non-believers follow God’s laws and dont do same-sex relations, how are they going to end up dammed because of them? They wont will they', is a straw man with regard to their salvation, but there may be advantages to both Godly and secular society.


To Rach,

But I wonder....do we really know what sin...any sin...is doing to our souls? (in post #849)

My experience is that we don't, until God begins healing; and then we begin to get the measure of it, because He makes us truly clean and whole.



Hi Kidron,

As for me...
I dont believe that the bible tolerates 'gay sex" as "love".
I'll use Paul as my doctrinal position

In that case, you'll have to use the definition Paul was using, and notice how often he may have been addressing homosexual behaviour as a 'sin of the flesh' - in the Church.

He didn't mock and ridicule anyone or call them names, but he did warn them they would be disinheriting themselves from the kingdom of God if they did not resist the flesh by walking in the Spirit. That's right. They had the Holy Spirit and they were still stuggling with flesh.

Paul didn't pretend it didn't matter. In fact, your position on the continuance of sin after becoming a Christian, and Paul's, are poles apart.




Blessings.

 

[aspen]

We are all coming from a different point of view - in my mind homosexual love is like driving a car that breaks down every day and is held together by duct tape. It is broken, but it is still a car. To you guys, it is anything less than showroom quality, it is no longer a car. Do you really think God is that unyielding?

Where's the mercy?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

We are all coming from a different point of view - in my mind homosexual love is like driving a car that breaks down every day and is held together by duct tape. It is broken, but it is still a car. To you guys, it is anything less than showroom quality, it is no longer a car. Do you really think God is that unyielding?

Where's the mercy?

God is unyeilding about sin but He is merciful to those who turn to Him from sin.

As for God's people, I think it's complicated by a number of factors. Adults who have not/are not dealing with their own baggage in an adult way before God, have blind spots. And those who don't have baggage think they know better than those who do, when in fact they have their own blind spots.

 

[aspen]

we all have blind spots, no matter how self examined we are.

http://www.businessballs.com/johariwindowmodel.htm

I am starting to think that sin is allowed to continue so that we call all see how hopelessly mired we are in it so that we can stop judging each other.

 

[Foreigner]

I am starting to think that sin is allowed to continue so that we call all see how hopelessly mired we are in it so that we can stop judging each other.

-- That is actually drivel.
Sin is allowed to continue because God is affording us every opportunity to turn away from it before His judgment.
It is during this time we as Christians are supposed to share His Gospel to help as many turn away from sin before it is too late.

 

[aspen]

-- That is actually drivel.
Sin is allowed to continue because God is affording us every opportunity to turn away from it before His judgment.
It is during this time we as Christians are supposed to share His Gospel to help as many turn away from sin before it is too late.

Why do you sound so angry about this?

 

[Foreigner]

I am not angry in the least. Not excited. Not upset. Not wound up. Not hyper. Not tense. Not upset. etc. etc. etc. Actually, I am feeling pretty laid back tonight.
If you truly feel that way then you have missed the point completely. c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e-l-y.

God does not allow sin to continue in order for us to see how hopelessly mired we are in it in order to quit judging others.
You can quit judging others but still continue to live in sin that will cost you your salvation.
God allows it to continue - although it hurts and offends him deeply - in order to allow as many as possible to be saved before He returns....because then it will be too late.

 

[Rach1370]

Well, you may be right, Rach - I would never advocate for a Christian to close off one area of their lives to God, however......

Are people supposed to 'get their act together' before they are allowed to follow God? I used to try and do this because I was ashamed of sinful patterns in my life. Now I have decided that it is a mind trap that keeps me separated from God. It is better to ask for forgiveness for the 10 millionth time and follow God then to be paralyzed with shame and allow bitterness and resentment to stall my sanctification. In my case it is a divorce - God hates divorce, but, for me it is a reality,, so what now? Did I just blow off 35 years of sanctification? Or is God forgiving and a provider of healing? Leading me on in my sanctification, despite my disobedience? I believe that God is forgiving and blesses a humble heart.

I wonder if it is the same way for some homosexuals - I am talking about homosexuals who know that their behavior is sinful, but have been defeated in this area of their lives. I think it might just be a matter of acknowledging their sin, yet refusing to stop loving God and others. If they are constantly submitting their lives to Christ, even in their defeated area of life, I wonder if God sees their brokenness and continues to sanctify them - ultimately healing them completely.

As Christians we are absolutely supposed to run to God when we sin, rather than away and try and clean ourselves up. Absolutely to grow in sanctification we are to keep our eyes pinned on Jesus...the 'author and perfecter of our faith'.
As far as divorce, or whatever we may be struggling in or under, we need to look at it like this: something occurs that we feel we need to repent of. Looking to Jesus and drawing near to him we repent, knowing that through his grace we have been forgiven and will continue to be. But we must be careful...true repentance is not like a kid slugging someone 'sorry', hitting again, 'sorry', and again, 'sorry'. True repentance is where we realise that our sin has harmed us and grieved God. It leads to change, turning away from that behaviour as we focus on Christ. How on earth can a person living in homosexual sin (and I'm talking of those claiming to be Christian's here) on a daily basis, look fully at Jesus in joy while in those moments being exactly like the kids who fully intend to hit again....indeed not sorry at all? That's why we have so many of these people try their best to convince us and themselves that God is really okay with gay people being gay in the Church. They want to be able to look at Jesus with a clean conscience. But as long as the bible is true (and I believe 100% that it is and it will never change) they are just deceiving themselves. It's sad and tragic, but still not okay, and as long as they continue to deceive themselves, they will never be free of sin and never experience that healing you're talking about, that comes from complete surrender to Jesus.

 

[aspen]

"That is actually drivel."

I guess there was no exclamation point at the end, but this type of language appears to communicate disdain or at least disgust.

Guess that is how you talk to people when you are laid back - I stand corrected once more.

Did you notice that my post was speculation? This is an old discussion Foreigner - I speculate and throw out opinions to help myself understand larger ideas - I've never claimed to be a teacher.

 

[Foreigner]

You mean like the time you 'speculated' that Christians were actually jealous of homosexuals?

 

[aspen]

You mean like the time you 'speculated' that Christians were actually jealous of homosexuals?

Exactly - that was a great one

You gotta love it, Foreigner - I give you plenty of material to sneer at.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2
It interesting that some of us are seeing your posts, and you are seeing our posts, as drivel.
Yes we are all coming from a different point of view, that’s the problem. You are approaching it from the world’s pov and not God’s. Here is why..

in my mind homosexual love

There is no scripture that says anything about love being homosexual; there is scripture that describes how it isn’t. Whilst you are seeing love as something that involves same-sex sex, you are missing God.
The car is being driven over a cliff edge. You have missed the important bit.

Where's the mercy?

The gospel. Christ transforms and renews the mind.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rach,

I know why you mentioned divorce, (post # 868), but I wish it had not been in the same sentence you mentioned 'repent', as not everyone who is divorced has to repent over it. They may very appropriately grieve over it, but repentance may not be the issue for the innocent party - although I acknowledge it may be, too. Both parties have to take responsibility before God, for their own actions/thoughts towards each other. Nevertheless, the person who actually breaks wedlock creates the situation in which the faithful party may divorce them with a clear conscience.

 

[Foreigner]

Exactly - that was a great one

You gotta love it, Foreigner - I give you plenty of material to sneer at.

-- I feel bad saying this - and I know you won't care in the least - but when you say things like that I actually feel sorry for you.

If you go back and reread that post you will see you were absolutely serious when you said it.

To be at your stage in life, at your age, and seriously ponder a thought like that as possible fact....

 

[aspen]

-- I feel bad saying this - and I know you won't care in the least - but when you say things like that I actually feel sorry for you.

If you go back and reread that post you will see you were absolutely serious when you said it.

To be at your stage in life, at your age, and seriously ponder a thought like that as possible fact....

I am rarely serious, Foreigner.

I think that is one of our biggest differences.

I simply enjoy thinking about new ideas - I find it relaxing.

Have a good day - I am off to work!

 

[Foreigner]

So, when you say "I am serious about this".....you really aren't.

And as far as rarely being serious, I remember you very angrily declaring that anyone who votes against gay marraige is violating their civil rights.
There are also a number of times - if you were to be candid - that you were obviously posting out of anger and frustration.

I would dare say you are using selective memory.

 

[aspen]

So, when you say "I am serious about this".....you really aren't.

And as far as rarely being serious, I remember you very angrily declaring that anyone who votes against gay marraige is violating their civil rights.
There are also a number of times - if you were to be candid - that you were obviously posting out of anger and frustration.

I would dare say you are using selective memory.

I didn't say that I am never serious.

 

[brightmorningstar]

I didn't say that I am never serious.

Foreigner didnt say you did.
The point is, what you understand about everything is clearly different from what we understand

If He is not Lord of all, then He is not Lord at all.

 

[Rach1370]

Hi Rach,

I know why you mentioned divorce, (post # 868), but I wish it had not been in the same sentence you mentioned 'repent', as not everyone who is divorced has to repent over it. They may very appropriately grieve over it, but repentance may not be the issue for the innocent party - although I acknowledge it may be, too. Both parties have to take responsibility before God, for their own actions/thoughts towards each other. Nevertheless, the person who actually breaks wedlock creates the situation in which the faithful party may divorce them with a clear conscience.

I quite agree that in some divorces one may be the innocent party. I said:

"As far as divorce, or whatever we may be struggling in or under, we need to look at it like this: something occurs that we feel we need to repent of."

In saying that divorce may be something we are struggling under, I was trying (maybe not well!) to say that divorce may be a hardship or tragedy that was tossed on top of you. I also said that if it's something we feel we need to repent of. My sister is divorced...she divorced an abusive man...a man who had broken the covenant of marriage the first time he abused her. This is not something she needed to repent of, or feel that she did...even though she initiated it. So, no, I do not claim that divorce is something that must see both parties as sinful.
Although, through my experience of this, I would have to say that although a person may not be to blame for the actual divorce, they do tend to carry feelings that need to be given to Christ.
Thanks for bringing this up, as I wouldn't want others to think I'm pointing the finger at all divorced people.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rach,

Thanks for you reply. You've cleared up all my concerns.