Homosexuality

[KingJ]

Those who profess a lie are worse.

Rev_13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

In all His Love

Can you point to a lie? If you are going to accuse / condemn a brother in Christ, please give some evidence or retract that statement.

Having re-read your posts, you have to see that you are not correctly distinguishing the differences between judging, condemning, conviction and discerning. I have read some of your other posts and it caused me to re-read these here, as we seem to only be in disagreement on this subject. Perhaps if talking face to face we would not be butting heads so .

 

[mjrhealth]

See KJ, I met Jesus, and when I saw His face I saw what I was. When I compare myself to Him I see how small I am, and that I am nothing compared to Him. And so I find I cannot judge any man, for I find that in His eyes we are all equal, no matter how you may see one,So I let Him do teh conviction and I with His help just try to do teh Loving best I can.

Se Jesus is knocking at the doors of men, just waiting for them to open them up and let Him in. Once you do, you find you whole world gets turned on its head and nothing will ever be teh same, and you will see people differently, but you must let Him into all you life, every door must be opened every room swept clean. If you hold just one door closed He cannot do His work,

Try it, its scary at first, but you will see things quiet differently.

In Al His Love

 

[KingJ]

See KJ, I met Jesus, and when I saw His face I saw what I was. When I compare myself to Him I see how small I am, and that I am nothing compared to Him. And so I find I cannot judge any man, for I find that in His eyes we are all equal, no matter how you may see one,So I let Him do teh conviction and I with His help just try to do teh Loving best I can.

Se Jesus is knocking at the doors of men, just waiting for them to open them up and let Him in. Once you do, you find you whole world gets turned on its head and nothing will ever be teh same, and you will see people differently, but you must let Him into all you life, every door must be opened every room swept clean. If you hold just one door closed He cannot do His work,

Try it, its scary at first, but you will see things quiet differently.

In Al His Love

Amen and I agree. Paul says 'there go I but by the grace of God'. We do not condemn any unsaved. They are in darkness. We need to be gentle like the Holy Spirit with them! BUT with Christians. Still be 'gentle' but bring correction as Paul says. First by ourselves, if they reject us, then with a few witnesses and if still rejected, the elders. Bring discernment. Not condemnation, because then the verse you quoted Rev 13:10 comes into play.

In my church the elders will kick you out if you continue in homosexuality. Having no desire to repent or try to turn from it. Your church?

 

[mjrhealth]

I do not go to church, I am the church. Do you not recall, You are the temple of the Living God", how can I go to some thing I am. I refuse to follow men and there doctrines, teachings, myths and traditions. I follow Christ alone. Jesus turns His back on no man. Jesus cast no man out, it is our choice to believe or not, accept Him or not, Love Him or, He forces Himself on no one. I belong to Jesus, I am His private property He paid the price for Me and all men.

In His Love

 

[KingJ]

I do not go to church, I am the church. Do you not recall, You are the temple of the Living God", how can I go to some thing I am. I refuse to follow men and there doctrines, teachings, myths and traditions. I follow Christ alone. Jesus turns His back on no man. Jesus cast no man out, it is our choice to believe or not, accept Him or not, Love Him or, He forces Himself on no one. I belong to Jesus, I am His private property He paid the price for Me and all men.

In His Love

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
1 Cor 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought (how can we achieve this outside of a church / gathering of believers).
Eph 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Note these are all talking about our obligations to our brothers and sisters in Christ. We are to be there for them as they are there for us.

 

[Foreigner]

I do not go to church, I am the church. Do you not recall, You are the temple of the Living God", how can I go to some thing I am. I refuse to follow men and there doctrines, teachings, myths and traditions. I follow Christ alone. Jesus turns His back on no man. Jesus cast no man out, it is our choice to believe or not, accept Him or not, Love Him or, He forces Himself on no one. I belong to Jesus, I am His private property He paid the price for Me and all men.

In His Love

-- Jesus Himself regularly went to the Synagogue (almost always just to attend and not to preach).
Peter and John continued to go to the Synagogue even after Pentacost.
Paul regularly wrote letters to the Church's that he, Timothy, and others helped establish.

But I hear you saying you're better than that.

 

[mjrhealth]

And you will not take things to Jesus and insist on leaning on your own understanding, thank God He is patient with us.But soon the seperation will be complete. Who are you going to run to, church or Jesus, and by the way look up church and see where it comes from, it changes the whole thing completely , that is if you desire the truth.

In all His Love

 

[marksman]

-- Jesus Himself regularly went to the Synagogue (almost always just to attend and not to preach).
Peter and John continued to go to the Synagogue even after Pentacost.
Paul regularly wrote letters to the Church's that he, Timothy, and others helped establish.

But I hear you saying you're better than that.

In all honesty, we need to know what church we are talking about. New Testament or today's man made religious observance. There are a large number of churches out there who are just flogging a dead horse.

Are you saying that we should be committing ourselves to an organisation that has no life in it?

Are you saying that we should give ourselves to a group of people who ignore most of what the bible says?

Are you saying that just because an organisation calls itself a church, that God approves of it?

I would love to be part of a God breathed, God led and God anointed church but when they don't exist, why give time and effort to second best which will NEVER produce the outcomes that God intended.

All that does is make the leadership happy and give some credibility to something that has none.

 

[mjrhealth]

There is God Jesus and teh Holy Spirit, everything else is second best.

Agree with you marksman and a big AMEN Lisa, sorry i missed your post.

In All His Love

 

[KingJ]

In all honesty, we need to know what church we are talking about. New Testament or today's man made religious observance. There are a large number of churches out there who are just flogging a dead horse.

Are you saying that we should be committing ourselves to an organisation that has no life in it?

Are you saying that we should give ourselves to a group of people who ignore most of what the bible says?

Are you saying that just because an organisation calls itself a church, that God approves of it?

I would love to be part of a God breathed, God led and God anointed church but when they don't exist, why give time and effort to second best which will NEVER produce the outcomes that God intended.

All that does is make the leadership happy and give some credibility to something that has none.

If you read the scripures I quoted in post # 1105 you will see how important going to church is.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. If God can help us find a good spouse, He can help us find the right church.

 

[jiggyfly]

-- Jesus Himself regularly went to the Synagogue (almost always just to attend and not to preach).

As was the custom of His day within the Jewish culture. The new way and new covenant came @ Pentecost following Christ's death.

Peter and John continued to go to the Synagogue even after Pentacost.

It took awhile for even the apostles to understand the new way.

Paul regularly wrote letters to the Church's that he, Timothy, and others helped establish.

The KJV mistranslated Ecclesia it doesn't mean church, it means assembly as in a group or gathering and is reference to the believers in a specific area or city.



The current man-made clergy/laity system is a similar to the priestly system of the old way that Israel used.

There is but one body and one head, and when you believe in Jesus and His work at the cross you become a part of this spiritual body, this is what Paul taught.

What must one do to be a member at a church? Does one need to attend the meetings, take a pledge, sign up for membership classes? The differences are huge when looked at closely and really considered.

 

[marksman]

If you read the scripures I quoted in post # 1105 you will see how important going to church is.

Not one of the verses that you quoted refer to as you so quaintly put it "going to church." The concept of "going to church" was non existent in the New Testament church.

Even Hebrews 10:25 in the original Greek says that it a gathering or collecting together. The word "church" (Greek ecclesia) is not in this verse. If you look at the history of the New Testament church, you will find that the dominant place to meet together was the home, which in those days, would have catered for no more than 30 people in an upper room.

These verses make this clear.

Acts 2:46 And continuing steadfastly with one mind day by day in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food in gladness and simplicity of heart,

Acts 8:3 Saul started making a lot of trouble for the church. He went from house to house, arresting men and women and putting them in jail.

1Cor 16:19 Greetings from the churches in Asia. Aquila and Priscilla, together with the church that meets in their house, send greetings in the name of the Lord.

So the idea of "going to church" meaning going to a building that holds 200, 2,000, 20,000 for a religious ceremony that never changes from week to week is a foreign concept to the New Testament church so there is nothing there to support such an idea which has become an ideology that has strayed from the truth.

The current man-made clergy/laity system is a similar to the priestly system of the old way that Israel used.

I am led to believe that all religions have a priestly class which lord it over everyone else. God made it very clear that he was establishing a religion/faith without a priestly class when he tore the veil in the temple.

This was his way of saying that the door to me is now open for anyone to come into my presence, not just the priests.

By reinventing the priestly class we are saying that we don't want everyone to have access to the Father. They still have to get their approval via the priest/pastor/senior pastor/associate pastor/youth pastor/vicar/father/pope/archdeacon/bishop/metropolitan/reverend/very reverend/canon/dean/and any other title you can think of.

As soon as anyone adopts a title, they are removing God's right to fellowship with all his children, rather than the select few who are seen as more spiritual than anyone else. The only priesthood recognised in the New Testament church was the priesthood of ALL believers.

In this respect there are no such words in the Greek that indicate a priest/laity divide.

 

[KingJ]

Marksman, take your verses with mine and add Pauls teaching on how a church should be run!!!!!!! With the chief issue imho being the need for qualified elders! So that we don't get Christians who pick scripture like candy (Blind leading the blind).

http://www.jimfeeney.org/eldersofthechurch.html James 5:14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. • In many churches today, unfortunately, sick believers could not obey this Scripture. Why? Because there are no elders in their church. • Every New Testament church needs elders. That is the biblical pattern. Acts 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders. Acts 14:23 Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church. Acts 20:17, KJV And from Miletus [Paul] sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well... • The Jerusalem church — led by men trained by Jesus Himself! — had elders (note the plural). • The apostle Paul made sure that the churches he established were left under the spiritual oversight of local church elders. • Pastor Timothy in Ephesus (1 Timothy 5:17) had elders helping him “direct the affairs of the church.” • The New Testament pattern is a plurality of elders in each local church. This eldership is the broad-based spiritual leadership of that church. From among those elders, one specific man will be the primary leader (generally called “pastor”) of that church. For example: • Timothy in Ephesus (1 & 2 Timothy) • Titus in Crete (Titus 1:5) • James in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13; also Galatians 2:12). • This pattern was foreshadowed in the Old Testament “church in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38, KJV). The main leader Moses was assisted by seventy elders (Numbers 11:16-17).

 

[marksman]

From among those elders, one specific man will be the primary leader (generally called “pastor”) of that church

Once again, you are making the scriptures say what you want it to say to reinforce modern day denominational dictates.

There are 25 verses in the New Testament that speaks about the leadership of the church. They all say the same and there is no deviation. The leadership was in the hands of the apostles, prophets and elders. NOT ONCE does it refer to a pastor being in charge and certainly there is no scriptural authority whatsoever for bringing in a leader from another church in the next town or state.

The word "pastor" only appears once in the New Testament and that is in Ephesians 4:11. It is one of the ministries Christ gave to the church. There is no indication that the ministry of a shepherd, which is what pastor means, was a position of authority. It was and always has been a ministry and NO ONE in the New Testament was ever called or referred to as "Pastor John" or Pastor Apollo."

Whenever you give someone a title and call him by it you are telling God that we prefer to do things our way, not his.

Paul backs me up on this one. He never addressed himself as Apostle Paul. he was always Paul, an apostle. In other words, Paul who has the ministry of an apostle, not a position as an apostle.

I have been involved in all sorts of ministry in the Church over the years but not once have I allowed myself to have a title and the sooner we drop all titles in the church the sooner we will have some credibility as George Barna conducted research as to why people did not attend church and the main reason at the top was the fact that ministers were full of their own self importance.

Jesus made it abundantly clear that the leadership that he approved of was servant leadership where you waited on tables, not one who sat at the top table. In all my 60 years as a Christian, I have only ever come across two "pastors" who have waited on tables. All the others have sat at the top table and expected to be waited on.

This only goes to show that most so called pastors favourite song is Frank Sinatra's "I did it my way."
.

 

[KingJ]

''From among those elders, one specific man will be the primary leader (generally called “pastor”) of that church''

You pick that sentence? You being pedantic and going off at a tangent.

So, do you NOT agree with the need for elders? or do you agree that meeting at a house for our 'church / gathering' without them is unscriptural?

 

[dragonfly]

''From among those elders, one specific man will be the primary leader (generally called “pastor”) of that church''

You pick that sentence? You being pedantic and going off at a tangent.

It's only a tangent because you first mentioned a 'primary leader', an idea that feeds the flesh of the minister rather than the body of the Lord.

do you agree that meeting at a house for our 'church / gathering' without them isunscriptural?

Where does it say that an elder has to be present wherever two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[mjrhealth]

If you read the scripures I quoted in post # 1105 you will see how important going to church is.

Going to church isnt important knowing Jesus is.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

In All His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Going to church isnt important knowing Jesus is.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

In All His Love

No one is saying it's not important to know Jesus. We know it is. But you are forsaking coming together with Christians. If this cannot be helped, I understand (churches around you teach error). But if you don't think they do, why forsake the gathering together?

Hebrews 10:23-25 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[marksman]

No one is saying it's not important to know Jesus. We know it is. But you are forsaking coming together with Christians. If this cannot be helped, I understand (churches around you teach error). But if you don't think they do, why forsake the gathering together?

I am not sure that anyone is consciously forsaking the gathering together with a spirit led gathering of God's people.

Hebrews 10:23-25 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promisedAnd let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

As I said in my previous post, the word "church" (ekklesia) does not appear in this verse. It refers to a gathering or collection of people so it is obvious it refers to something else other than what we term "church."

And it is undeniable that people can "go to church" every Sunday morning for 10 years and at the end of it all, they are no different to what they were 10 years ago.

What this means is that "going to church" is seriously flawed when it comes to knowing God personally or "going to church" has little value or is "going to church" not what God intended or is "going to church" the best way to avoid commitment and dying daily or is "going to church" something done to give me a good time or is "going to church" a man made concept to replace the true church and allow man to build his own kingdom.

Apart from the fact that in Corinthians it says that when you come together "every man has..." When was the last time you went to a meeting when every person contributed to what took place bearing in mind as well that the verse in Hebrews tells us to "exhort one another." It does not say the pastor is to exhort everyone else.

In 99 our of every 100 meetings, it is all down the few professionals to do EVERYTHING and the rest are just members of their cheer squad.

 

[mjrhealth]

I have yet to find a church that teaches teh truth. Second problem if you insist on listening to those who are in error, soon that error will creep into your thinking, It cant be helped. Go, jump into a vat of red dye and see what happens. If you want the truth you have it in Jesus.


Simple, the more time you spend at the feet of Jesus the more into the truth you will go, the more time you spend listening to man teh more in error you will grow.

In All His Love