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I don't think you are a Christian if you can't love anyone living. Sin or no sin. The issue is....The saved bring love with light. The unsaved bring love with darkness. The unsaved don't like the light. Hence we get persecuted. Hence some of us feel the need to dim or hide our light. Which is not going to help as we just may get stuck in darkness too.aspen2 said:is it ever right to withhold love from someone because of sin?
-- Of course. It is absolutely never right to withhold love from someone because of sin.aspen2 said:now do you want to answer the question, foreigner?
agreedForeigner said:-- Of course. It is absolutely never right to withhold love from someone because of sin.
And again, not supporting homosexual marraige is not 'withholding love' from someone.
I will give it an A+ for the simple reason that homosexuals in general think that theirs is the only sin that we are concerned with and they are a special case, whereas in fact they are no different to the heterosexual as described by you and the required response is just the same.That's not the best picture I've drawn, but I just thought I'd share that little bit.
According to scripture it is. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul told the church to deliver a man to satan for the destruction of his flesh because of his sex with his mother and they were told not to associate with certain people or eat with them. In other words, shun them.is it ever right to withhold love from someone because of sin?
That is one of the problems we face. Because of their emotional dysfunction, they have this idea that if you disagree with them you hate them and this idea is fuelled by the main stream media because their reporting of all things homosexual designate anyone who disagrees with them as being "homophobic" which is a complete lie.And again, not supporting homosexual marraige is not 'withholding love' from someone.
To speak to the 1 Corinthians passage a bit.marksman said:I will give it an A+ for the simple reason that homosexuals in general think that theirs is the only sin that we are concerned with and they are a special case, whereas in fact they are no different to the heterosexual as described by you and the required response is just the same.
According to scripture it is. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul told the church to deliver a man to satan for the destruction of his flesh because of his sex with his mother and they were told not to associate with certain people or eat with them. In other words, shun them.
That is one of the problems we face. Because of their emotional dysfunction, they have this idea that if you disagree with them you hate them and this idea is fuelled by the main stream media because their reporting of all things homosexual designate anyone who disagrees with them as being "homophobic" which is a complete lie.
But when has the main stream media been interested in the truth if it ruins a good story.
I guess Jesus must of being the greatest fool of all, spent most of His time with the "sinners" and being condmend by the pharisees for doing so while He continually told the pharisees off for their self righteousness. You will only ever know the Love of Christ when you truly get to know Him, than you wont run around calling everyone else sinners. Because you will truly understand what Jesus has done for "ALL MEN"y stating we are not supporting, enabling, or condoning their sin
So are you saying Paul was wrong in his decision?mjrhealth said:I guess Jesus must of being the greatest fool of all, spent most of His time with the "sinners" and being condmend by the pharisees for doing so while He continually told the pharisees off for their self righteousness. You will only ever know the Love of Christ when you truly get to know Him, than you wont run around calling everyone else sinners. Because you will truly understand what Jesus has done for "ALL MEN"
In All His Love
So are you saying Paul didn't know Jesus?mjrhealth said:As Jesus said,
"You wont come to Me so I can give you etternal Life". If you dont know Jesus than you will never understand His Love. And I dont mean "about Him".
In all His Love
I was only posting this to give some perspective of the other side of the argument, again I do not condone the practice of homosexuality nor can I speak against the judgment of God. Yes homosexuals will be judged by God, and so will murdering Christians.dragonfly said:Hi justaname,
The problem with Peter Tatchell's article, is the way it overlooks the first and second commandments. He does not acknowledge that sodomy is rooted in idolatry, nor, that is it not Christians who are intolerant of sodomy, but God, who, after all humanistic reconciliations, still will have the final say.
Thank you for your post, and let me say I do agree with most of what you said. Please don't think I am attempting to antagonize you by my questions and prodding, I am not. I honestly appreciate your stance, and personally I hold one very similar to yours myself. Let me inform you of where I am coming from though so maybe you can better appreciate the nuance of my point of view.mjrhealth said:justaname,
for what ever reason Paul did what he did. The disciples where human beings like you and me, they where not perfect no matter how christians try to make them out to be, if they where Jesus would not of said to Peter.' get thee behind me satan", Peter would not have denied Jesus 3 times, and they would not have made silly statements like telling women to wear a covering over there head. You and I have no right by any stretch of the imagination to judge anyone, and when you tell someone they are going to go to hell, than you have judged them and found them guilty, you have no right to do so, that is reserved solely for Jesus, so remember this, next time you call someone a sinner. or tell someone they are going to hell, it is not them who have sinned against you, it is you that have sinned against them, and I hope they can forgive you.
In All His Love
So I know, whosoever has showed you what they have, and has said what they have to you are lying to you, plain and simple.Raeneske said:I know because I understand what scripture is referring to. I know it was prophesied to be as the days of Sodom and Gomorrah when our Lord came, so I know that people will twist scripture to make homosexuality look like it's approved by God. So I know, whosoever has showed you what they have, and has said what they have to you are lying to you, plain and simple.
If you reason with the context of the scripture, you will see that it does not refer to FEM or anything else whatsoever. Things are spiritually discerned.
Any struggling homosexual who will accept that their sin is homosexuality, and accept that they want freedom from it, will get it. But that's when they accept it. If they refuse to accept it, they may end up dying in their sins.
It doesn't take an educated man, it doesn't take a theologian, it doesn't take a pastor, it doesn't take a preacher, nor a Jesuit, etc. to understand what scripture is saying. I understand, in these days men will most likely take scripture and twist it to suit their own needs. It's the time we live in. But last time I checked --- all it takes is a humble, willing spirit to learn what the Lord feels. I'm not going to sit down, and systematically twist scriptures, or have someone else systematically twist them to suit my own needs. When I learn what I have been doing was sin, I in fact must give it up --- no matter the struggle.
God made man, MAN, for a reason. If he wanted you to be a woman, He would have made you that way. If He wanted you to be someone who multiplied with the same sex, He would have made you that way. God did not make anyone gay, nor does He ever. He's not an idiot --- He knows what He is doing. If He wanted the man to be attracted to man --- He would have made them that way.
Again, if you have trouble understanding --- look at the context of what you are reading. It is not talking about FEM, as men have left the natural use of women --- Nature itself shows you men and women go together --- Therefore they have left such a natural use, and God has given them up to their vile affections since they did not like to retain God in their minds. Now here's the key, the people in turn left the natural use of the opposite sex, and burned in lust towards the same sex. This has nothing to do with the economy. This is how you know what God is talking about. The attention paid here, is to gender. The men left the natural use of woman, and burned in lust towards one another. Men then turned the gender which they left natural use of, towards the same gender. They then began to burn in lust towards those of their same gender. Why? Because they did not like to retain God in their minds. Some did not like to hear the Gospel, and some actually refuse to hear the truth towards homosexuality. This is a sexual tone --- why? Because scripture leads it to mean that. Not me, not the guy next door, not your best friend, and not your enemy. Scripture itself leads into that meaning, so that there can be no mistake. This is how I know --- I accept scripture for what it says, and not what I want it to say. Systematically changing every single word so it does not lead to homosexuality, will never change what this passage means. Scripture is plain on homosexuality. It is a sin. It of course, is more open, and more looked down upon than others. Sometimes things like pride, or arrogance, or hypocrisy are ignored, when God plainly and clearly hates those sins as well. Those are disgusting themselves. But that's not the point. The point is --- homosexuality is a sin. Those who do not wish it to be true will be left to receive the lies of Satan. Those who will learn the truth, will be open to it, and will hear it.
If anyone is a homosexual, they can check out some ex-gay testimonies. You can be free, just like everyone else who has an issue with sin. I struggle to, I call it a mind sin, but I guess it's a heart sin as well. Where I can and will instantly curse, or think a very evil thought in my heart. I hate it, with a passion. It's incredibly hard to control. But I'm still pushing. Sometimes I feel like giving up, but I won't. I don't know why it's so hard to control my own mind, I cannot even understand such a thing. But it's a struggle, nonetheless. No one said all this would immediately go away, and the struggle is sometimes longer and more horrid than you can imagine. There was never a promise that it would be easy. It's just promised that it will be worth it. Any homosexual --- There's a promise that you have help, and there's a promise that it will be worth it.
Quote: But I still need to know how you know that Homosexuality is sinful.marksman said:To know that you have to study the whole revelation of sexuality in scriptures. I have done this and the overall conclusion is that all sex outside the marriage of a man and a woman is sinful.
That covers, fornication, adultery, sodomy, paedophilia, sex with animals, rape, homosexuality or anything else you can think off that takes place outside the God approved male/female marriage.
God made it clear and Jesus backed him up. In Genesis 2:24, God said a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. No other configuration was considered for the simple reason God created man's psychological and emotional DNA to function effectively as a husband or a wife.
Jesus referred to his Father's plan in Matthew19:5 when He said, "For this reason a man shall leave father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh" repeating what God said in Genesis. 2:24.
Not joined to his boyfriend girlfriend, lover, sex provider etc. Someone one said that every time you have sex with someone who is not your wife/husband you give a bit of yourself away to your detriment.
That means any other configuration/action is NOT the will of God and when we ignore this fact, we are bit by bit destroying our emotional/psychological selves.
http://www.dio.org/blog/item/326.htmlkepha31 said:Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Our state's elected lawmakers will soon consider a bill called "The Religious Freedom and Marriage Fairness Act." A more fraudulent title for this dangerous measure could not be imagined. The proposed law is, in truth, a grave assault upon both religious liberty and marriage. All people of goodwill, and especially Christ's faithful committed to my pastoral care in the Diocese of Springfield in Illinois, should resolutely oppose this bill and make their opinions known to their representatives.
The pending bill would, for the first time in our state's history, redefine marriage to legally recognize same-sex "marriages." But neither two men nor two women - nor, for that matter, three or more people - can possibly form a marriage. Our law would be lying if it said they could.
The basic structure of marriage as the exclusive and lasting relationship of a man and a woman, committed to a life which is fulfilled by having children, is given to us in human nature, and thus by nature's God. Notwithstanding the vanity of human wishes, every society in human history - including every society untouched by Jewish or Christian revelation - has managed to grasp this profound truth about human relationships and happiness: marriage is the union of man and woman.
The bill's sponsors maintain it would simply extend marriage to some people who have long been arbitrarily excluded from it. They are wrong. The pending bill would not expand the eligibility-roster for marriage. It would radically redefine what marriage is- for everybody.
It would enshrine in our law - and thus in public opinion and practice - three harmful ideas:
These ideas would deepen the sexual revolution's harms on all society. After all, if marriage is an emotional union meant for adult satisfactions, why should it be sexually exclusive? Or limited to two? Or pledged to permanence? If children don't need both their mother and father, why should fathers stick around when romance fades? As marriage is redefined, it becomes harder for people to see the point of these profoundly important marital norms, to live by them, and to encourage others to do the same. The resulting instability hurts spouses, but also - and especially - children, who do best when reared by their committed mother and father.
- What essentially makes a marriage is romantic-emotional union.
- Children don't need both a mother and father.
- The main purpose of marriage is adult satisfactions.
Indeed, children's need - and right - to be reared by the mother and father whose union brought them into being explains why our law has recognized marriage as a conjugal partnership - the union of husband and wife - at all. Our lawmakers have understood that marriage is naturally oriented to procreation, to family. Of course, marriage also includes a committed, intimate relationship of a sort which some same-sex couples (or multiple lovers in groups of three or more) could imitate. But our law never recognized and supported marriage in order to regulate intimacy for its own sake. The reason marriage is recognized in civil law at all (as ordinary friendships, or other sacraments, are not) is specific to the committed, intimate relationships of people of opposite-sex couples: they are by nature oriented to having children. Their love-making acts are life-giving acts.
Same-sex relationships lack this unique predicate of state recognition and support. Even the most ideologically blinded legislator cannot change this natural fact: the sexual acts of a same-sex couple (regardless of how one views them morally) are simply not of the type that yield the gift of new life. So they cannot extend a union of hearts by a true bodily union. They cannot turn a friendship into the one-flesh union of marriage. They are not marital. This is not just a Christian idea, but one common to every major religious tradition and our civilization's great philosophical traditions, beginning with ancient Greece and Rome.
The pending bill is not only a dangerous social experiment about marriage. It is also a lethal attack upon religious liberty. This so-called "religious freedom" would not stop the state from obligating the Knights of Columbus to make their halls available for same-sex "weddings." It would not stop the state from requiring Catholic grade schools to hire teachers who are legally "married" to someone of the same sex. This bill would not protect Catholic hospitals, charities, or colleges, which exclude those so "married" from senior leadership positions. Nor would it protect me, the Bishop of Springfield, if I refused to employ someone in a same-sex "marriage" who applied to the Diocese for a position meant to serve my ministry as your bishop. This "religious freedom" law does nothing at all to protect the consciences of people in business, or who work for the government. We saw the harmful consequences of deceptive titles all too painfully last year when the so-called "Religious Freedom Protection and Civil Union Act" forced Catholic Charities out of foster care and adoption services in Illinois.
These threats do not raise a question about drafting a better law, one with more extensive conscience protections. There is no possible way - none whatsoever- for those who believe that marriage is exclusively the union of husband and wife to avoid legal penalties and harsh discriminatory treatment if the bill becomes law. Why should we expect it be otherwise? After all, we would be people who, according to the thinking behind the bill, hold onto an "unfair" view of marriage. The state would have equated our view with bigotry - which it uses the law to marginalize in every way short of criminal punishment.
The only way to protect religious liberty, and to preserve marriage, is to defeat this perilous proposal. Please make sure our elected representatives understand that and know that they will be held to account.
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Most Reverend Thomas John Paprocki
Bishop of Springfield in Illinois
And have you found Him yet or are you still following the street map. He isnt hiding away. You still dont get it, if you cant show them Jesus you have nothing to offer, reading teh bible is not showing them Jesus it is merely reading teh bible, Havnt you ever noticed how Jesus fed the people first than He spoke to them, go read what HE did follow His example.and the scriptures point to Him.