House Churches

[bbyrd009]

How anyone can say Paul was not speaking of a literal gathering place is illogical.

well, i went and looked, and "church" there is still defined as "ecclesia," and obviously you could come together in a group of people, too. No offense, but the "building" has been constructed out of thin air

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

i mean, unless walls were physically constructed, divisions describes ecclesia, not buildings, right.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh really Rollo? Yes, in this present time I might agree with you. But what happened when the "elders" told Moses that he took on too much and they were famous men too? And do we nepotism there? Now God picked Aaron... But it was Moses' brother... And let's face it... He was a flake!

Haggai wouldn't agree either. The elders said it wasn't time to build the Lord's house.

Would you question Paul or Peter for their appointments? Would you tell them they have too much power? Look. Forget them... If Thaddeus, Thomas or Simon the Zealot were speaking at Yankee Stadium I am going and I would pay 5 grand to hear them! If their fee was more, I'd pay that too!

Bottom line... Your view of Chirch Gov't. Is not what God instituted.it may be necessary in this day and age. But its not the way Goddoes it.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
God picked Aaron and that was a mistake?
God makes mistakes?
And the other stuff you said.
Doesn't fit my thoughts.
Please try again.

 

[aspen]

This is an honest question - do you guys think think that house churches are more susceptible to heresy/corruption than larege churches? Or is it the same risk, but perhaps different forms?

The reason I am asking is because of my own experience with small churches and home churches, which isnt extensive, but has been negative - the first church I went on my own at 15, split and a house church i attended briefly, had an ego maniac as a pastor who didnt believe he was responsible to earthly authority.

I am not saying home churches do not work, btw - but my experience has not been positive. I recognize the dangers involved in large churches, as well, but it works better for me experiencing a hierarchy of authority.

 

[bbyrd009]

I suppose you could quote something to support this, but not the Bible. The Bible describes the Church as a body of members. It also speaks of a literal gathering place for the Church (a body of members). Go ahead and try to pull a verse out that says a Church is an individual.

i could do that for the rest of the day; you are building...well, something, right, on a foundation, either sand or stone, and etc. You are called to seek your own salvation. You are called a priest of a temple. Literal gathering places are inferred for those who read the Book as a literal history, until they learn outside the camp and scapegoats i guess. The heir is under servants while he is still a child. Literal churches pretty much all involve building towers

 

[bbyrd009]

The Bible describes the Church as a body of members.

amen

It also speaks of a literal gathering place for the Church (a body of members).

well, It also condemns building permanent structures, paying particular attn to towers, but we aren't considering those vv at all, right

 

[FHII]

well, i went and looked, and "church" there is still defined as "ecclesia," and obviously you could come together in a group of people, too. No offense, but the "building" has been constructed out of thin air

"Ecclesia" is not a definition. Its a word. Saying the word "church" means "ecclesia" is about as useful as saying the word "ecclesia" means "church".

Great! Now where do we go? Defining Church as ecclesia is as useful as defining man as "hombre".

It is quite obvious people came together in a group. But this chapter describes a place that they came together at.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well lets put that to the test:

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

We have "ye coming together". That is to say "the Church" being one body, many members. And the Church came together in the Church. The Church met in a Church.

so you say, but you have added the building here, see, to fit with your preconceptions. you can come together in the church anywhere. Personally i doubt Jesus would go within a million miles of a building with a cross on the roof lol

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Corinthians 11:20 KJV
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

The Church came together into ONE PLACE. A place is not an individual. A place is not a body of members. A place is... Well, A PLACE! Its a location. A geographical point.

a park is a place, too, right. So is a meadow, or a riverbank

 

[bbyrd009]

Everything about this is literal.

then bam ignore for now that you and i are divided on this issue; yet we have never been under the same roof!

 

[FHII]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
God picked Aaron and that was a mistake?

Did I say it was?

God makes mistakes?

Did I say he does?

And the other stuff you said.
Doesn't fit my thoughts.
Please try again.

No. I will not try again. Why should I? To please you? Look Rollo... If you don't understamd my point thats fine. I can either try to explain it to you or we can move on. But no... I am not going to try again just because it doesn't fit your thoughts.

Furthermore, you have totally failed to address thw main point I was getting at. You want to take power away from the Pastor (the leader) and give ot to the people. That is not the way God did things!

A working example: only 2 people ever challenged an apostle: 1. Jesus and 2. Another apostle. And it didn't happen often. Likewise no one challenged Moses successfully. When they did, it didn't go so well, did it?

 

[FHII]

i mean, unless walls were physically constructed, divisions describes ecclesia, not buildings, right.

Wrong. 1 cor 11 still referred to the Church as a place and contrasted the Church with houses.

 

[Pisteuo]

This is an honest question - do you guys think think that house churches are more susceptible to heresy/corruption than larege churches? Or is it the same risk, but perhaps different forms?

The reason I am asking is because of my own experience with small churches and home churches, which isnt extensive, but has been negative - the first church I went on my own at 15, split and a house church i attended briefly, had an ego maniac as a pastor who didnt believe he was responsible to earthly authority.

I am not saying home churches do not work, btw - but my experience has not been positive. I recognize the dangers involved in large churches, as well, but it works better for me experiencing a hierarchy of authority.

It's a fair question. But I've had similar experiences with large churches in large buildings. But I would imagine you could go to about any church and find past members that would have some negative thing to say about their former church. I would have to agree that dangers lurk in house churches as well. And fwiw, I have petitioned God many times about this and where He wants me and my family. It would surely be easier to find a local congregation to attend. Nevertheless we press on till He leads us down a different path.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Ecclesia" is not a definition. Its a word. Saying the word "church" means "ecclesia" is about as useful as saying the word "ecclesia" means "church".

Great! Now where do we go? Defining Church as ecclesia is as useful as defining man as "hombre".

It is quite obvious people came together in a group. But this chapter describes a place that they came together at.

and if you believe that it must be a building, then i have no desire to change your mind on the matter, ok. There are several, many other passages that discuss or mention building permanent structures, that you might incorporate into your understanding whenever you are led to contemplate them, if ever.

'Ecclesia,' or 'those who were called to come out.'
Jesus Zygote—Jesus Human
(um, "corpus of the NT" in there too, @amadeus
although you might wanna start with something a bit less...freaky, lol)
Strong's Greek: 1577. ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation
i mean, wadr i don't see a single ref to a building, even in the corrupted Strong's?

 

[bbyrd009]

But this chapter describes a place that they came together at.

we are together right now, you and i; what place would have sufficed to describe where we are right now 2 millenia ago?
"in the air" is the only one that seems to work

 

[FHII]

i could do that for the rest of the day; you are building...well, something, right, on a foundation, either sand or stone, and etc.

I am sure you could, but it doesn't mean you are right.

You are called to seek your own salvation.

We are to seek out our pwn salvation with fear and trembling. Philip 2:12. But do you really want to explore that in depth? Because you will find it requires a preacher.

. You are called a priest of a temple

Really? Were?

Literal gathering places are inferred for those who read the Book as a literal history, until they learn outside the camp and scapegoats i guess.

I am not going on your "guess". Nothing in this quote disproves the obvious conclusion that Paul was speaking of a literal place. I believe in spiritual meanings of literal places, but they begin with literal places.

Literal churches pretty much all involve building towers

Yet there was a literal tabernacle in the wilderness. The was a literal Solomon's temple. Jesus taught in literal temples.

And God was there in those literal places.

 

[bbyrd009]

Wrong. 1 cor 11 still referred to the Church as a place and contrasted the Church with houses.

ok, go with that then, but understand how you would perceive that differently if you had not been got hold of by someone already in the building at a formative stage for you, ok. Iow try on the other perspectives, and mostly pay attention to the resistance you have to trying them on, i guess. Church can meet in buildings, certainly, i would not deny that they could. But the building could burn down, and the Church would still be there, see.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am sure you could, but it doesn't mean you are right.

mos def, i may not be right at all, not trying to win any court cases here ok. If the perspective bears no fruit, toss it!
but if you cannot attain the perspective at all, even for purposes of reflection, then understand how expectations can play a part in forming premises.

 

[FHII]

This is an honest question - do you guys think think that house churches are more susceptible to heresy/corruption than larege churches? Or is it the same risk, but perhaps different forms?

I don't have an answer for that Aspen. Wish I did. But I suspect both have a danger. Large Churches are susceptible to public opinion. Go against it and it wont stay large for long. Small Churches -- including house Churches-- can be limiting and cultish (in a bad way).

 

[bbyrd009]

We are to seek out our pwn salvation with fear and trembling. Philip 2:12. But do you really want to explore that in depth? Because you will find it requires a preacher.

Paul didn't seem to think so; for three whole years, no less.