How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Episkopos]

Meaning what?

His sins no longer count against him tomorrow?

You do understand the premise, right? Luther said that we can sin boldly because in that scheme NO amount of our sins can quench His grace. So basically sin is no longer counted against us ...God only sees Jesus. He can't see Christian sinners. Our sins are no longer sinful because He did it ALL. He paid for ALL our sins. It is finished. He knew exactly how many sins we would commit and paid it all in advance. There is NO need to grow and improve or any such thing. No need to fear ---no need to be humble. We can boast of the snow covering that covers up all the stench of our sins. That is the genius idea that Luther had as a contribution to the Great Delusion within Christianity.

And they all said amen!

And then the judgment came.

PS. Luther wrote a letter on August 1, 1521 stating "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are in this world we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:13). It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day (cited in Hendrix, Martin Luther, 121-122).

 

[marks]

You do understand the premise, right? Luther said that we can sin boldly because in that scheme NO amount of our sins can quench His grace. So basically sin is no longer counted against us ...God only sees Jesus. He can't see Christian sinners. Our sins are no longer sinful because He did it ALL. He paid for ALL our sins. He knew exactly how many sins we would commit and paid it all in advance. There is NO need to grow and improve or any such thing. No need to fear no need to be humble. We can boast of the snow covering that covers up all the stench of our sins. That is the genius idea that Luther had as a contribution to the Great Delusion within Christianity.

And they all said amen!

And then the judgment came.

You seem to be picking up on my exchange with Michiah-Imla, just for clarity's sake, this description of belief has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe or teach.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

You seem to be picking up on my exchange with Michiah-Imla, just for clarity's sake, this description of belief has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe or teach.

Much love!

You are no longer Protestant? Most here would think that I finally understood the gospel...according to Luther, that is.

Doesn't grace abound in order to cover your abundant sin? Please explain how your view has changed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes they do. But God visiting us with a gift of initial grace is not the same as going to where He is to get the full measure. God wants to be in relationship with us. For that we need to go to Him. ALL who are of faith recognize that.

Many verses show the idea of “more grace/power.”
Elisha got a double portion.
God gave the Spirit without measure to Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Many verses show the idea of “more grace/power.”
Elisha got a double portion.
God gave the Spirit without measure to Jesus.

There is literally no end to religious presumptions and assumptions.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The term "reckon" is better understood as "believe" or "take to heart."

I like Webster’s definition:

“To esteem; to account; to repute. Rom 8.”

 

[marks]

You are no longer Protestant? Most here would think that I finally understood the gospel...according to Luther, that is.
Doesn't grace abound in order to cover your abundant sin? Please explain how your view has changed.

You've some assumptions built into there. Have you understood the gospel according to Luther? I can't say, I don't know! I've heard some things that are attributed to Luther, but I've never read him myself.

So if you are asking me, how has my view changed from Lutheranism, or however you say, I wouldn't know how to answer you. But speaking Biblically, no, I can't think of any place that calls grace to be a cover for sin.

Sacrifice, in the Covenant of the Law, covered sin. In Christ, sin is removed. Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is literally no end to religious presumptions and assumptions.

True. And I’m trying to work on how to not mention anyone’s posts so they can hear truth without feeling singled out or backed into a corner and threatened or “losing face” to a woman they want to be silent. Just the fact that they hear it is sufficient.

 

[Episkopos]

You've a lot of assumptions built into there. Have you understood the gospel according to Luther? I can't say, I don't know! I've heard some things that are attributed to Luther, but I've never read him myself.

So if you are asking me, how has my view changed from Lutheranism, or however you say, I wouldn't know how to answer you. But speaking Biblically, no, I can't think of any place that calls grace to be a cover for sin.

Sacrifice, in the Covenant of the Law, covered sin. In Christ, sin is removed. Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world.

Much love!

I noticed you said..."sin is removed"...could you explain how that is accomplished?

I know EG says that the penalty for sin is paid. That follows Luther. Are you saying something different?

 

[ChristisGod]

There is literally no end to religious presumptions and assumptions.

Are you saying you have no presumptions or assumptions?

 

[marks]

I noticed you said..."sin is removed"...could you explain how that is accomplished?

John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Is this what He did?

Hebrews 10:11-18 KJV
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Here, remission in the sense of,

ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

G683 . . .

ἀφίημι
aphiēmi
af-ee'-ay-mee
From G575 and ἵημι hiēmi (to send; an intensive form of εἶμι eimi (to go)); to send forth, in various applications: - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

The animal sacrifices could never take away sins. Jesus made one sacrifice, and after that, there is no more sacrifice. His was the final sacrifice for sin. Where there is a sending away of these (sins), there is no more offering for sin.

And this leads us back to Romans 6, among other passages, which teach how we are able to share in this. To join Him in His death, be buried with Him, to walk in newness of life.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Are you saying you have no presumptions or assumptions?

Are you saying that the fish you are holding is not a photo-shopped minnow?

I am very careful to investigate...using scepticism...until God shows me what something means. Whether by visitation, vision...I'm careful to say only in what I KNOW to be true

others here use a religious speculation. But I started my walk in Zion....

God showed me things that words cannot exlain. But the bible is clear. Let's use the word.

 

[marks]

But the bible is clear. Let's use the word.

1000% agreed! IF the Bible says it, receive it. If the Bible doesn't, well . . . it just doesn't.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Is this what He did?

Hebrews 10:11-18 KJV
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Here, remission in the sense of,

ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

G683 . . .

ἀφίημι
aphiēmi
af-ee'-ay-mee
From G575 and ἵημι hiēmi (to send; an intensive form of εἶμι eimi (to go)); to send forth, in various applications: - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

The animal sacrifices could never take away sins. Jesus made one sacrifice, and after that, there is no more sacrifice. His was the final sacrifice for sin. Where there is a sending away of these (sins), there is no more offering for sin.

And this leads us back to Romans 6, among other passages, which teach how we are able to share in this. To join Him in His death, be buried with Him, to walk in newness of life.

Much love!

I don't know why you think I never read the bible before. But I ask you again...

How is sin removed? Is it the penalty for sin that is removed? Or does crucifixion kill ALL sin with its power....to make one pure and without sin? In Him is NO sin.

Do you claim that your reckoning extends to being perfect in Christ...to walk ever as He walked?

or is there another scheme you are hiding here? Do tell?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't know why you think I never read the bible before. But I ask you again...

How is sin removed? Is t the penalty that is removed? Or does crucifixion kill ALL sin with its power....to make one pure and without sin?

Do you claim that your reckoning extends to being perfect in Christ...to walk ever as He walked?

or is there another scheme you are hiding here? Do tell?

I think it’s the penalty first removed in that verse, which penalty is, “the soul that sins will die.” Once that fear of death is removed and there is peace with God, we can move on to the next thing. I don’t know how people cram jam it all together and it does keep one from moving on. They get stuck in some developmental stage within Romans I guess?

When they put the blood on their doorposts, the avenging Angel passed them over. It didn’t mean they were holy and without sin. It meant they wouldnt die.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I also think we at first don’t have a proper fear of God, just as a child doesn’t fear his father until that first paddle once the father determines it’s time for his child to move on. That first fear is the BEGINNING of wisdom, the beginning of learning what his father approves of and does not, the beginning of learning obedience.

Being sent to your room, having your fathers back turned to you, not being “accepted” because of behavior that isn’t right in his fathers eyes is a powerful tool for a father. It creates a healthy fear. And being told, it’s okay, if you do what I say is right, you can come out of your room, I will accept you, is another powerful tool.

That example doesn’t go into how we realize we need more grace but…it is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[marks]

I don't know why you think I never read the bible before.

I don't know why you would think that I think this. You've asked me a question, I've given you a reply.

But if you are going to be making this about me, or putting words into my mouth, this won't be as fruitful.

How is sin removed?

This was your question at first, and before we continue I want to ask you whether or not you agree these are the true sayings of the passages I've quoted, in what I've written of them. Do you?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think it’s the penalty first removed in that verse, which penalty is, “the soul that sins will die.” Once that fear of death is removed and there is peace with God, we can move on to the next thing. I don’t know how people cram jam it all together and it does keep one from moving on. They get stuck in some developmental stage within Romans I guess?

When they put the blood on their doorposts, the avenging Angel passed them over. It didn’t mean they were holy and without sin. It meant they wouldnt die.

Is the above religious guessing? I think I see it all in Gods word but I’m always adjusting as I learn, so tell me if it is.
If we sin and then turn back, we have a mediator, we have “if we confess, He is faithful to forgive.” We have Him being patient and long suffering. We have so much that the deck is stacked in our favor and no scheming is necessary.

 

[APAK]

Hello to all. I think it important to understand the context of everything we read about in the bible. It's too easy to misunderstand and jump to false conclusions based on an unbalanced and unlearned assumption, unless we look as deeply as possible into how it fits into the ways of God.

On this thread, I would like to look at how are are to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin....using the OT, and NT...and hopefully with some testimonials.

Any post that is not applicable to the subject matter I will respond with a "Stay on Topic" comment.

Now in Romans 6:11 we read...

" Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Is this a kind of magic formula that one must accept as being life-giving in itself? As in...fake it till you make it?

I think the last thing that God wants is for people to accept the bible anecdotally....religiously.... There is no need or desire for that.

We need to go to the OT to see where the pattern of God's ways based on reckoning can be consulted for greater clarity in the present circumstance. With the next verse we see a call to spiritual militancy.

Joel 3:10 "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

James continues with this theme...

James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

V. 10 is very telling and apropos for we who live in the rich Western countries. Especially seeing that sound doctrine is seen by many as being so hostile (to the flesh).


We see with this, the "make the way straight in the desert for our God" from Is. 40.....filling in the valleys and making the mountains low. I would say that the major problem we have is the exaltation of the flesh rather than the rejoicing at being made low. It is the council of James in reverse for many of us.

So we, in our estimation, need to see our default setting as considering sin, and the lifestyle associated with it, as being dead to us. Does that mean we can claim to be without sin by a mere reckoning? We can only reckon with our mind. Our reckoning helps to line up our way of thinking with the direction we are hoping to go in. Only God can rescue us from the power of the flesh.

We can indeed ALWAYS triumph over the flesh..but that takes the power of the cross and walking in the Spirit. Reckoning ourselves to be dead to sin is akin to carrying our own cross...not being crucified on the cross of Christ. That is at a whole other level and at a depth that very few will be able to comprehend let alone experience.

Yes, Romans 6:11 is one scripture that speaks to the death of our sins, and then through our active faith we know and sense we are truly dead to our sins and have the power to control its existence in our lives. We are alive in the Spirit of God in Christ (his spirit) by faith, and no more under the power of the Law and its power to cause and promote the pleasures of sin in our flesh as it used to overwhelm us, and support a life style of the spiritually dead, one of the lost spirits of this world.

It is of the power of Christ's work on the Cross as part of his grace, and ultimately by the power of God's grace, in sacrificial love for us. We have true spiritual freedom although at a cost of living a spiritual life that the world and the unbeliever cannot understand or even despises. We now live for Christ, in his spiritual body, died to sin with him, and raised to everlasting life, every day we live on this earth. We become daily sin killers and we understand this battle is real within our flesh! And over time we notice we are actually winning this battle...

And we believe by faith that we are truly reckoned as dead to our sins by living for this sinless perfection for God as a maturing believer in Christ. And this can be termed as 'Carrying our own Cross' indeed.

And the proof that we exhibit in our lives that convinces us we are now indeed in Christ and dead to sin, is by our daily lives and walk in this Christ work of his Cross, as we carry 'our cross,' and we exhibit fruits of the Spirit with a real bias and hate for sin, and find it more despicable, vulgar, and even boring and unsatisfying in and for our lives. We know that we are in Christ and live for him as a member of his Body of saints...

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know why you would think that I think this. You've asked me a question, I've given you a reply.

But if you are going to be making this about me, or putting words into my mouth, this won't be as fruitful.


This was your question at first, and before we continue I want to ask you whether or not you agree these are the true sayings of the passages I've quoted, in what I've written of them. Do you?

Much love!

A lot of needless smoke and mirrors there Mark. I'm asking you what you think it means. If you don't know then say so...

I know the bible speaks the truth. I don't think very many people actually know what Paul is talking about.

So how is sin removed?