How can any of you stand it

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ButterflyJones

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Exactly....free will meant that the choice to access the TKGE was there, but out of all the trees in the garden, this one did not belong to the humans....God claimed that one tree as his own property. To steal that fruit was to steal from their Sovereign, which incurred the death penalty. To steal from the Creator was an act of gross disrespect and he had every right to demand their death....but because sin had entered into the pair before they had their children....it was passed on as an awful inheritance....like a terminal, genetically transmitted disease. (Rom 5:12)

Because all that stood in the way of an everlasting idyllic existence in paradise, was their respect and obedience towards their Creator.
No one forced them to eat.....but self-interest got in the way...and the rest as they say...is history. The woman ate because she was deceived, but Adam wasn't.....he knew that joining his wife in disobedience meant death. We know that satan's favorite tactic is 'divide and conquer'....he did both in Eden, and left God to rescue their children, born in sin through no fault on their part....which is why Jesus came to die for us.

If they had just obeyed the command, we would never have known what an evil thing was and the devil would have been dealt with accordingly behind the scenes.

If you know the penalty for the action before you commit the crime.....you have no excuse to whine about it being enacted.
You fail to understand that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong, good and evil.

That tree wasn't exclusively God's. God planted it in the middle of the garden he created and then placed the first humans in.

We know Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong so to make a choice to obey or disobey because they possessed the capacity to weigh the consequences.

How?

It was only after they ate of the tree that they were able to feel shame for being naked. It was only after eating of the tree that Adam had the capacity to know he'd done wrong in eating of it, because he lied to God and blamed Eve for his having eaten the fruit.
God said Adam and Eve had become like one of them, after eating of the tree, knowing good and evil.

They did not know this prior.

You know, there's a lot of talk about God and the denial of those scriptures that refer to his predestination of all things. One argument in the denial claims God didn't create us to be robots.

Had Adam and Eve not eaten of the tree God planted and then for it be touched, they would have been exactly that. Without knowledge of the world they inhabited. Infantile. Innocent.
But for God preplanning the loss of that innocence by planting the tree in the center of the garden Omniscient God created and judged good.

And along comes a serpent that knew about that tree and God's ultimatum.

How?

How would a serpent know God's command to Adam?

Isaiah 45:7-9

God tells us, he is the darkness and the light, the evil and the good. He is all things.

Some say God is not the author of sin.

Sin is violating what God ordained as his law, his will. It is God who sets the parameters. Law, obedience. The consequences for lawlessness by God's decree is sin.
And God sets the consequences for sin.

So when you attempt to put the blame entirely on Adam and Eve, you're wrong.
All things are as God plans.

Humans can exercise their choices. But God says he determines our lives.

Humans will does not supercede God's.
 

Apache1

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Forget sin. What about compassion for humanity. We deserve better than to be stuck in this pathetic prison planet because a whiny fallen angel got a silly idea in his head about wanting to be God
 

VictoryinJesus

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An all powerful God could easily find some other way of giving his creations a choice

Certainly a better one than billions of us being stuck in these bodies and limited circle of "life" with so many options that have nothing to do with a "conflict" (or whatever you want to call it) between God and Satan

After all, what do politics, games, movies, sports, etc have to do with said "conflict"

Why not just keep all of us in the spiritual realm and ask each one of us if we want to follow God, Satan or don't care.

Basically, what are we supposed to do/learn here that we can't do anywhere else in existence?
All good questions. (Imo) To me it is not wrong of you to ask hard questions. You may get an eye-roll of how dare you ask such ridiculous things. I don’t have any answers for you. Only encourage you to keep asking questions. I know I’ve asked God some stupid questions before…getting angry or frustrated or shouting “why!” I’ve even shouted at Him while alone doing house chores “you said it is for the ignorant and those who can’t understand…well that is me!” To me it is more ridiculous to have outrageous questions you want to ask, and assume God doesn’t already know you have those questions …so why not verbalize them out loud? Ask Him is my only advice. Maybe he will help you settle or resolve some of your questions where they are removed from your mind…not just shunned or sneered at.
 
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Apache1

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Yeah I don't know about that

He unleashed Satan upon me for the heinous crime of taking care of my parents dog for 10 years, dealing with his non stop barking and missing out on any chance of finding the love of my life because I had to look after him

This is exactly the problem with the stupid concept of sin. For example you're not going to find anyone stuck indoors so you have to go to a place where people meet to find someone and of course the number one choice is a bar
 

VictoryinJesus

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Forget sin. What about compassion for humanity. We deserve better than to be stuck in this pathetic prison planet because a whiny fallen angel got a silly idea in his head about wanting to be God
What I’m beginning to see is God has more compassion than I’d ever been told. I use to hear Jesus was for equality and how He loved women also…but I could not see this but instead thought of God as a sexiest dictator slinging His gavel down and pointing at me …”you menstruating woman go to hell!! You unclean fifth! What use are you for?” I use to ask the question (mine different from your questions) why does God hate women so much? Hearing with distain “the weaker vessel!” “You are nothing more than cattle.” I ran from God and anything to do with Him because why be held by a God who despises what He created? Did I choose to be female? But the answers to my questions have been answered for me and I am grateful because I was wrong.
 
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Apache1

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What I’m beginning to see is God has more compassion than I’d ever been told. I use to hear Jesus was for equality and how He loved women also…but I could not see this but instead thought of God as a sexiest dictator slinging His gavel down and pointing at me …”you menstruating woman go to hell!! You unclean fifth! What use are you for?” I use to ask the question (mine different from your questions) why does God hate women so much? Hearing with distain “the weaker vessel!” “You are nothing more than cattle.” I ran from God and anything to do with Him because why be held by a God who despises what He created? Did I choose to be female? But the answers to my questions have been answered for me and I am grateful because I was wrong.
The way I see it, this world is a MMORPG. So yes you chose to be female and you chose your birth parents so you and them could learn certain lessons
 

VictoryinJesus

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The way I see it, this world is a MMORPG. So yes you chose to be female and you chose your birth parents so you and them could learn certain lessons
Then as mentioned earlier did Hitler choose to be Hitler …so him and the Jews could learn certain lessons?
 

ButterflyJones

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What I’m beginning to see is God has more compassion than I’d ever been told. I use to hear Jesus was for equality and how He loved women also…but I could not see this but instead thought of God as a sexiest dictator slinging His gavel down and pointing at me …”you menstruating woman go to hell!! You unclean fifth! What use are you for?” I use to ask the question (mine different from your questions) why does God hate women so much? Hearing with distain “the weaker vessel!” “You are nothing more than cattle.” I ran from God and anything to do with Him because why be held by a God who despises what He created? Did I choose to be female? But the answers to my questions have been answered for me and I am grateful because I was wrong.
God made woman to bring life and sustain life from her own body. Nothing weak about that.

By one man sin entered the world.

When called to answer for that Adam denied responsibility for failing to lead the woman from the serpent's temptation. Instead he blamed Eve for his weakness.

Who then was the weaker vessel in the face of God?
Adam.

God doesn't see women as inferior. Jesus exampled gender equality when women were among his disciples. As did Paul who had women 'pastor' with him.

A woman discovered the empty tomb. And the men followed her lead to see for themselves.

To this day, Judaism passes through the female lineage.

Only weak men denigrate the strength of females.

God is not a man....:D
 

Apache1

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Then as mentioned earlier did Hitler choose to be Hitler …so him and the Jews could learn certain lessons?

You'd have to ask God. Ultimately it's all part of the movie we agreed on between "good" and "evil". Some of us play the "evil" roles. Imagine if you were still in the spirit realm and you were asked to be the person known as Hitler.

Personally however I believe two things

The Jews needed to leave Europe and return to Israel. Unfortunately anti Semitism and an unwillingness on the part of the Jews to leave was preventing that. So the Holocaust removed both issues. Is it justifiable. No but then unfortunately that's how this world operates. We learn to be good through experiencing evil.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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You'd have to ask God. Ultimately it's all part of the movie we agreed on between "good" and "evil". Some of us play the "evil" roles. Imagine if you were still in the spirit realm and you were asked to be the person known as Hitler.

Personally however I believe two things

The Jews needed to leave Europe and return to Israel. Unfortunately anti Semitism and an unwillingness on the part of the Jews to leave was preventing that. So the Holocaust removed both issues. Is it justifiable. No but then unfortunately that's how this world operates. We learn to be good through experiencing evil.
Same as Judas. Who would choose to be Judas?

I see it a different as all are evil and what God choose as Good is the vessel of Mercy which is the New birth given of Him. In that sense He (to me) has already chosen that “you must be born Anew of God.” That this is the chosen vessel (Mercy)…not the vessel of destruction and death. Imo) Saul was a vessel of destruction …Paul a vessel of Mercy…so if asked prior did any have a choice to be born of flesh first? As in….However that which is born first is flesh? so asked if you want to be a Hitler or a Judas… isn’t all sin the same? From destroying your friends and family with lies, manipulating and hatred to Hitler destroying the Jews? Or Judas betraying Jesus …-all out from a vessel of destruction and death.
 

VictoryinJesus

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God made woman to bring life and sustain life from her own body. Nothing weak about that.

By one man sin entered the world.

When called to answer for that Adam denied responsibility for failing to lead the woman from the serpent's temptation. Instead he blamed Eve for his weakness.

Who then was the weaker vessel in the face of God?
Adam.

God doesn't see women as inferior. Jesus exampled gender equality when women were among his disciples. As did Paul who had women 'pastor' with him.

A woman discovered the empty tomb. And the men followed her lead to see for themselves.

To this day, Judaism passes through the female lineage.

Only weak men denigrate the strength of females.

God is not a man....:D
It was this verse
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

What changed if for me was reading
2 Corinthians 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [10] Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

After when I would hear being a weaker vessel was God’s hatred towards the weaker vessel…I remembered His reply to Paul telling him “my strength is made perfect in weakness.”
 

Apache1

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I don't agree that billions can be considered evil because of an incident we had nothing to do with

The way I see it we are all innocent victims and need to be let out

Sin? Who cares. Abolish it already. There is no intelligence, justice or compassion in having billions suffer and die because a whiny fallen angel threw a tantrum
 

VictoryinJesus

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I don't agree that billions can be considered evil because of an incident we had nothing to do with

The way I see it we are all innocent victims and need to be let out

Sin? Who cares. Abolish it already. There is no intelligence, justice or compassion in having billions suffer and die because a whiny fallen angel threw a tantrum
Innocent? Isn’t every one influenced by sin? Regardless if it started with the first temper tantrum ever thrown…If we throw a temper tantrum then how are we innocent or disconnected from the first temper tantrum…but instead modeling it!
I can’t remember the first tiny thing planted in my head but things were planted and out of those things planted now 54…I can tell you I’m not innocent but was greatly influenced by my desires and passions and lust of wanting and craving certain things and been known to throw a temper tantrum. Ask some people close to me and they wouldn’t tell you I am innocent. That it is not all a fallen angels fault and that I have had no part in destruction. Sorry that is an out from …as not having any part in the destruction. Innocent.
 
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Apache1

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Innocent? Isn’t every one influenced by sin? Regardless if it started with a temper tantrum ever thrown…but instead modeling it! If we throw a temper tantrum then how are we innocent or disconnected from the first temper tantrum? I can’t remember the first tiny thing planted in my head but things were planted and out of those things planted now 54…I can tell you I’m not innocent but was greatly influenced by my desires and passions and lust of wanting and craving certain things and been known to throw a temper tantrum. Ask some people close to me and they wouldn’t tell you I am innocent. That is is all a fallen angels fault and I have had no part in destruction.
Why care so much about sin/lust/desires/passions/judging ourselves/others as guilty/evil

Christians have been doing that for centuries and what has it achieved

Is it not time for a different approach of asking/demanding that humanity be released from this world
 

VictoryinJesus

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Why care so much about sin/lust/desires/passions/judging ourselves/others as guilty/evil

Christians have been doing that for centuries and what has it achieved

Is it not time for a different approach of asking/demanding that humanity be released from this world
He tells how it is released.
 

Stumpmaster

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Again, why should billions of us have to go through this because of one whiny fallen angel. If you want billions to love you, you don't put them in sick bodies and a limited circle of life to suffer and die with the threat of a second death or hell hanging over their heads
Rom 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

Good News.

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. (29) For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
 

Stumpmaster

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Am I being unreasonable in saying that if God allows someone to be put hrough supernatural death threats, being told they are going to hell, being accused of blaspheming the Holy Spirit etc he should either take that persons soul or heal them completely and take away any memory they have of such things
Anxiety is not king. It cannot rule unless it is allowed to.

Php 4:6-9 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. (7) And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (8) Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think on these things. (9) Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me, put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
 
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Aunty Jane

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You fail to understand that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong, good and evil.
I don’t believe that the TKGE indicated that humans did not know good and evil, but rather that it indicated that it was not given to them to decide good from evil for themselves. When we look at human behavior, we see exactly that....humans can justify “evil” and turn it into something “good”. Relying on God to make those decisions would have kept evil out of their lives completely.

In all creation there are equal opposites that we take for granted and that factor into our lives every day...up, down...in, out....for, against...with, without....this way, or that way....black, white...negative, positive.....some are of minor consequence, but some have major outcomes, impacting in a big way. Now imagine the magnitude of God's goodness, compared to its equal opposite? We don't have to imagine it...we are living it, because of the choices made by three disobedient individuals at the beginning of our history. These individuals could not be told so the only way to demonstrate the value of obedience to our Creator was to SHOW both angels and mankind, what happens when we ignore his guidance and direction.

If God was to decide what is good and what is evil, then free will would never be abused. Obedience was the key to everlasting life. They knew that God required their obedience, and they knew what death was, because they had been around long enough to see other creatures die. For them, they recognized clearly that death is the opposite to life....that is what God told Adam....he wasn’t going anywhere else if he died, he was simply returning to the dust out of he was created. (Gen 3:19)

Who wanted humans to believe that “you surely will not die”? It wasn’t God.
That tree wasn't exclusively God's.
All of the trees in the garden, and all the green vegetation were given to God’s creatures for food.....only one tree was off limits to humans under penalty of death. What that tree represented was God’s Sovereign right to dictate the terms of their existence. It created no hardship for them whatsoever. Refraining from eating the fruit of that one tree was respecting God’s Sovereignty over them and showing appreciation for all the other wonderful provisions he had made for them.

If the devil had not lied to the woman, Adam would not have had his loyalty divided.
God planted it in the middle of the garden he created and then placed the first humans in.

We know Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong so to make a choice to obey or disobey because they possessed the capacity to weigh the consequences.
You think God would not have educated the man before he gave him a mate? Look what Adam was doing before Eve was created....he was to name all the creatures that shared life with them. How long would it have taken to do that? He would have observed them and decided on an appropriate name for each one, reflecting their traits or characteristics....not something he could have done in a single day.
It was only after they ate of the tree that they were able to feel shame for being naked. It was only after eating of the tree that Adam had the capacity to know he'd done wrong in eating of it, because he lied to God and blamed Eve for his having eaten the fruit.
God said Adam and Eve had become like one of them, after eating of the tree, knowing good and evil.
Yes, shame was their first indication that something serious had changed in their perception of life.
It wasn’t that they didn’t know it was bad to disobey God, it was that ‘someone’ told the woman that 'bad' was 'good', and she did not rely on God to correct what the serpent had told her. Adam then had a dilemma when she offered the fruit to him......he was not deceived like his wife, but now his loyalties were divided.....he had to make a choice...and he chose loyalty to her over loyalty to his God.
You know, there's a lot of talk about God and the denial of those scriptures that refer to his predestination of all things. One argument in the denial claims God didn't create us to be robots.
That cannot be argued. There was no predestination of what took place, otherwise God is responsible for the fall, and all the tragedy and damage that has resulted from it. What kind of loving God would plan such a thing?
Free will does not allow for predestination. What was predestined was God’s purpose...to have a beautiful planet inhabited by free willed creatures, made in his own image and likeness, who would take care of everything he created in perpetuation.....the planet, it’s creatures and each other...forever. But free will is not “free” without choices. God did not create humans to be “robots” otherwise what happened in Eden would never have taken place.
 
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