How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[dhh712]

No He does not believe or repent for us.

But He gives us the faith to believe, and also the power and desire to repent. Otherwise no human would repent ever if the Word of God is true.

Exactly. Unless God gives us eyes to see Him, we would never turn to him. Once God reveals himself to us, he is irresistible to those who meet him. Like I said, why God passes over some, why he doesn't give everyone the ability to see him, I do not know. That is something he doesn't explain and we will never know here.

 

[Marine0311]

How can anyone be in favor of a nonsensical gospel? Now all those who have tried to support it have not been able to come up with one VALID interpretation which contradicts John 3:14-17.

How can anyone be in favor of a nonsensical gospel? Now all those who have tried to support it have not been able to come up with one VALID interpretation which contradicts John 3:14-17.

Exactly. Unless God gives us eyes to see Him, we would never turn to him. Once God reveals himself to us, he is irresistible to those who meet him. Like I said, why God passes over some, why he doesn't give everyone the ability to see him, I do not know. That is something he doesn't explain and we will never know here.

Jesus explained why the unsaved remain unsaved, and it wasn’t God’s decision it was theirs.
Jhn 3:17 - For God sent nothis Son into the world tocondemn the world; but thatthe world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begottenSon of God.
Jhn 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deedswere evil.

 

[Marine0311]

[Ephesians 1:3-6]

3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

So is Ephesians 1 true or false?
Do you believe that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ chose YOU in Him before the foundation of the world?

You are accusing every Calvinist that you have ever spoke with of having read and believed the Bible.
Is that something you really want them to be ashamed of?

. If what you said was true the answer would be no of course , but since Calvinism has changed the gospel taught by Jesus and the apostles the answer is yes.

 

[Enoch111]

Like I said, why God passes over some, why he doesn't give everyone the ability to see him, I do not know. That is something he doesn't explain and we will never know here.

God DOES NOT pass over anyone. That is Calvinistic nonsense.

Jesus said that the Gospel must be preached in all the world and to every creature. Which means that God desires the salvation of absolutely everyone, and it is the Gospel which is "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom 1:16). Not all will obey the Gospel, but salvation is for all mankind and that is crystal clear from numerous passages.

He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. (Ps 98:3)

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10)

If people want to be totally honest, they must admit that since Calvinism contradicts the true Gospel, the one who is behind that false gospel is Satan.

 

[Enoch111]

No one ever answered my question about John, and why does he seem to write about a place for unbelievers outside the kingdom of heavenly Jerusalem, and those who are going inside??

Well that is rather straightforward. Only the children of God will be in the heavenly Jerusalem. All others will be in the Lake of Fire. But take note that God did not choose for them to be there. That was their own choice and their own decision. See John 3:36. God elects no one for either salvation or damnation, since He offers salvation to all mankind.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Exactly. Unless God gives us eyes to see Him, we would never turn to him. Once God reveals himself to us, he is irresistible to those who meet him. Like I said, why God passes over some, why he doesn't give everyone the ability to see him, I do not know. That is something he doesn't explain and we will never know here.

Like Jesus said in JOhn:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Hard words for human sentiments to bear, but Jesus was filled with hard words.

 

[atpollard]

. If what you said was true the answer would be no of course , but since Calvinism has changed the gospel taught by Jesus and the apostles the answer is yes.

What does Calvinism teach that is false?
Please be specific if you are going to tell me that reading the Bible has led me to a false gospel.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God DOES NOT pass over anyone. That is Calvinistic nonsense.

Jesus said that the Gospel must be preached in all the world and to every creature. Which means that God desires the salvation of absolutely everyone, and it is the Gospel which is "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom 1:16). Not all will obey the Gospel, but salvation is for all mankind and that is crystal clear from numerous passages.

He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. (Ps 98:3)

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10)

If people want to be totally honest, they must admit that since Calvinism contradicts the true Gospel, the one who is behind that false gospel is Satan.

Sadly Enoch- you misquote that gospel to every creature! That passage is found in MAtt. 24 and the gospel of the kingdom is preached as a witness against everyone! Not an invitation to be saved.

God knows that past present and futrure as now! He knows whom will get saved, for He foreordained it! As it says in Ephesians- Teh believer is electr from the foundation of the world!

As for the other passages. They are true! But they are simple statements of fact! If all the ends of the earth looked unto the Lord- they would be saved! It is simply a statement but does not reveal who, how, why, if one will. Those are different issues

Remember the parable of the sower and the four types of ground! Some seed is sown on ground that demons take it right away!

In Timothy it says God knows those who are HIs.

In JOhn He says that His wrath is already abiding on the unbeliever (remember we are His from the foundation of the world)

 

[dhh712]

Like Jesus said in JOhn:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Hard words for human sentiments to bear, but Jesus was filled with hard words.

I know -- I keep saying that both are there. I'm acknowledging the Armenian side where Jesus calls all who are weary to come to him. That whoever comes to him he will in no wise cast out. That it is our choice, that we're not puppets on a string.

But they don't want to acknowledge the clear Calvinist articles in God's word: No one can come to me unless the Father draws him. In passing over people, that simply means that God didn't open their heart. As he opens men's hearts to believe, as it is clear that not all believe, therefore he doesn't open some people's hearts.

I wish he'd open everyone's hearts, but it just isn't scriptural. In opening hearts, that is revealed in God's word in the conversion of Lydia where God reveals that he opened her heart so that she believed: "The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul..." (Acts 16:14). Note she didn't open her own heart; nonetheless *she* did respond to the word. God didn't control her like an automaton. It's 100% God and 100% man.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I know -- I keep saying that both are there. I'm acknowledging the Armenian side where Jesus calls all who are weary to come to him. That whoever comes to him he will in no wise cast out. That it is our choice, that we're not puppets on a string.

But they don't want to acknowledge the clear Calvinist articles in God's word: No one can come to me unless the Father draws him. In passing over people, that simply means that God didn't open their heart. As he opens men's hearts to believe, as it is clear that not all believe, therefore he doesn't open some people's hearts.

I wish he'd open everyone's hearts, but it just isn't scriptural. In opening hearts, that is revealed in God's word in the conversion of Lydia where God reveals that he opened her heart so that she believed: "The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul..." (Acts 16:14). Note she didn't open her own heart; nonetheless *she* did respond to the word. God didn't control her like an automaton. It's 100% God and 100% man.

Well even our coming to HIm is at the power of the Father drawing us to Him. It is a perfect circle.

1. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them
2. All that are drawn will come to Jesus.
3. Jesus will not cast one of them out!

 

[dhh712]

Well even our coming to HIm is at the power of the Father drawing us to Him. It is a perfect circle.

1. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them
2. All that are drawn will come to Jesus.
3. Jesus will not cast one of them out!

Exactly. All those who do come to Jesus are those whom the Father has drawn. It looks like our choice and it sure is, but we wouldn't have been able to make it unless God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Marine0311]

What does Calvinism teach that is false?
Please be specific if you are going to tell me that reading the Bible has led me to a false gospel.

. Calvinism teaches the saved were elected to salvation before God created the heavens and the earth , and those not elected are destined by God’s will and predetermination to eternal hell. Both contradict scripture and the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught.
Rom 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 - How thenshall they call on him in whomthey have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 - And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. ForEsails saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 

[Enoch111]

Sadly Enoch- you misquote that gospel to every creature! That passage is found in MAtt. 24 and the gospel of the kingdom is preached as a witness against everyone! Not an invitation to be saved.

Well as a matter of fact the Gospel is an invitation to every creature (every human being) to be saved -- to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And here is where it begins:

THE WORDS OF CHRIST
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mt 28:18-20)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

THE WORDS OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

THE WORDS OF THE APOSTLE JOHN
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 Jn 3:23)

So if the Gospel is to be preached (a) to all nations (b) in all the world, (c) to every creature and (d) all men are commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
it means that CALVINISM IS A LIE FROM THE DEVIL!

 

[Enoch111]

1. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them

The thorny issue for Calvinists is this "DOES GOD THE FATHER DRAW ALL MEN TO CHRIST?" And the answer is a resounding "YES".

If the Son and the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ (and there is no doubt that this is so, since Jesus Himself affirms that) then why would the Father not draw all men to Christ?

What do the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit say in Isaiah 45:22?
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Therefore we have these words of Christ: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

And therefore we have these words of the Holy Spirit: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

 

[Grailhunter]

Keeping things in perspective, I have Calvinist friends, I have met some great and devoted Calvinists that love God. So this is strictly a failure to understand the Word of God and the Spirit of Christ and Christianity. Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses there are some good Jehovah's Witnesses and I have also met some sweet witches....But in perspective I have a thread about good and sweet people going to Hell. So that is not the context of this debate....It is a sad thing to think of a wonderful family that loves God and are heavily involved with the Church....going to Hell.

The fundamental issue is that Calvinism is a religion of blasphemy against God. And like the Jehovah's Witnesses, they comb the scriptures to prove that God is a monstrous puppet master and we are all puppets. And He leads some to Heaven and some to Hell. And they like it! It is like a religious lottery. What they think, do, believe and where they end up has nothing to do with them....they are being controlled like robots by a sadistic gamer. Robots in Heaven! Eternal control!

Like I have said before it is a wonder that someone has not made a sci-fi movie about the great puppet master. An entity comes to earth and creates humans so He can have His own planetary puppet show. It has nothing to do with right or wrong because He is in control. God is not going to go to Hell for forcing people to murder other people.

And it does effect how they apply Christianity....the whole "God made me do it" thing is used as an excuse for the bad things they do. The justification for sinful lifestyles....the "name it and claim it" crowd, I think comes from the Calvinists and of course the Once Saved Always Saved concept is part of Calvinism. As a whole it stands as blasphemy against God and a seriously flawed theology.

As an heretical belief....that is for sure....but the word heresy has lost most of its meaning because so many are tolerant of heretical beliefs. In the middle ages all you had to do was believe something different than the Church and you could be burnt at the stake. But now a days with so many different denominations....the cat is kinda out of the bag and Christianity is like a can of worms going in all directions, and tolerance rules.

 

[Scott Downey]

. Calvinism teaches the saved were elected to salvation before God created the heavens and the earth , and those not elected are destined by God’s will and predetermination to eternal hell. Both contradict scripture and the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught.
Rom 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 - How thenshall they call on him in whomthey have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 - And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. ForEsails saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

But see you just stop quoting that chapter, missing entirely the message in it.
Keep on reading.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Verse 16 is not to be understood outside of the context of the next but you deliberately left it off to deceive the unwary and try to prove your agenda.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Then you also left out this
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

Both are Calvanist oriented themed proofs.
v16, is true, no one believes our report in their natural state unless God enlightens their mind by making them born again by the Spirit.
v17, SO THEN FAITH comes by hearing. BUT the HEARING is God's gift to those God is saving, 'and hearing by the word of God'

Man shall not live by bread alone, he only lives by the word of God spoken to him so that he has spiritual life

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Romans 10:20, also proves that those who find God were not looking for God or asking for God. God first makes them born again by the Spirit so that they can be taught by the Spirit and believe in Christ.
Yet your religious philosophy demands man do that or he cannot be saved... You're playing the part of a hypocrite against the scriptures by actually attacking them, what they teach.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

ALL of those who come to Christ, The Spirit has been teaching them. In reality the NC works by the Spirit of God putting His laws and into our minds and WRITING THEM UPON OUR HEARTS, so that we know God and Christ. We are not taught by any man to know the LORD Jesus in this NC God has established. When God does this, He is our God, and we His people. This is by His sovereign choice first as the prime mover in our life, not the will of our mind or our flesh.

Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

 

[Scott Downey]

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The phrasing in this 'who were born' indicated it already had occurred as in meaning 'who had been born'. Also the further descriptions pointing to not of the will of their flesh, not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God's will, tells us God had first made them born again, so that they received Him, and they were then formally the children of God.

Same here in 1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

 

[Marine0311]

But see you just stop quoting that chapter, missing entirely the message in it.
Keep on reading.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Verse 16 is not to be understood outside of the context of the next but you deliberately left it off to deceive the unwary and try to prove your agenda.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Then you also left out this
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

Both are Calvanist oriented themed proofs.
v16, is true, no one believes our report in their natural state unless God enlightens their mind by making them born again by the Spirit.
v17, SO THEN FAITH comes by hearing. BUT the HEARING is God's gift to those God is saving, 'and hearing by the word of God'

Man shall not live by bread alone, he only lives by the word of God spoken to him so that he has spiritual life

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Romans 10:20, also proves that those who find God were not looking for God or asking for God. God first makes them born again by the Spirit so that they can be taught by the Spirit and believe in Christ.
Yet your religious philosophy demands man do that or he cannot be saved... You're playing the part of a hypocrite against the scriptures by actually attacking them, what they teach.

. Talking with Calvinist is like talking to Roman Catholics or Jehovah witnesses they make it up as they go. Jesus taught His gospel and Calvinist have changed and perverted His gospel. In John 3:16 Calvinist change the meaning of “world” and “whosoever believeth”/ 1 John 2:2 scripture says Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world which Calvinist change the meaning of “ whole world”. Go re-read Revelation 22:17 which exposes the lies and errors of Calvinism.

Rev 22:17 - And the Spiritand the bride say, Come. Andlet him that heareth say,Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Scott Downey]

. Talking with Calvinist is like talking to Roman Catholics or Jehovah witnesses they make it up as they go. Jesus taught His gospel and Calvinist have changed and perverted His gospel. In John 3:16 Calvinist change the meaning of “world” and “whosoever believeth”/ 1 John 2:2 scripture says Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world which Calvinist change the meaning of “ whole world”. Go re-read Revelation 22:17 which exposes the lies and errors of Calvinism.

Rev 22:17 - And the Spiritand the bride say, Come. Andlet him that heareth say,Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You dont understand do you, that people all over the world can freely come of their own initiative, but that they do not do so unless GOD is prodding them towards Christ as the great shepherd.
You also do not acknowledge the unsaved are all of them following the devil and seeking to do the devil's will, reread Ephesians 2.
They are held captive to the devil in their sin and are blinded in their minds by the devil, read 2 Corinthians 4.

AND He is only the Great Shepherd of the sheep, and all of the sheep God gave to Christ, none of them came on their own, they were the 'lost sheep of Christ' whom He came to seek and save. Each of them had wandered away.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”