How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[Scott Downey]

The lost were not chosen, so they continued to follow the devil just as the scripture says all people do until God makes them live by His Spirit. Of course, they do not receive the love of the truth, they enjoy their sins unless God changes their hearts.

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2 and the children of wrath are all people naturally born.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Scott Downey]

The only truth is in what scripture says, not in what men say.
They disregard the scriptures, and do so continually, as they do not like what the scriptures actually say.

 

[Grailhunter]

The saved were chosen from the beginning to be the saved
2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

I understand the scriptures you are referencing. Calvinism has been debated on the forum for quite awhile. Calvinists and Jehovah's Witnesses huddle together to search the scriptures to conspire against God and Christ. They both strive to use God's Word against God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Exactly. All those who do come to Jesus are those whom the Father has drawn. It looks like our choice and it sure is, but we wouldn't have been able to make it unless God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear.

Human pride and ego die hard! Man in his fallen nature desperately wants to take some credit for choosing Jesus! We can't- to the glory of His boundless majesty and love.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well as a matter of fact the Gospel is an invitation to every creature (every human being) to be saved -- to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And here is where it begins:

THE WORDS OF CHRIST
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mt 28:18-20)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

THE WORDS OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

THE WORDS OF THE APOSTLE JOHN
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 Jn 3:23)

So if the Gospel is to be preached (a) to all nations (b) in all the world, (c) to every creature and (d) all men are commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
it means that CALVINISM IS A LIE FROM THE DEVIL!

Once again you overstate what is be34ing said in these passages.

they are simple statements of fact! Now I am assuming you are railing against predestination of Calvinism (which is biblical). But all these are simple commands. It says nothing about free will or predestination. It does not say how, when where or why a person accepts or rejects the gospel.

We are to preach the gospel to all ethnos. some of our seed will fall on good ground, some on stony ground, soem are weedy ground, and some on the path. That is for God and not us to decide.

And as Paul wrote that when we preach the gospel, to some we will be a savor unto life, and to others a stench of death.

Yes our preaching of the gospel will be to seal the damnation of some people!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The thorny issue for Calvinists is this "DOES GOD THE FATHER DRAW ALL MEN TO CHRIST?" And the answer is a resounding "YES".

If the Son and the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ (and there is no doubt that this is so, since Jesus Himself affirms that) then why would the Father not draw all men to Christ?

What do the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit say in Isaiah 45:22?
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Therefore we have these words of Christ: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

And therefore we have these words of the Holy Spirit: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Once again, these are simple statements of fact!

1 Fact- whoever looks unto teh Lord will be saved.
2. Fact whoever will, they can drink for free!

but this does nothing about free will or predestination, or the who what where when and why of how one looks or how one gets to drink. they are simple statements saying that whoever does A, B will happen, and nothing else.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is a far cry from proclaiming that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.

God elects some to salvation. Others He does not.

Calvin it seems was double-minded. On one hand he said that in John 3:16 the world meant the entire human race.

The free call of the of the Gospel is given to the entire human race and thus general in nature. But the inward call of God is specific in nature and is given only to His elect by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Scripture is very clear in this dinstinction.

On the other hand he said that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.

The only election God executes is unto salvation. Others are not elect in this manner. And that is exactly what we find in the Westminster Confession.

But both cannot be true.

They can, if one distinguishes properly between the general call of the Gospel to all and the specific, inward, effectual call of God issued by His Spirit only to His elect. See above.

If God offers salvation to all of humanity then he cannot contradict Himself and choose some for salvation.

There is no contradiction. See above.

JOHN 3: GOD WANTS THE WORLD OF HUMANITY TO BE SAVED
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The 'whosoever' of John 3 must be understood in the light of the Old Testament passage to which Jesus ~ and John in quoting Him ~ is referring, Joel 2:32. Paul refers to the same passage in his letter to the Romans. The passage in question is as follows:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls." (Joel 2:32)​

What should be absolutely clear is that, yes, everyone ~ whosoever ~ calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved, but only those whom the LORD calls will call upon the name of the LORD. Jesus's 'whosoever' in John 3 is a specific group of people. Even when we look at the example Jesus offered in John 3:14, not everyone looked up to the serpent in the wilderness, but whoever ~ whosoever ~ did, lived.

"Whosoever" means anyone and everyone without exception.

Incorrect. See above.

And Five Point Calvinism contradicts them.

Not at all.

Calvinism substitutes "the elect" for "whosoever".

In a certain sense, yes, but only because the prophet Joel ~ and Jesus, and the apostles John and Paul centuries later ~ make the distinction of who makes up that 'whosoever' ~ those whom the LORD calls.

But election is never for salvation but always for glorification and perfection (Rom 8:29,30).

the elect are the foreknown (foreloved), and thus predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. These and these only God calls, justifies, and ultimately glorifies. It's for the whole process of salvation, which is from beginning to end.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Enoch111]

They can, if one distinguishes properly between the general call of the Gospel to all and the specific, inward, effectual call of God issued by His Spirit only to His elect. See above.

This is just more Calvinistic NONSENSE which flatly contradicts Scripture.

DOES GOD WANT ALL MEN TO BE SAVED? ABSOLUTELY
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

DOES GOD WANT NONE TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE? ABSOLUTELY
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

Indeed God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30,31). So this Calvinistic nonsense about an "effectual" call is pure deception. The sad truth is that one could give a Calvinist 100 verses to refute Calvinism but Scripture has absolutely NO IMPACT on hardened Calvinistic hearts. No different than the scribes and Pharisees.

 

[PinSeeker]

This is just more Calvinistic NONSENSE which flatly contradicts Scripture.

Your making that assertion does not make it so. It does no such thing.

DOES GOD WANT ALL MEN TO BE SAVED? ABSOLUTELY
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

DOES GOD WANT NONE TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE? ABSOLUTELY
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

Sure, God's desire is that all would come to knowledge of the truth, and God's heart is that all of His creation would be redeemed. But God will not compromise His justice, which is what He would have to do to save everyone, because not everyone will call upon the LORD, but only those whom He calls. He does not call everyone, but only His elect, else His gifts and calling would be revocable, which Paul is crystal clear in saying is not the case:

"...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)

Not everyone receives the gifts and the calling of God. Put simply, the general call is given generally, but the calling of God is specific and is given specifically. And this specific call never ~ never ~ fails. God's purposes cannot be thwarted.

Indeed God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30,31).

Right, and it is a general command. But, unfortunately, many will not heed this command; not all men everywhere will repent. Like Paul says in Romans 1, God gives some up to their own selfish desires and passions. And these are the ones who will be resurrected to judgment rather than to eternal life (John 5:28-29).

So this Calvinistic nonsense about an "effectual" call is pure deception.

Not at all. God calls the elect in a way that He does not call others. He does not issue His salvific calling to all. This really cannot be denied.

The sad truth is that one could give a Calvinist 100 verses to refute Calvinism...

Only by excluding swaths of Scripture and ignoring at least some of the immutable character and glory of God.

Grace and peace to you, Enoch.

 

[dhh712]

Sure, God's desire is that all would come to knowledge of the truth, and God's heart is that all of His creation would be redeemed. But God will not compromise His justice, which is what He would have to do to save everyone, because not everyone will call upon the LORD, but only those whom He calls.

God calls the elect in a way that He does not call others. He does not issue His salvific calling to all. This really cannot be denied.
Only by excluding swaths of Scripture and ignoring at least some of the immutable character and glory of God.

I've heard it said by those who promote universalism (not that that is being promoted here) that it clearly says in God's revelation of Himself that he does not wish that anyone would perish, that all would come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). However, since this contradicts other verses of Scripture (the ones that come to mind is the many where Jesus talks about eternal damnation as in "...where their worm dieth not"), we cannot understand it this way (since God will not contradict himself). We must look at other verse to clarify this.

We should understand that God's glory is most supreme (and since I have to go to work soon I can provide more verses later)--though he would desire that all should be saved (just as he did not desire that sin would enter into the world, but that happened too) in doing so this would compromise his glory as he would not be a just God. If all do not turn to Jesus (those whom he has drawn to Himself), then they themselves are choosing death over life. He must be just in leaving them to bear the penalty for their own transgressions because they did not choose to have Jesus bear them.

Though it would not be of course an exact comparison for God is not a human and his ways are not ours, I've heard it said that it is like how we do truly desire some things, but if having such would compromise us in someway then we will neglect what we desire (since my brain is still foggy, the only thing I can come up with is like let's say I love white cake with buttercream frosting and a piece of it is sitting right there on the kitchen table; however, there's a fire in the house and I've got to get out now. Well, even though I desire that cake, I'm not going to go in there and get it).

I do note that the detractors of Calvinism are for the most part ignoring the verses that clearly present it (as you speak of in your post). That is what you would have to do in order to say that God does not elect anyone to salvation and makes it entirely their own free choice with nothing to do with him at all (Effectual calling is pure deception? Only if you ignore quite a few verses of God's revelation and refuse to interpret things objectively. Logic is useful when it does not contradict God's word. When it does, we must understand that our logic has failed us. Right off the bat--and with my foggy brain so if I had time to dig I can come up with a ton more-- I can think of one from the Old Testament: "Turn us O Lord and we will turn to you". And example of effectual calling. God is sovereign. All those whom he turns *will* turn to him).

And, as Ronald pointed out, this could have something to do with wanting to hold on to some kind of inner pride that will make salvation of one's own doing and not God's I don't know. I believe some of the detractors of Calvinism sneer at us who say we are the "elect" and make out us to be prideful because like we're God's "special people" and like he "picked us over others". It was nothing in us that he saw or nothing that we did however. We do not know why he chose me to be saved and not (yet) my brother for example. I've mentioned to my friends at church that I feel like God didn't make a good choice there as my brother would be a way better advocate for him!

Often, God's people are those that, plainly speaking, are lacking in some way in something. Like for me (why I said my brother would be better), he is really great at logic and can be a great apologetic for the word. My brain gets things mixed up all the time and if I would want to say something about Jesus to others it's like my mind gets all the thoughts jumbled together and I can't put it together clearly (or often I can't think of what to say at the time and it only comes to me days later when the opportunity is gone). I also have a slight speech impediment that might make me talking about him trying. It's not like God picked us because we were better than some other people. It often seems to me that God chose his elect because we're pretty pathetic people (at least that is what it seems like to me in my case).

But regardless, it's his decision for his own reasons and there is nothing about it that should make us proud. Rather, as the apostle says in his epistle (I believe it's in Romans), faith is a gift so that none should boast. On the other hand, it would seem if it wasn't a gift, that we can go out and obtain it for ourselves then we really can boast about that--we can think to ourselves, "Well, I chose Jesus because I'm a lot more sensible than others. You must be pretty stupid to not be able to see that Jesus is the only hope in the world. Well, people are most of the time pretty thick-headed".

None of the verses the one guy quoted contradict Calvinism. They all support the idea that God draws us and we come to him. Those, as the poster above stated, are facts. It doesn't say how or why it happens. And it's a deeper doctrine presented in the Bible. As in the reply to the jailer as to what must I do to be saved? the apostle states, "Repent and believe in the Gospel". He doesn't go into a doctrinal explanation of "Well, first you must understand that God has drawn you to himself, that this isn't your own choice but that God chose you from the foundations of the world. You must first understand that God is sovereign. Then you can repent and believe in the Gospel". Those are deeper truths of the Bible which Paul explains to those who already believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

None of the verses the one guy quoted contradict Calvinism. They all support the idea that God draws us and we come to him. Those, as the poster above stated, are facts. It doesn't say how or why it happens. And it's a deeper doctrine presented in the Bible. As in the reply to the jailer as to what must I do to be saved? the apostle states, "Repent and believe in the Gospel". He doesn't go into a doctrinal explanation of "Well, first you must understand that God has drawn you to himself, that this isn't your own choice but that God chose you from the foundations of the world. You must first understand that God is sovereign. Then you can repent and believe in the Gospel". Those are deeper truths of the Bible which Paul explains to those who already believe.

Yes, Paul and the other Apostles were writing to the churches, teaching them about the mysteries of the kingdom of God.
That they wrote so explicitly about these 'Calvinistic' themed concepts meant they are true and God wanted His people to learn and know about them, the reasons for their salvation. And also, to not be deceived by wicked distortions from people who will in the future, twist the scriptures written down.

 

[dhh712]

Yes, Paul and the other Apostles were writing to the churches, teaching them about the mysteries of the kingdom of God.
That they wrote so explicitly about these 'Calvinistic' themed concepts meant they are true and God wanted His people to learn and know about them, the reasons for their salvation. And also, to not be deceived by wicked distortions from people who will in the future, twist the scriptures written down.

Right. And I totally get the whole Armenian concept of like making a choice for Jesus. Choose God and not the world. That's what it looks like and we really do make a choice. It's we that do it, of our own volition. But God gives us the ability to.

And another verse that I think it was Enoch who said it contradicts the Calvinist idea of the elect, I think he posted the one about preaching the Gospel. I'm not sure how that contradicts Calvinism. God draws people to him by means and the usual way that is done is by preaching the Gospel.

And it's not like once you're received into the kingdom, that's it-- you just go on living your life your own way knowing you'll be with God when you die. No, it's 100% God and 100% man. You got to do the work that God has prepared for you. That's all I have time to write now.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right. And I totally get the whole Armenian concept of like making a choice for Jesus. Choose God and not the world. That's what it looks like and we really do make a choice. It's we that do it, of our own volition. But God gives us the ability to.

And another verse that I think it was Enoch who said it contradicts the Calvinist idea of the elect, I think he posted the one about preaching the Gospel. I'm not sure how that contradicts Calvinism. God draws people to him by means and the usual way that is done is by preaching the Gospel.

And it's not like once you're received into the kingdom, that's it-- you just go on living your life your own way knowing you'll be with God when you die. No, it's 100% God and 100% man. You got to do the work that God has prepared for you. That's all I have time to write now.

Yes, we do receive Him, our belief is our own, our faith though comes thru Him as a gift. The Spirit teaches us, He does not teach the world the same way. Jesus does not pray for the world, He only prays - intercedes to God for the saints according to the will of God, Christ is our high priest to God, not the high priest or shepherd of the world.

John 17:9
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Hebrews 4:14
Our Compassionate High Priest
Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

 

[Scott Downey]

What I have noticed over the years, is people appropriate much of the teaching, doctrine in scripture of the NT and apply them in broad swathes to the entire world, which is a real bad error. Words like 'us', 'we', 'our', are applied to the wicked and unbelieving world. Such inclusionary ideas go against the scriptures in every case. Like all people are 'sheep' whether they believe or not. And how the forgiving atonement of Christ for sins is applied broadly to the entire world, and I have heard them say people go to hell with their sins fully forgiven. That is all nonsense humanist ungodliness. Jesus tells us those who do not believe die in their sins unforgiven.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[atpollard]

That is a good point, Calvinists are infiltrators, right now the Baptist churches are under attack.

The division between Particular and General Baptists goes back to the first church to call itself Baptist (the 1600’s). For the last 400 years, there have been Particular and General Baptists worshiping together in most Baptist Congregations with the majority swinging back and forth between the two over the centuries. It is only a crisis to those attempting to sell newspapers. For anyone aware of Baptist history, it is just another natural cyclical swing. Here is how Baptists have dealt with the crisis for 400 years:

INDIVIDUAL SOUL LIBERTY
Every individual, believer and unbeliever, possesses the God-given privilege of free will having the liberty to choose what to believe. No one should be forced to any belief against his or her will. God speaks to individuals through His Word and His Spirit. Every person is individually responsible to God and will be judged according to the beliefs and practices he or she freely chooses. Freedom of choice demands personal responsibility.

John 3:36; Romans 14:4-12; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Titus 1:9​

This is one of the “Baptist Distinctives” (those things that Baptist Churches hold in common that make then Baptists as distinct from other denominations).

 

[Grailhunter]

The division between Particular and General Baptists goes back to the first church to call itself Baptist (the 1600’s). For the last 400 years, there have been Particular and General Baptists worshiping together in most Baptist Congregations with the majority swinging back and forth between the two over the centuries. It is only a crisis to those attempting to sell newspapers. For anyone aware of Baptist history, it is just another natural cyclical swing. Here is how Baptists have dealt with the crisis for 400 years:

INDIVIDUAL SOUL LIBERTY
Every individual, believer and unbeliever, possesses the God-given privilege of free will having the liberty to choose what to believe. No one should be forced to any belief against his or her will. God speaks to individuals through His Word and His Spirit. Every person is individually responsible to God and will be judged according to the beliefs and practices he or she freely chooses. Freedom of choice demands personal responsibility.

John 3:36; Romans 14:4-12; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Titus 1:9​

This is one of the “Baptist Distinctives” (those things that Baptist Churches hold in common that make then Baptists as distinct from other denominations).

Yes I know, they have always been infiltrators. They are not up front about their beliefs. I know people that have went to churches that the Calvinist have taken over and when they finally realize the truth they feel they have been deceived and betrayed. People walk into a Baptist church and it may take years before they realize they have been hoodwinked into attending a church that characterizes God as a monstrous puppet master.

I have been all over the world and I have never seen a church that the sign out front said anything about Calvin....it is always masked under a different name. I have never seen the five points of Calvinism posted on a wall in a church. Never heard a preach say that if babies die they go to hell. That God sees no merit for Good Deeds because it was not their choice being under control of the puppet master.

Free-will or a robot. God Almighty has the power to do anything, but He is not going to use his power to do evil.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is just more Calvinistic NONSENSE which flatly contradicts Scripture.

DOES GOD WANT ALL MEN TO BE SAVED? ABSOLUTELY
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

DOES GOD WANT NONE TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE? ABSOLUTELY
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

Indeed God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30,31). So this Calvinistic nonsense about an "effectual" call is pure deception. The sad truth is that one could give a Calvinist 100 verses to refute Calvinism but Scripture has absolutely NO IMPACT on hardened Calvinistic hearts. No different than the scribes and Pharisees.

Enoch your big error is that you believe that man can resist the sovereign will of God. If God wanted all men to be saved ABSOLUTEY, then all men would be saved ABSOLUTELY!

Teh verses you quote are "wishes" or "desires" of God, not His sovereign will. YOur Armeniast position strongly implies the following: God says- I really want John Smith saved. It is my will for HIm to be saved, but He just isn't willing, so I guess He is lost! YOu have placed unsaved mans mythical free will on an equal plane with the sovereign will of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Teh verses you quote are "wishes" or "desires" of God, not His sovereign will. YOur Armeniast position strongly implies the following: God says- I really want John Smith saved. It is my will for HIm to be saved, but He just isn't willing, so I guess He is lost! YOu have placed unsaved mans mythical free will on an equal plane with the sovereign will of God.

And what you are saying is that the whole world is a puppet show. What would be the point or benefit of enslaving the world?

 

[PinSeeker]

And what you are saying is that the whole world is a puppet show.

Of course not. That's just a terrible caricature of what we are saying. It is not that we "don't have a choice," or even that we "don't make this choice freely." We do have a choice, and we must make it, but the question of who is elect of God and who is not does not depend on our choice, but on God's, who has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and compassion upon whom He will have compassion. God Himself says this to Moses, and Paul cites God's words to Moses in Romans 9:

"...when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:10-18)​

So, do we elect ourselves unto salvation? Well of course not. It is God's purpose of election, not ours.

Before the point that we are born again by the Spirit, God is not our Father, and thus we are not of God. So, our choice regarding God's great salvation will without fail be to dismiss it. This is because our father is the devil, and our desire, therefore, is to do his desires. This is what Jesus says to the Jews in John 8, that, well:

"They answered him, 'Abraham is our father.' Jesus said to them, 'If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill Me, a man Who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.' They said to him, 'We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father ~ even God.' Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of My own accord, but He sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.'" (John 8:39-44a)​

And in John 10, Jesus hits this point again:

"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep.'" (John 10:22-26)​

God is completely sovereign over all His creation. As Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44). It's not that we "can't make a choice," or that we "don't have free-will," but that our choice, our free-will, will always be otherwise unless and until we are drawn by the Father. And later, He says to His disciples, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16). And Paul says this very thing of all of us Christians in Ephesians 2:8-10, that "...by grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This is admittedly a hard truth to digest, for many reasons, but truth it is.

What would be the point or benefit of enslaving the world?

Ah! Very interesting that you put it that way. God frees us from slavery to unrighteousness. This is what Paul says in Romans 6:

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin." (Romans 6:1-7)​

You see? Well, perhaps not, but it's... right there.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course not. That's just a terrible caricature of what we are saying. It is not that we "don't have a choice," or even that we "don't make this choice freely." We do have a choice, and we must make it, but the question of who is elect of God and who is not does not depend on our choice, but on God's, who has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and compassion upon whom He will have compassion. God Himself says this to Moses, and Paul cites God's words to Moses in Romans 9:

"...when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:10-18)​

So, do we elect ourselves unto salvation? Well of course not. It is God's purpose of election, not ours.

Before the point that we are born again by the Spirit, God is not our Father, and thus we are not of God. So, our choice regarding God's great salvation will without fail be to dismiss it. This is because our father is the devil, and our desire, therefore, is to do his desires. This is what Jesus says to the Jews in John 8, that, well:

"They answered him, 'Abraham is our father.' Jesus said to them, 'If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill Me, a man Who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.' They said to him, 'We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father ~ even God.' Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of My own accord, but He sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.'" (John 8:39-44a)​

And in John 10, Jesus hits this point again:

"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep.'" (John 10:22-26)​

God is completely sovereign over all His creation. As Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44). It's not that we "can't make a choice," or that we "don't have free-will," but that our choice, our free-will, will always be otherwise unless and until we are drawn by the Father. And later, He says to His disciples, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16). And Paul says this very thing of all of us Christians in Ephesians 2:8-10, that "...by grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This is admittedly a hard truth to digest, for many reasons, but truth it is.


Ah! Very interesting that you put it that way. God frees us from slavery to unrighteousness. This is what Paul says in Romans 6:

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin." (Romans 6:1-7)​

You see? Well, perhaps not, but it's... right there.

Grace and peace to all.

That is a pretty good outline of the doctrines of Calvinism. Like I said God Almighty has the power to do anything that He wants and that includes the power to predestinate and clairvoyance. And I am sure there are some rare instances that He does predestinate individuals and events. But it would serve no purpose to apply it to all reality and make a planet of puppets, except an evil objective and God is not going to use His power for evil.

God works with people....God generally does not control people. And yes we are free to choose Christ and those that chose Christ are the elect. No one is forced to be a Christian, at least very few....it would serve no purpose.

Of course not. That's just a terrible caricature of what we are saying. It is not that we "don't have a choice," or even that we "don't make this choice freely." We do have a choice, and we must make it, but the question of who is elect of God and who is not does not depend on our choice, but on God's, who has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and compassion upon whom He will have compassion.

Sorry but this looks like double talk. The whole argument against Calvinism is free-will. If Calvinists believed in free-will that would change the debate. Calvinists believe the destiny of all is made by God before creation. This is another well known fact.