How Confidant Are You Being Saved?

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't get it.
Reward. Gift.
Same thing really.
Both are describing salvation

Actually no.

I gift is freely given, It is not paid for in any sense by the person recieving the gift. If the reciever has to pay something in return. it is not a gift.

A reward (or wage) is something we earn. I earn a reward by working for it.

If I have faith, do good deeds and repent for my sins but you say I won't be saved because I'm trusting my good deeds then I strongly disagree.

Well thats too bad. Because your trying to earn salvation as a reward, and not recieving it in faith as a gift.

Your the only person that hasn't said yes I will be saved when I ask that question.

I did not say you would not be saved. i said it depends..

Even you said we will be judged on our deeds and get the reward which I'm assuming is the reward of salvation.

No. Salvation is not a reward it is a gift.

You earn a crown, You earn Gold Silver Precious Stone. You earn Wood hay and Straw. You earn reewards for bearing fruit

You earn hell because of your sin

You can not earn salvation. Nothing you could ever do would make you worthy to enter the presence of God.


2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us (a completed action) and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in christ jesus before time began

titus 3: 4 but when the kindness and the love of god our savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through jesus christ our savior, 7 that having been justified by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

And if a person believes they will be saved on faith alone then they don't need to worry about deeds or repentance. It gives them a false license to sin. I disagree with that too

This is a strawman argument. No one thinks this way but those who are apposed to Salvation By Grace Through Faith, apart from works

We have become like the tax collector. So horrified by our sin and rebellion against a Holy God. we are not even able to look up at him in shame and cry out for his mercy.

Anyway, whatever. Thanks for trying to explain this concept but faith alone makes no sense me. I don't understand it.

It is basic

Trust God
1. You are a sinner. Hence the wage of sin is death. You cannot come into the presence of God. because of your sin
2. God, whi is rich in his mercy and grace. loved the world. And sent his son to become the lamb of God who takes your sin on his body. so you can be restored to life.
3. Trust in God

if you do this
1. God will save you
2. God will adopt you as his child
3. God will give you the HS as a pledge
4. God will make you into a new creature
5. God will restor you to life (regeneration)
6. God will wash you and make you clean
7. God will teach you to be like him.

We can be confident of this thing, that he who started a good work in us will complete it.

the question is, where is your faith? In self (works) or in God (grace and mercy)

rom 11: 6 and if by grace, than it is no longer of works, ; otherwise grace is no longer grace.but if it is of works, then it is no longer of grace. otherwise work is no longer work

It can be one (grace) or the other (works) but it can not be both.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ our Lord. rom 6

I will continue with my good deeds and repent for my bad deeds and let God be the judge. For as James says, faith without deeds is dead

You keep doing this. I will pray for you.

I will continue to trust God.. and continue to know he will continue his work in me. Forming me into the man he created. Not because I am worthy, But because he is Good

 

[faithhopecharity]

It's not. They're synonymous.
Eternal Salvation is eternal life in Christ because prior to our redemption from being dead in our sins,we were subject to the second death. Death,in sin,after the body dies.

what the sin not unto death and the sin unto death? 1 Jn 5:16-17

1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[faithhopecharity]

No sir! Christ says who his real brothers are and it is conditional not certain. Milk. Meat. Not the same.

a prodigal son is lost but still a son!

we must repent and confess and return to our fathers house lest we die of wretchedness and hunger!

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Honestly, what is wrong with you people?

Eternal Salvation is precisely what Jesus said it is.

ETERNAL!

NO ONE comes to Jesus unless the father leads them. God chooses us,we don't choose him. Jesus even told his Disciples that. He chose them. They did not choose him.

So it goes with the rest of his church. No one comes to,can come to,Jesus unless God opens their heart by his grace,installs faith,and leads them to understanding of God's will,ways,and words.

God said this all throughout the New Testament.

And those whom he calls,he will never cast out. We are eternally his. His property. Sealed by his holy spirit. It's the armor of God.

And that's why we do not wilfully sin. Because holy spirit is within us.
If we make mistakes,we know it. We repent and are forgiven.

You all argue, make absurd doctrines from your own imaginings,twist Scripture thinking that will back up your claims,and think you make sense?

If it can be lost,or labored over to keep,it isn't Salvation!

We were dead in sin before God called us. We were unable to understand the things of God before God called us into his grace. His irrevocable free gift.

And I'll tell you this,those who keep saying, we're not eternally saved. We have to labor to stay saved. We have to work to keep ourselves in God's grace. Are not just contradicting Jesus. Repeatedly. Obstinately.
You're refusing correction by Gods own words.

And you know what that shows God's church? Also,exactly what God said.

You all are unable to understand the things of God.



And we who keep trying to change that don't get it. God changes that. Not us.
Just as he said.

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

are you rewriting scripture

not grace but eternal salvation?

why does gal 5:4 say you have fallen from grace and not you have fallen from eternal salvation?

cos we don't have eternal salvation (mt 10:22) we have the grace of justification and we must participate in sanctification and perseverance!

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Amen! DOUBLE Hallelujah! There IS So Much Preserved Biblical Evidence Provided By God
our ETERNAL Saviour and LORD!!! Praise HIM Now And For Ever And EVER!! Amen!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

TOTAL Confidence, eh?
----------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

we have the grace of justification not eternal salvation or eternal security

explain ps 23:3 He restoreth my soul!

and

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Honestly, what is wrong with you people?

Eternal Salvation is precisely what Jesus said it is.

ETERNAL!

NO ONE comes to Jesus unless the father leads them. God chooses us,we don't choose him. Jesus even told his Disciples that. He chose them. They did not choose him.

So it goes with the rest of his church. No one comes to,can come to,Jesus unless God opens their heart by his grace,installs faith,and leads them to understanding of God's will,ways,and words.

God said this all throughout the New Testament.

And those whom he calls,he will never cast out. We are eternally his. His property. Sealed by his holy spirit. It's the armor of God.

And that's why we do not wilfully sin. Because holy spirit is within us.
If we make mistakes,we know it. We repent and are forgiven.

You all argue, make absurd doctrines from your own imaginings,twist Scripture thinking that will back up your claims,and think you make sense?

If it can be lost,or labored over to keep,it isn't Salvation!

We were dead in sin before God called us. We were unable to understand the things of God before God called us into his grace. His irrevocable free gift.

And I'll tell you this,those who keep saying, we're not eternally saved. We have to labor to stay saved. We have to work to keep ourselves in God's grace. Are not just contradicting Jesus. Repeatedly. Obstinately.
You're refusing correction by Gods own words.

And you know what that shows God's church? Also,exactly what God said.

You all are unable to understand the things of God.



And we who keep trying to change that don't get it. God changes that. Not us.
Just as he said.

((grace questions))

can we have eternal salvation and eternal salvation more abundantly?

Jn 10:10

Can we have eternal salvation that leads to eternal salvation?

Mt 7:14

Why are we promised eternal salvation if we possess eternal salvation?

Mk 10:30

Why have hope of eternal salvation if we possess eternal salvation?

Matthew 25:46

Romans 2:7

titus 1:2

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

That is a false choice. Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word. No one here is denying that. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. John also said, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar” ~1 John 2:4.

But that is not the same question as how a sinner is justified before God. Scripture does not say we are justified by faith plus practicing the virtues of Christ. It says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It also says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

First Corinthians 13:13 says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. Charity is essential in the Christian life. But Paul was not teaching there that charity is the ground of justification. The same Paul said, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Matthew 11:29 also does not teach works-maintained justification. Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.” Yes, the believer follows Christ and learns of Him. But notice what He gives: “ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Rest is not earned by our performance. It is found in Him.

So yes, Christians must practice the virtues of Christ. But those virtues are the fruit of salvation, not the price paid to keep justification. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” The order matters. Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it, preserve it, or complete it.

Christ does not justify a man temporarily and then hand him the burden of staying justified by works. Scripture says, “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ~Romans 5:1.

why do you assume that christian morals and virtues equate to the works of the law?

many kinds of works

((unfruitful works))

(works of the law)

Refer to the works of the mosaic covenant

(works of the flesh)

Listed in Gal 5:19-21 & Eph 5:3-5
these cause the loss of grace and the bar us from salvation in the kingdom of God. the unfruitful works of darkness

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. eph 5:6

(dead works) or (works alone) or (natural works)

Works that are good in and of themselves but are not in union with Christ and grace and have power to accomplish perseverance unto eternal salvation! unfruitful works

Apart from Christ: NOTHING! Jn 15:5

((fruitful works))

Living works or deeds of rightousness!

(living works) (faith & works)

Supernatural good works (gifts of God) accomplished in union with Christ and empowered by His grace with perseverance to the end of our life unto eternal salvation!

fruitful works! Lk 3:9 Jn 15:5 bear fruit

2 cor 9: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

With Christ & empowered by grace:
I CAN DO ALL THINGS! Phil 4:13

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Living works:
1 pet 2:15-16 good works
1 pet 2:20 acceptable to God
1 pet 2:21-22 suffer as Christ suffered

righteousness implies & requires acts (volition) of righteousness
just deeds unto faithfulness in the new covenant!
mt 3:15
mt 10:22
mt 25
mt 6:33
mt 7:7
mt 26:41
mt 7:14
Lk 1:75
acts 10:35
rom 3:21
rom 5:21
rom 6:18
1 tim 6:11
1 tim 2:22
2 tim 3:16
heb 11:33
2 pet 2:21
1 Jn 2:29
1 Jn 3:7
1 pet 2:24



mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Practices)

Luke 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
(acts / deeds)

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: (works of the flesh) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (living works of righteousness)

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, (works of the flesh) or of obedience unto righteousness? (living works of righteousness)

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; (works of the flesh) even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (living works of righteousness)

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (living works of righteousness)

1 tim 6: 11-14

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Living works of righteousness)

deeds rewarded with eternal salvation! Heb 11:6 God is a rewarder of those who seek Him!

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

That is a false choice. Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word. No one here is denying that. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. John also said, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar” ~1 John 2:4.

But that is not the same question as how a sinner is justified before God. Scripture does not say we are justified by faith plus practicing the virtues of Christ. It says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It also says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

First Corinthians 13:13 says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. Charity is essential in the Christian life. But Paul was not teaching there that charity is the ground of justification. The same Paul said, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Matthew 11:29 also does not teach works-maintained justification. Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.” Yes, the believer follows Christ and learns of Him. But notice what He gives: “ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Rest is not earned by our performance. It is found in Him.

So yes, Christians must practice the virtues of Christ. But those virtues are the fruit of salvation, not the price paid to keep justification. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” The order matters. Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it, preserve it, or complete it.

Christ does not justify a man temporarily and then hand him the burden of staying justified by works. Scripture says, “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ~Romans 5:1.

"Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word"

why? of does not lead to eternal salvation?

mt 7:14 narrow road leads to life

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

That is a false choice. Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word. No one here is denying that. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. John also said, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar” ~1 John 2:4.

But that is not the same question as how a sinner is justified before God. Scripture does not say we are justified by faith plus practicing the virtues of Christ. It says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It also says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

First Corinthians 13:13 says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. Charity is essential in the Christian life. But Paul was not teaching there that charity is the ground of justification. The same Paul said, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Matthew 11:29 also does not teach works-maintained justification. Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.” Yes, the believer follows Christ and learns of Him. But notice what He gives: “ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Rest is not earned by our performance. It is found in Him.

So yes, Christians must practice the virtues of Christ. But those virtues are the fruit of salvation, not the price paid to keep justification. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” The order matters. Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it, preserve it, or complete it.

Christ does not justify a man temporarily and then hand him the burden of staying justified by works. Scripture says, “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ~Romans 5:1.

eph 2 and titus 3:5 refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us

Justification is our acceptance of His redemption then sanctification and perseverance which we are required to participate in!

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

That is a false choice. Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word. No one here is denying that. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. John also said, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar” ~1 John 2:4.

But that is not the same question as how a sinner is justified before God. Scripture does not say we are justified by faith plus practicing the virtues of Christ. It says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It also says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

First Corinthians 13:13 says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. Charity is essential in the Christian life. But Paul was not teaching there that charity is the ground of justification. The same Paul said, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Matthew 11:29 also does not teach works-maintained justification. Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.” Yes, the believer follows Christ and learns of Him. But notice what He gives: “ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Rest is not earned by our performance. It is found in Him.

So yes, Christians must practice the virtues of Christ. But those virtues are the fruit of salvation, not the price paid to keep justification. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” The order matters. Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it, preserve it, or complete it.

Christ does not justify a man temporarily and then hand him the burden of staying justified by works. Scripture says, “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ~Romans 5:1.

please explain

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (salvation)

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

That is a false choice. Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word. No one here is denying that. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. John also said, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar” ~1 John 2:4.

But that is not the same question as how a sinner is justified before God. Scripture does not say we are justified by faith plus practicing the virtues of Christ. It says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It also says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

First Corinthians 13:13 says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. Charity is essential in the Christian life. But Paul was not teaching there that charity is the ground of justification. The same Paul said, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Matthew 11:29 also does not teach works-maintained justification. Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.” Yes, the believer follows Christ and learns of Him. But notice what He gives: “ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Rest is not earned by our performance. It is found in Him.

So yes, Christians must practice the virtues of Christ. But those virtues are the fruit of salvation, not the price paid to keep justification. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” The order matters. Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it, preserve it, or complete it.

Christ does not justify a man temporarily and then hand him the burden of staying justified by works. Scripture says, “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ~Romans 5:1.

please explain

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

That is a false choice. Christians are required to follow Christ, practice righteousness, walk in love, and obey His Word. No one here is denying that. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. John also said, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar” ~1 John 2:4.

But that is not the same question as how a sinner is justified before God. Scripture does not say we are justified by faith plus practicing the virtues of Christ. It says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It also says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

First Corinthians 13:13 says, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. Charity is essential in the Christian life. But Paul was not teaching there that charity is the ground of justification. The same Paul said, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Matthew 11:29 also does not teach works-maintained justification. Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.” Yes, the believer follows Christ and learns of Him. But notice what He gives: “ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Rest is not earned by our performance. It is found in Him.

So yes, Christians must practice the virtues of Christ. But those virtues are the fruit of salvation, not the price paid to keep justification. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” The order matters. Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it, preserve it, or complete it.

Christ does not justify a man temporarily and then hand him the burden of staying justified by works. Scripture says, “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ~Romans 5:1.

The supernatural virtue of Hope;

and the sin of presumption:

To declare that we are saved or have eternal salvation or an assurance of salvation is a sin against the virtue of hope!

We must believe we have the grace of justification and the Hope of eternal salvation!

It is absurd to hope for something that we already possess!

It is also a sin against the Holy Spirit!

Presumption of God’s mercy:

A foolish confidence of salvation, without leading a good life, or any care to keep the Commandments; such as they entertain who think they will be saved by faith only, without good works. (having no merits)

Phil 4:13 I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me!

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

1 pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

You are still confusing the fruit of salvation with the ground of justification. No one is denying that Christians watch, pray, suffer, endure, obey, bear fruit, and follow Christ. The issue is whether those things justify us before God or preserve our justification. Scripture says no.

Matthew 26:41 says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Amen. Christians must watch and pray. But that verse does not say justification is maintained by works. It warns believers against temptation because the flesh is weak. A command to pray is not proof that Christ’s blood is insufficient to save.

Your “depart from me” argument actually hurts your position. Jesus does not say, “Depart from me, ye who trusted in faith alone.” He says, “depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity” ~Luke 13:27. In Matthew 7:22-23, the people He rejects are not boasting in Christ’s finished work. They are boasting in what they did: “have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” Jesus answers, “I never knew you.” Their works did not save them. Their many religious works did not make up for the fact that they were never known by Christ.

Philippians 1:29 says believers are appointed not only to believe on Christ, but also “to suffer for his sake.” Amen. Luke 14:27 says the disciple must bear his cross. Romans 8:17 says the children of God suffer with Christ. I believe all of that. But suffering for Christ is the path of discipleship, not the price of justification. Paul is the same apostle who said, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

You listed many verses on patience, but none of them say patience is the basis of justification. Patience is produced in believers through trials. Romans 5:3 says “tribulation worketh patience.” James 1:3 says “the trying of your faith worketh patience.” Colossians 1:11 says believers are “strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience.” That is God working in His people. It is not man maintaining justification by his own performance.

Hebrews 10:36 says, “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” Yes, believers endure. But the same chapter says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14. One offering. Perfected for ever. That is the ground.

Revelation 14:12 says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Amen. Saints keep God’s commandments and hold the faith of Jesus. That describes the saints. It does not say their commandment keeping is what keeps them justified.

The Bible does not teach a dead faith that produces no obedience. But it also does not teach justification by faith plus obedience, faith plus suffering, faith plus patience, or faith plus cross-bearing. Scripture says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

The order matters. We are not saved by good works. We are saved unto good works. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Good works follow the new birth. They do not purchase it, preserve it, or complete it.

So yes, Christians must persevere. But the true believer perseveres because God keeps His own. “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” ~1 Peter 1:5. “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” ~Philippians 1:6. The glory belongs to Christ, not to our patience, suffering, obedience, or works.

I did not say good works are the basis of justification but that the grace of justification empowers good works unto eternal salvation!

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

No

they all speak of works.

A work is something you do. you work to earn merit.

Our works are wings, they are necessary but by them alone we cannot fly!

Grace is the wind beneath our wings!

With God's grace we can soar to heavenly glory!

Glory to God in the highest!

 

[faithhopecharity]

No

they all speak of works.

A work is something you do. you work to earn merit.

there are different kinds of works, some have value some have no value!

kinds of works

((unfruitful works))

(works of the law)

Refer to the works of the mosaic covenant

(works of the flesh)

Listed in Gal 5:19-21 & Eph 5:3-5
these cause the loss of grace and the bar us from salvation in the kingdom of God. the unfruitful works of darkness

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. eph 5:6

(dead works) or (works alone) or (natural works)

Works that are good in and of themselves but are not in union with Christ and grace and have power to accomplish perseverance unto eternal salvation! unfruitful works

Apart from Christ: NOTHING! Jn 15:5

((fruitful works))

Living works or deeds of rightousness!

(living works) (faith & works)

Supernatural good works (gifts of God) accomplished in union with Christ and empowered by His grace with perseverance to the end of our life unto eternal salvation!

fruitful works! Lk 3:9 Jn 15:5 bear fruit

2 cor 9: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

With Christ & empowered by grace:
I CAN DO ALL THINGS! Phil 4:13

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Living works:
1 pet 2:15-16 good works
1 pet 2:20 acceptable to God
1 pet 2:21-22 suffer as Christ suffered

righteousness implies & requires acts (volition) of righteousness
just deeds unto faithfulness in the new covenant!
mt 3:15
mt 10:22
mt 25
mt 6:33
mt 7:7
mt 26:41
mt 7:14
Lk 1:75
acts 10:35
rom 3:21
rom 5:21
rom 6:18
1 tim 6:11
1 tim 2:22
2 tim 3:16
heb 11:33
2 pet 2:21
1 Jn 2:29
1 Jn 3:7
1 pet 2:24



mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Practices)

Luke 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
(acts / deeds)

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: (works of the flesh) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (living works of righteousness)

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, (works of the flesh) or of obedience unto righteousness? (living works of righteousness)

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; (works of the flesh) even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (living works of righteousness)

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (living works of righteousness)

1 tim 6: 11-14

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Living works of righteousness)

deeds rewarded with eternal salvation! Heb 11:6 God is a rewarder of those who seek Him!

thks

 

[Gray_Joy]

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

are you rewriting scripture

not grace but eternal salvation?

why does gal 5:4 say you have fallen from grace and not you have fallen from eternal salvation?

cos we don't have eternal salvation (mt 10:22) we have the grace of justification and we must participate in sanctification and perseverance!

thks

I'm not rewriting scripture. I'm referring to scripture.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Nope

the water is the word.

acts 8:39 why are they in the water?

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Nope

the water is the word.

Baptism implies water:

ez 36:25
Acts 8:36-38
acts 10:47
Jn 3:5
acts 22:16
1 cor 6:11
titus 3:5
heb 10:22

the only baptism is water baptism, the initial sacrament of the christian faith. water baptism includes, the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, & charity, sanctifying grace, and the life of the Spirit!

ez 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

acts 2:38-41 & 47

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 8:36-38

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[faithhopecharity]

You are still confusing the fruit of salvation with the ground of justification. No one is denying that Christians watch, pray, suffer, endure, obey, bear fruit, and follow Christ. The issue is whether those things justify us before God or preserve our justification. Scripture says no.

Matthew 26:41 says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Amen. Christians must watch and pray. But that verse does not say justification is maintained by works. It warns believers against temptation because the flesh is weak. A command to pray is not proof that Christ’s blood is insufficient to save.

Your “depart from me” argument actually hurts your position. Jesus does not say, “Depart from me, ye who trusted in faith alone.” He says, “depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity” ~Luke 13:27. In Matthew 7:22-23, the people He rejects are not boasting in Christ’s finished work. They are boasting in what they did: “have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” Jesus answers, “I never knew you.” Their works did not save them. Their many religious works did not make up for the fact that they were never known by Christ.

Philippians 1:29 says believers are appointed not only to believe on Christ, but also “to suffer for his sake.” Amen. Luke 14:27 says the disciple must bear his cross. Romans 8:17 says the children of God suffer with Christ. I believe all of that. But suffering for Christ is the path of discipleship, not the price of justification. Paul is the same apostle who said, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

You listed many verses on patience, but none of them say patience is the basis of justification. Patience is produced in believers through trials. Romans 5:3 says “tribulation worketh patience.” James 1:3 says “the trying of your faith worketh patience.” Colossians 1:11 says believers are “strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience.” That is God working in His people. It is not man maintaining justification by his own performance.

Hebrews 10:36 says, “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” Yes, believers endure. But the same chapter says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14. One offering. Perfected for ever. That is the ground.

Revelation 14:12 says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Amen. Saints keep God’s commandments and hold the faith of Jesus. That describes the saints. It does not say their commandment keeping is what keeps them justified.

The Bible does not teach a dead faith that produces no obedience. But it also does not teach justification by faith plus obedience, faith plus suffering, faith plus patience, or faith plus cross-bearing. Scripture says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

The order matters. We are not saved by good works. We are saved unto good works. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. Then verse 10 says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Good works follow the new birth. They do not purchase it, preserve it, or complete it.

So yes, Christians must persevere. But the true believer perseveres because God keeps His own. “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” ~1 Peter 1:5. “He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” ~Philippians 1:6. The glory belongs to Christ, not to our patience, suffering, obedience, or works.

do we have salvation here and now or only justification

is justification the same as salvation

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Likewise he who does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believed (lack faith)

those who do not believe what Jesus said? "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved"!

 

[faithhopecharity]

Thats not possible.. If it is eternal. Then it is eternal.

Yes.. We have fallen from what COULD have saved us.. before it did save us and give us eternal life.

Grace is offered to everyone. Some have it in their hands. and walk away. having never truly embraced it

I agree it's impossible so we don't have eternal salvation only the grace of justification!

Amen?