How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[HealthyShape]

LOL.... we always know when people run out of argument.....when they cannot defend....they attack....
I’ll just leave that there for posterity, but will say one thing that really stands out in your response.....

You said....
“Both the Father and The Son are called "ho theos" in the Bible and both are also called just "theos". The definite article "ho" has no special theological meaning in the Greek grammar.”

That is patently wrong. When reading the Greek with reference to God, and Christ, the Greeks knew what you apparently do not....the definite article is crucial in identifying the right God or god..in context.

Read John 10:31-36 and see that only God is identified as “ho theos”....the “gods” Jesus referred to were human judges, and Jesus refers to himself as “the Son of “ho theos”.....

You are saying that Jesus is Yahweh....he is the son of Yahweh.....only begotten....unique.

I showed you that the instances where Jesus is called “ho theos” were not references to him as God (capital “G”), but like Satan was called “ho theos” (2 Cor 4:4) because he was identified as “the god” (small “g”) of this world”.
Thomas’ words in Greek, are phrased very differently to English.....he said...”the Lord of me and the god of me”....”ho theos“ there is about phrasing, not deity. He did not disagree with his fellow apostles, who knew exactly who their “one God” was.....”the Father”. (1 Cor 8:5-6)

Context tells us where God is meant, not capital letters, which you know don’t exist in Greek. Translators got away with murder.....trinitarian bias is plainly evident.

You are just repeating the nonsense you heard somewhere. You cannot even read Greek, but you try to teach it here. Conversation with you is fruitless.

I could just repeat the verses I gave you, but you cannot read them, so there is nothing to continue with.

Better call the Jehovah Witness who is teaching you the nonsense to come here and to speak for himself, instead of hiding behind somebody who cannot even recognize Greek letters, who does not understand the different Psalm numbering in the LXX etc.

 

[Brakelite]

Because I "deal" with the Bible as a whole and do not look to cherry pick to prove my point.
The one god formula is not biblical.
The four gospels show two God working together....talking to each other....refering to each other.
50 My Father scriptures some of them My Father in Heaven.
Christ ascended to His Father
Christ statement....the Father is greater than I.
Yahweh knowing the end of time and Yeshua did not.
Yeshua not having the authority to grant John and James mother's request for her sons to sit on the right and left of Yeshua.
The one God formula is a Roman Catholic doctrine.

I disagree with the way the creeds are used as a formula in order to describe God. They go too far in attempting to reduce an infinite Being to a formula to satisfy a finite man's intellect . None of us can understand the nature of the Godhead. It is beyond us all, and arguing over details is fraught with danger and chasms at each extreme which spell disaster should we venture in. The Bible gives us a certain amount of information; sufficient information to desire and in faith allow God to initiate a relationship with us that we may know Him and His Son. Yes, you are correct that both Father and Son are divine. But I disagree that they are individual God's, because they are both God. There is only ever been one God. That one God, the source of all had a Son. The life He have to His Son is His own life. A divine life. And the Son said, My Father and I are one. How they are one we are not informed. But they are certainly separate individual persons, which constitute one God. How that works we don't know. As for the holy Spirit, we know even less. The holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and the Son.

God dwells in us by His Spirit. It is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father. All three are described as God (He that raised up Christ) in us. Also, Christ is in us.

“9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ”
Romans 8:9-11 KJV

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[Brakelite]

That Jesus was not speaking to himself.

Okay. Does anytime actually teach that?

 

[Brakelite]

If you believe this then Christ could not have pre-existed.

Why not? He wasn't called Christ or Jesus, but He was begotten long enough ago to create everything.

 

[Brakelite]

In nature, the Son of Man and the Son of God differ: the Son of Man refers to Christ in his humanity (100%), while the Son of God with power refers to Christ in his divine authority granted by God. The glorified Christ became eternal when the Father gave him immortality, meaning Christ did not exist before this and therefore had no pre-existence.

You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to come to that conclusion.

 

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite you cannot receive something from God if it is already in your possession.

God placed access to His Life in His Son.

1 John 5:11–12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Do you understand how and why God did this in His Son?

As soon as you remove this granted / given Life to Christ you remove your own Life.

The Son received everything of His Father through being begotten. A literal ontological Son... Not a metaphor or a created being. A Son that came forth of God before creation. A Son who in conjunction and agreement with His Father, chose to become a human baby with all the weaknesses and trials that torment us, but through faith in His Father's power, overcame that we may also overcome by faith and through abiding in the Vine through which our strength and life comes.
That life you speak was His natural inheritance. Astonishingly, by the grace of God, we are to receive that eternal life at the resurrection as adopted children.

 

[Grailhunter]

I disagree with the way the creeds are used as a formula in order to describe God. They go too far in attempting to reduce an infinite Being to a formula to satisfy a finite man's intellect . None of us can understand the nature of the Godhead. It is beyond us all, and arguing over details is fraught with danger and chasms at each extreme which spell disaster should we venture in. The Bible gives us a certain amount of information; sufficient information to desire and in faith allow God to initiate a relationship with us that we may know Him and His Son. Yes, you are correct that both Father and Son are divine. But I disagree that they are individual God's, because they are both God. There is only ever been one God. That one God, the source of all had a Son. The life He have to His Son is His own life. A divine life. And the Son said, My Father and I are one. How they are one we are not informed. But they are certainly separate individual persons, which constitute one God. How that works we don't know. As for the holy Spirit, we know even less. The holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and the Son.

God dwells in us by His Spirit. It is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father. All three are described as God (He that raised up Christ) in us. Also, Christ is in us.

“9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ”
Romans 8:9-11 KJV

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God is a divine position, not a name....that got lost when they removed Yahweh's name 6,800 times in the Old Testament and replaced it with the words God or Lord or both.
God the Father is the supreme God ….. The Father is greater than I ……and I have an essay that proves that the one God formula is wrong with over a hundred scriptures. Like wise the one God formula skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures.....50 My Father scripture.....Should Yeshua have said that He is the Father of Himself? Or or I am greater than I or should the scripture read God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten self. Or when Yeshua was on the cross He should have said, Myself! Myself! why have you forsaken me!

As far as unity....If you have three computers the outcome of all three will be the same. Three perfect minds will do the same and always agree. One mind may know something the others do not like when Christ said He did not know when the end of time was, on the Father. And there is hyarchy of authority like when Christ told John and James mother that He did have the authority to give her sons thrones on each side of Him.

But either way no harm no foul. it is a popular belief, just like the fruit of the tree in the Paradise of Delights was an apple. And then you have the false doctrine of Original Sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree with the way the creeds are used as a formula in order to describe God. They go too far in attempting to reduce an infinite Being to a formula to satisfy a finite man's intellect .

Although I do agree with you, I do find the creeds to be helpful.
You're correct that they're man's way of trying to explain Jesus.
Don't you believe we DO have to understand it in some way?
If we're going to believe in the Trinity, we have to come to believe it in a way we can understand.

None of us can understand the nature of the Godhead. It is beyond us all, and arguing over details is fraught with danger and chasms at each extreme which spell disaster should we venture in.

So true.
I've used different methods to explain the Trinity to 10-13 year olds and every way was heretical in some way...however it DOES have to be explained.
The easy way is that God is 3 persons in 1 being....all 3 share the same nature.
But it doesn't say much, does it?
The human brain desires something more.

The Bible gives us a certain amount of information; sufficient information to desire and in faith allow God to initiate a relationship with us that we may know Him and His Son. Yes, you are correct that both Father and Son are divine. But I disagree that they are individual God's, because they are both God.

If they are individual gods then it would mean that God is not sovereign and that something is greater than God.
There cannot be more than one God if He is to be supreme.
I've never really understood @Grailhunter 's position although we agree on most theology.
We MUST maintain that God IS ONE.

There is only ever been one God. That one God, the source of all had a Son. The life He have to His Son is His own life. A divine life. And the Son said, My Father and I are one. How they are one we are not informed. But they are certainly separate individual persons, which constitute one God. How that works we don't know. As for the holy Spirit, we know even less. The holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and the Son.

Even here we see a slight mistake!
You make it sound as if the 2nd person of the Trinity was created at some point.
Jesus always existed and was not created.

God dwells in us by His Spirit. It is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father. All three are described as God (He that raised up Christ) in us. Also, Christ is in us.

“9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ”
Romans 8:9-11 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

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[GodsGrace]

God is a divine position, not a name....that got lost when they removed Yahweh's name 6,800 times in the Old Testament and replaced it with the words God or Lord or both.
God the Father is the supreme God ….. The Father is greater than I ……and I have an essay that proves that the one God formula is wrong with over a hundred scriptures. Like wise the one God formula skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures.....50 My Father scripture.....Should Yeshua have said that He is the Father of Himself? Or or I am greater than I or should the scripture read God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten self. Or when Yeshua was on the cross He should have said, Myself! Myself! why have you forsaken me!

As far as unity....If you have three computers the outcome of all three will be the same. Three perfect minds will do the same and always agree. One mind may know something the others do not like when Christ said He did not know when the end of time was, on the Father. And there is hyarchy of authority like when Christ told John and James mother that He did have the authority to give her sons thrones on each side of Him.

But either way no harm no foul. it is a popular belief, just like the fruit of the tree in the Paradise of Delights was an apple. And then you have the false doctrine of Original Sin.

Do you have any open threads on original sin??

 

[Grailhunter]

Although I do agree with you, I do find the creeds to be helpful.
You're correct that they're man's way of trying to explain Jesus.
Don't you believe we DO have to understand it in some way?
If we're going to believe in the Trinity, we have to come to believe it in a way we can understand.

The three in one formula is hocus pocus I think that why people like it. Either way it is false and tells to the disagreements of the Ecumenical Councils that could not be resolved so the Three in one doctrine was produced upon penalty of death.....to stop the disagreements.

It was Yahweh that came up with the designations of Father AND Son so we could understand.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you have any open threads on original sin??

It was St. Augustine that came up with the belief of Original Sin and John Calvin loved it….predestined babies to Hell.

Augustine hated women, sex, and sexuality…..because by his own writings he was a sexual pervert that could not control himself. He felt his otherwise good character was ruined by the temptation of women and in that role they served Satan. He apparently felt if he could not control himself no one could. So he equated all sex a sin married or not. So the conception of a baby was done by the act of sinning. So consequently had sin on its soul before it was born. One of many reasons the Catholics came up with infant baptism.

On the topic of sexual desire...“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body Written by St. Augustine

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.”
Written by St. Augustine

“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” Written by St. Augustine

Referring to the Hell that awaits women, Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord." Written by St. Augustine

”..marriage is a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth....Marriage was prostitution of the members of Christ, and married people ought to blush at the state in which they live.” Written by St. Ambrose

 

[rebuilder 454]

Response to the above:

This is a striking and tragic example of the human tendency to speculate on divine matters instead of humbly accepting the straightforward testimony of Scripture. Nowhere in the Bible is there any justification for this convoluted and self-contradictory notion. While it is true that we can never fully comprehend God (@Brakelite ) with our limited human minds, the revelations He has given of Himself, His Son, and His Holy Spirit—His power and presence that fills all of creation and accomplishes His will—are clear, simple, reasonable, and deeply satisfying. They offer a welcome relief from the confusing speculations mentioned above.

The doctrine of the "Trinity" is not found in Scripture. The following historical quotations will provide insight into the period during which this doctrine emerged, illustrating the philosophical influences, methods of reasoning, and political forces that ultimately led to its establishment. These forces enforced the doctrine through confiscation, prohibition, punishment, and even murder. This historical context will reveal the fragile, human foundation upon which the doctrine of the Trinity rests, helping to dispel the weight it seems to carry due to centuries of "orthodox" acceptance.

Just pretend the trinity verses do not exist.
Watchtower is a good template for you to embrace.
...or what ever cult you are part of.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Colossians 1, rather than supporting the doctrine of the Trinity, actually stands in opposition to it. Consider the following points:

• If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), He is a likeness or representation, not the original.
• Christ is described as the "firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15). The term "firstborn" implies a beginning, meaning Christ cannot be the "Eternal" Son of God as taught by Trinitarians.

Your mind is unable to embrace something beyond its capability.
So you proceed MENTALLY from there.

Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
Human reasoning ( your basis ) would really struggle with that.
Maybe come up with some "finite" cunning solution....when in fact it is to be EMBRACED...NOT FIGURED OUT.
Non trinitarians make outlandish mental claims, unable to embrace the Trinity outlined in scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

It was St. Augustine that came up with the belief of Original Sin and John Calvin loved it….predestined babies to Hell.

Augustine hated women, sex, and sexuality…..because by his own writings he was a sexual pervert that could not control himself. He felt his otherwise good character was ruined by the temptation of women and in that role they served Satan. He apparently felt if he could not control himself no one could. So he equated all sex a sin married or not. So the conception of a baby was done by the act of sinning. So consequently had sin on its soul before it was born. One of many reasons the Catholics came up with infant baptism.

On the topic of sexual desire...“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body Written by St. Augustine

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.”
Written by St. Augustine

“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” Written by St. Augustine

Referring to the Hell that awaits women, Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord." Written by St. Augustine

”..marriage is a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth....Marriage was prostitution of the members of Christ, and married people ought to blush at the state in which they live.” Written by St. Ambrose

I guess that takes care of that!
The idea of original sin was spoken of by the ECFs, but in the sense of it being the first sin.
Indeed it was Augustine that changed its meaning entirely to mean that we are personally responsible for Adam's sin - as if we committed it. This was never taught by the ECFs.

And you've also explained WHY Augustine believed that man had no free will...
it relieved him of all the guilt from having lived a life of sin.

Good post!

 

[GodsGrace]

The three in one formula is hocus pocus I think that why people like it. Either way it is false and tells to the disagreements of the Ecumenical Councils that could not be resolved so the Three in one doctrine was produced upon penalty of death.....to stop the disagreements.

It was Yahweh that came up with the designations of Father AND Son so we could understand.

G,,,either Jesus was God or he was a man.
I don't see any other way.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Imagine that.
Watchtower in here with cult doctrine blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

They will all stand before God and be rewarded properly for the unforgivable sin.

 

[Grailhunter]

G,,,either Jesus was God or he was a man.
I don't see any other way.

Yahweh God the father Almighty and supreme God and creator God.
Yeshua God the Son.....Savior....Messiah
The Unnamed God.....the Holy Spirit.....helper....guide....the communicator.
All Gods that set on thrones....Yeshua sits to the right of the Father.

FYI No one knows where the word Jesus comes from
The Greek word in the scriptures that they use for Christ's name is not a name it means healer.
Christ's name is Yeshua....
Oddly enough the Name of God the Father and God the Son are not in the scriptures. Yahweh's name was removed 6,800 times from the Old Testament and replaced with the words God or Lord or both and Yeshua name does appear in the Old Testament because it was a common name but does not appear in the New Testament.
No J's in the Bible.....J's only appear in English and the J came out in the 1400's and Shakespeare made it popular and the King James Version adopted the J's and eventually the word Jesus.
No J's in the scriptures......Job is Yob....Joshua is Yeshua.....James is Yames.....Jerico is Yerico etc

 

[ProDeo]

@Brakelite @Jack @Grailhunter @David in NJ @HealthyShape @Aunty Jane @Truly

In John 1:14 we read that the Word “tabernacled” among us. This echoes Exodus 25:8–9, where God established His dwelling place among His people. Jesus, Immanuel, functioned as a sanctuary (Isa. 8:14; Ex. 33:9; 40:35). Born and raised from among fallen humanity, the child and the man Jesus became the perfect tabernacle or temple in whom the glory, not the divine nature, but the character of the Father dwelt (John 2:19–21; Matt. 12:6).

John knew Jesus by name, yet he used the term Logos. Why? Because the Old Testament use of the Word/Logos points us to the conclusion that Jesus is not God Himself, but the one in whom God’s presence and character were manifested through suffering. God granted him life and immortality, making him the firstborn and the firstfruits, and apart from him, none of us could have the hope of eternal life.

Once this reality is revealed, Scripture becomes unified and consistent, and the tensions created by the doctrine of the Trinity fall away.

For example:

If Jesus were already God in the highest sense, then how could he inherit anything? Scripture says he inherits all things and receives a greater name (Heb. 1:2, 4–5; Acts 2:36; Phil. 2:9; Rev. 5:12). Inheritance belongs to one who is given possession, not one who already possesses it by nature.

If Jesus were God in himself, how could he be raised up and granted immortality or eternal life? Psalm 21:4 says he asked life of God, and John 5:26 states that the Father gave the Son to have life in himself. Receiving life indicates dependence, not self-existence.

If Jesus were already a divine Son, how could God pierce a servant and make him a son (forever)? The law of the bond–servant (Deut. 15:17) pictures one who chooses to serve and is marked forever. Psalm 40:6–8 and Hebrews 10:5–7 apply this to Christ: He is raised up out of Adam (second Adam) as the obedient Servant, fulfills the Father's will, and is exalted as Son and heir. If he were already Son in the ultimate sense, this process would be unnecessary.

How can God pierce a Servant who pre-exists as an eternal Son?

These and many more contradictions are found in the teaching of the Trinity.

Yahweh
Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Jesus
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Jesus calling Himself as one with Yahweh.

Give it up friend.

 

[Lambano]

No J's in the scriptures......Job is Yob....Joshua is Yeshua.....James is Yames.....Jerico is Yerico etc

Actually, James is "Yakob". I wonder how much King James paid the translators to get all the Iakobs in the New Testament changed to to "James"?

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually, James is "Yakob". I wonder how much King James paid the translators to get all the Iakobs in the New Testament changed to to "James"?

I thought that was Jacob