How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Jack]

John 1 The Word WAS GOD!

Jesus is God.

 

[Grailhunter]

That is an interesting read.....and has honest alternatives to express doubt in many cases. Credit for that.

But doubt can only be expressed because there is not one clear statement by either God or his Son that they are one and the same God. For such an important issue concerning the very nature of God himself, shouldn’t there be clear categorical statements throughout the Bible confirming this truth?

In the Hebrew texts for example the plural denoted by “Elohím” can be the plural of majesty. “The Royal WE”......and that the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 is describing the teamwork between Father and Son with the use of God’s spirit to provide the awesome power necessary to bring creation into existence? (Col 1:15-17) The Bible tells us that all things were created “through” the Son.....which denotes agency...something mentioned often in your quote.

If no such clear, unequivocal statements exist, could it be because every single scripture quoted as evidence for the trinity bases it’s conclusion on suggestion or supposition?

Isn’t this how science replaced the Creator with evolution? Every single piece of scientific “evidence” for evolution was based on what the evidence “suggested” in the scientist’s opinions....heavily biased in one direction. Don’t we see exactly the same method used to promote a doctrine that the Bible does not explicitly teach? Is suggestion and conjecture a substitute for clear unequivocal statements?

Why does it matter? Something Jesus said...makes it matter.

“Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.” (John 17:3-4 NET)

Jesus made knowing “the only true God” AND the one he “sent”, a salvation issue. If the God we know is not the same one whom Jesus served, then we are worshipping a false god, in contravention of the first Commandment given to Israel. (Exodus 20:3; Deut 6:4)

Then we have to ask, why then is knowing the third and equal person of the trinity, not mentioned?

Jesus said that he came to glorify his Father, not himself. He was doing the work he was “sent” to do as “God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27, 30) He was completing God’s work.....and asking to be restored to the glory he had before the world was created. So we know that he was in existence...at his Father’s side, before material creation existed.

Jesus is often spoken of as being at God’s right hand, and yet not one Scripture says that the Holy Spirit is at his left.....
In Col 1:15, Paul speaks of Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation” and states that all creation came through the son.....that is agency. (John 1:2-3) Another clear statement.

Prov 8:22-31 prophetically confirms his role...

“The Lord [Yahweh in the original Hebrew] created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. From eternity I have been fashioned, from the beginning, from before the world existed. When there were no deep oceans I was born, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were set in place—before the hills—I was born, before he made the earth and its fields, or the top soil of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he marked out the horizon over the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above, when he secured the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea his decree that the waters should not pass over his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him as a master craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, rejoicing before him at all times, rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and delighting in its people.” (NET)

The existence of God’s son goes back way before creation…he was “the beginning“ of God’s “works”.
Rev 3:14 says that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”….so when you have clear statements, how can you ignore them?

Ĕlōhīm [(ʔ)eloˈ(h)im]) is a Hebrew word meaning "gods" or "godhood". Although the word is plural in form, in the Hebrew Bible it most often takes singular verbal or pronominal agreement and refers to a single deity, particularly but not always the God of Judaism. In other verses it takes plural agreement and refers to pagan gods in the plural.

Morphologically, the word is the plural form of the word אֱלוֹהַּ[a] (ʾĔlōah) and related to El. It is cognate to the word ʾl-h-m which is found in Ugaritic, where it is used as the pantheon for Canaanite gods, the children of El, and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim". Most uses of the term Elohim in the later Hebrew text imply a view that is at least monolatrist at the time of writing, and such usage (in the singular), as a proper title for Deity, is distinct from generic usage as elohim, "gods" (plural, simple noun).

Rabbinic scholar Maimonides wrote that Elohim "Divinity" and elohim "gods" are commonly understood to be homonyms.[1] One modern theory suggests that the term elohim originated from changes in the early period of the Semitic languages and the development of Biblical Hebrew. In this view, the Proto-Semitic *ʾilāh- originated as a broken plural of *ʾil-, but was reanalyzed as singular "god" due to the shape of its unsuffixed stem and the possibility of interpreting suffixed forms like *ʾilāh-ū-ka (literally: "your gods") as a polite way of saying "your god"; thus the morphologically plural form elohim would have also been considered a polite way of addressing the singular God of the Israelites.[2]

 

[ProDeo]

Genesis 6 suggests there were some naughty angels before then

1 Cor 11:10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Paul was a believer of the angelic interpretation of Gen 6.

 

[Grailhunter]

He either coexisted eternally with the Father or he was created. You can’t have it both ways. @Aunty Jane and the JWs believe he was created and are using Proverbs 8 as proof.
I believe Jesus coexisted eternally with the Father (John 1) and that Proverbs 8 is speaking of Wisdom

,
He either coexisted with the Father or He was created or He was born. The Bible says He was born.....begotten....
conceived.....Miriam impregnated.....In the New Testament Yahweh had a Son, in the Old Testament He did not have a Son, it was just Him. He said, The Lord your God is one and there is no other God.

Nothing about the pre-existing Yeshua shrinking Himself down as a fetus and flying into Miriam's womb.

 

[ProDeo]

The Old Testament is pretty large volume. Yahweh spoke to people and the prophets were speaking. Plenty of time for Yahweh to speak of the Devil to people and plenty of time to warn them if he was a threat. They do not waist to much time in the New Testament.

The association with the serpent and Satan is New Testament, but no talking serpents in the New Testament.

The Lake of Fire isn't mentioned in Genesis, not the whole OT, not even in the NT, only in Revelation.

Your Plenty of time for Yahweh to speak is no good logic to proof a point.

 

[Jack]

The Lake of Fire isn't mentioned in Genesis, not the whole OT, not even in the NT, only in Revelation.

Your Plenty of time for Yahweh to speak is no good logic to proof a point.

Hell Fire, Everlasting Fire, the Furnace of Fire are clearly mentioned by Jesus.

 

[ProDeo]

It is not deceptive. Deception is intentionally causing someone to believe something that is false or misleading.

The shield is a helpful tool that is imperfect. Because no graphical representation or verbal example can represent the mystery of Trinity fully.

Yep and every analogy fails also.

The Trinity is all over the OT and NT, it's not meant to be understood, but to believe.

 

[soberxp]

Yep and every analogy fails also.

The Trinity is all over the OT and NT, it's not meant to be understood, but to believe.

It's completely unreasonable. Should believe in the Word, not the Trinity.

A complete misunderstanding.

The word became flesh, not God became flesh.

The word was God, now the word is Jesus Christ and Holy spirit.

Eve was made for help Adam.

Holy spirit for help the Believers.

Not the same thing, but the word of God and the will of God .

Not the three are God, but the will of God,and from God.

Only The continuation of two(Adam and Eve) becoming one.

Only the will of God. All became one word(became flesh) of God.

Became the will of God as Jesus Christ did.he was not following his own will but the father.

 

[ProDeo]

It's completely unreasonable.

Exactly, that's why some people reject it, whatever Scripture is offered.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can we remember the names of any of them?


I guess you forgot to notice that Revelation is speaking about Jesus.


Did you not know that the 3 Persons of the Trintiy speak to each other?
This might be due to the fact that you don't accept the Trinity.


Oh my.
Was Jesus a Person of dignity?
Thomas called Him God.
Why didn't Jesus correct Him?

It would be nice to get into the stoning of Stephen too...
Could you tell us WHY Stephen was stoned?
Acts 7:54-59

What's the difference?


Hebrews 11:26
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown * up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Jesus existed even at the time of the OT.


Peter confirmed Jesus was THE CHRIST....
Matthew 16:16
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

NOT a son
THE son.

A monnogenius son....
unique.

Who rose Jesus from the dead?

God Father
Acts 2:24
24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible * for Him to be held in its power.

God Son
John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


Only God can raise from the dead.


If together they brought all into existence
BEFORE TIME BEGAN
Then they were both eternal and only God is eternal.

Logos is more than a "mouthpiece".

Only God can judge the soul of a person.
Each Person of the Trinity does have their own particular work to accomplish...
although is unison.

Agreed.
This is why Jesus is God.

I would add that Jesus is the creator of all things and the Father said, "All things were created through Jesus."
What a dilemma for watchtower followers. Because now we have Jesus creating himself, since they declare Jesus is a created being.

 

[rebuilder 454]

For the co-existant folks it would have been good if Yahweh said in the Old Testament …..Except for Yeshua I am the only God and there is no other like me. But he gave no exceptions and in fact said that He created everything.

Now Yahweh AND Yeshua AND the Holy Spirits are full fledged Gods, But Yahweh is unique in that He is the Supreme God and at times the Apostles made that distinction calling Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord.

Like this….

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2nd Corinthians 13:14

Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible. Ephesians 6:23-24

Except that in hebrews it says, " it pleased the Father that the Son is supreme."

 

[rebuilder 454]

The op:
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

Answer , through Revelation by the Holy Spirit.

....same with all truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would add that Jesus is the creator of all things and the Father said, "All things were created through Jesus."
What a dilemma for watchtower followers. Because now we have Jesus creating himself, since they declare Jesus is a created being.

Exactly!
Great point.

If Jesus created everything, then He is outside of time.
If He is outside of time,,,then by definition, He is God.

Only God is outside of time.

The watchmaker is not PART of the watch.

 

[Grailhunter]

Except that in hebrews it says, " it pleased the Father that the Son is supreme."

Show me this verse in Hebrews....

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me this verse in Hebrews....

Hmmmm. I also can't remember....
@rebuilder 454 might be thinking of Colossians 1:18-19

Maybe.
We shall soon see.

 

[Muna]

Show me this verse in Hebrews....

I have these which confirm one another


Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said,
Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[St. SteVen]

The op:
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

Answer , through Revelation by the Holy Spirit.

Yes. At least we would hope so.
There is certainly good biblical evidence of such.

Doctrine is man-made, so there must have been agreement at the council level.
Eventually that doctrine found its way into creeds.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

I know the Shield and the basics of Trinity. Trinity is not about three co-equal Gods.

Stop talking nonsense. You have been corrected multiple times and you still continue with the nonsense like if you could not read or something.

You're so enmeshed in falsehood you can't see what the shield is even actually saying in its imagery.

When you defend a man made doctrine that counters God,you haven't corrected those who know the truth. You're defending falsehood.

You should read the article I linked. The historic evidence might open your eyes.
The Bible never speaks about one triune God consisting of three co-equal Gods of Father, Son and Holy Spirit

 

[Grailhunter]

Exactly!
Great point.

If Jesus created everything, then He is outside of time.
If He is outside of time,,,then by definition, He is God.

Only God is outside of time.

The watchmaker is not PART of the watch.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9
There is none holy like the Lord: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God. 1st Samuel 2:2
Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22
That all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60
There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20
I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, Isaiah 45:5

 

[Hiddenthings]

Believe whatever you want but don't try to force your beliefs on others, it's a bad idea

What is important is this:

You misquoted Ephesians and failed to read its context opting to place your fallen angel theology over the text.

Ephesians 4:14
Paul warns the ecclesia not to be misled by deceptive teachers: “So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.”

Ephesians 5:6 A direct warning about false words and empty teaching: “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

3. Ephesians 6:11–12 Paul warns about “schemes” that oppose the believers this includes false teaching: “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.(false accusers)”

By your own hand, you declared that the word devil means “false accuser,” and the very letters of that word describe those who, through human cunning and deceit, seek to mislead others in the same way you yourself were once deceived.

Let's see if this is a consistent message RLT?

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Well, what do you know RLT - there it is again! Adversary here is being interpreted for you as the "things of man" and not some supernatural fallen angel.

This discussion has not gone well for you - it started in Ezekial 28 and you learned all about God's lament toward the King of Tyre and now you have learned about the context of Ephesians and who precisely Paul had in mind in Chapter 6:11-12.

There is still a lot of ground to cover before that dreaded doctrine is totally removed from you though!