I haven't met more than a few mormons, but I was raised in a Roman Catholic family and I'd be hard pressed to find 2 that actually believed all the same things. The word of God is the only basis upon which to build faith, but salvation comes through the gospel. Spiritually young believers are at the greatest risk of being drawn away by the cults, simply because the Cultic doctrines appeal to the fleshly nature and the carnal mind. We all have carnal minds until we've invested the time in fellowship with God in His word and become renewed in our thinking.
How do you think Christians should interact with Mormons?
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I don't understand why someone assumes another is in a "cult" without talking to them directly or "anti-cult" ministries whom say "come here, only *I * can teach the the truth about ____, otherwise you/ll be tricked and burn in Hell". Go an see/think for yourself.
No Christian (of any sub-group) needs to fear understanding another person's beliefs and coming to understand/love them better.
The bible teaches specific instructions regarding relationships within the church and without. Christians are not supposed to treat everyone equally, but instead are to hold other Christians to a higher standard of behavior than those outside the church and to avoid hospitality specifically to those preaching another gospel (and consequently anathema Maranatha, or accursed at Christ's return.)
I have no reason to apply the latter to you as you are not proselytizing for the LDS, nor sharing another gospel. However, I have every reason to apply the first principle to you as you profess a Christian belief in Christ (as far as I can discern from your posts.)
I can be a rebellious soul and ignore the admonition of scripture, or I can choose obedience and attempt to conform to the commandments and exhortations of scripture. Those are really my only two options.
The testimony of scripture is that it is complete in the Revelation of God in the person of His Son and also that it is entirely sufficient to teach one how to live a godly life in Christ Jesus.
If we believe scripture, then scripture alone is inspired by God, and supplemental writings presenting "new Revelation " are defined as deceitful works crafted by the imagination of men or the outright works of Satan. If the founder of the church of the latter day saints claimed to see God the Father and lived, his experience directly contradicted scripture and everything that he said or wrote can be safely disregarded.
Years ago, I obtained a free copy of the book of Mormon from the church of the LDS, but only read the first few chapters. In my perception there was no comparison between it and scripture, no Spirit or life to be found in its content. Consequently I had no reason to read further and be tempted by carnal imaginings.
I can feel compassion for those raised under false teachings, but there is no reconciliation between the truth and lies, even if those lies are unintentional indoctrination.
Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and that they will not hear another. Chapter 10 of John's gospel uses these terms to explain that God calls people to faith in Jesus Christ alone and that those that are called by Him will not hear (or listen) to the voice of another. The context of the chapter is entirely about following God through Jesus Christ versus hearing and following imposters. A large portion of the epistles of the new Testament are concerned as well with false teachers and false gospels.
No biblically informed Christian will ever accept extra biblical teachings as inherently true or in any manner equal to scripture. If you associate yourself with the LDS, born again or not, biblical Christianity can only see you as a member of a cult and treat you as outside the body of Christ.
It isn't our responsibility to readily accept you as Christian, but rather its your responsibility to examine the inconsistencies between biblical doctrine and the teachings of your church and to make a decision about who you believe in, the God of scripture or the doctrines of your church. You may be able to reconcile the two to your understanding, but it is impossible for biblical Christianity to do so.
A very rational post * thumbs up *
Needless to say I am not Sola Scriptura and hold a different interpretation of that Revelation verses: that it is referring to the Book of Revelation itself which John's writings repeated referenced. Similar to how in ~Deuteronomy there's a similar verse about the Law of Moses. The Bible was not compiled till years later, and it's questionable whether certain other sections were written then.
Plus, it just doesn't make sense to me that an unchanging God would stop speaking and giving scripture.
I acknowledge your view there, even while I passionately disagree.
Thank you for your kindness under pressure. I am not in total agreement with the doctrines of the reformation for similar reasons to your last objection. The notion that God no longer speaks to people is actually in direct contradiction to scripture. The notion that the gifts of the Spirit were apostolic and ceased with the completion of the modern canon of scripture can only be supported by changing the plain meaning of text. I have been witness to the works of the Holy Spirit and on the rarest of occasions have heard the "still small voice" directing my way in difficult situations. Even so, the purpose of the bible is clearly the revelation of God in the person of His Son. Those with His Spirit can see Him frequently in the pages of the Old Testament and it was the Lord Himself who declared "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me." John 5:39
The Revelation of God in the person of His Son is complete. The redemption of humanity through the sacrifice of our Lord is complete. The judgment of the ruler of this world is complete, if not fully executed. The judgment of sin and the vindication of righteousness is complete in Him. The Holy Spirit of God is given to those who believe Him and ask to receive Him, as the seal of redemption, as the power of God in our works, as the teacher of truth and the guide into all righteousness. This is the testimony of scripture.
So, while God still speaks to give His children guidance until the day of the redemption of our bodies. We who believe have not just God with us, but God in us.
All His revealed plan is accomplished except the final judgment of those that reject Him, and that judgment as revealed by scripture takes the form of the acceptance of the "mark of the beast", the rejection of the Son of God for the false doctrines of men and the elevation of man to the seat of God. This of itself seems like more than enough to reject the claims of pretenders from Mohammed to Joseph Smith. Their visions and false prophecies do not lead to life, but instead have lead to wars, transgressions, rebellion, violence, rape, murder, and surely the condemnation of those who prefer a lie to the truth.
History speaks volumes to religious abuses, but our Lord never taught the way of transgression and rebellion to the authority. The LDS, like the nation that gave it birth, was born in rebellion not just to legal authority, but to scriptural authority, as well as to the spiritual authority of those elders that Joseph Smith denied with every lie he told or recorded in the name of God. There is a curse upon him and his household as it is written in the book of Zechariah the prophet.
3 Then he said to me, “This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth: ‘Every thief shall be expelled,’ according to this side of the scroll; and, ‘Every perjurer shall be expelled,’ according to that side of it.”
4 “I will send out the curse,” says the Lord of hosts;
“It shall enter the house of the thief
And the house of the one who swears falsely by My name.
It shall remain in the midst of his house
And consume it, with its timber and stones.” Zechariah 5:3-4
This curse is the final judgment at Christ's return upon all the pretenders, all those who have spoken falsely in the name of God, and upon all their houses. It was met in Jerusalem in 70AD against the temple of the Jews who rejected the Lord in fulfillment of His prophetic word, and will be met again at His return, this time against the kingdom of God upon this Earth, and according to the words of our Lord. The Lord is a consuming fire.
It's hard to see Love in such perspective, but there's nothing loving in allowing violence and iniquity to persist without justice and retribution. A reckoning is coming, and even now is here. The Lord is patient, long suffering our evil works, giving respite even in judgment, giving room for repentance and salvation through the gospel of our Lord, but look around you. Smell the smoke, feel the wrath of "nature", witness the shaking of the Earth and tremble, God is not mocked.
Judgment begins in the house of God.
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator. 1 Peter 4:17-19
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There’s a lot packed into your post here. I think the best way to respond is to focus on the most important topics. Yes God does indeed still speak to men. I very strongly believe that spiritual gifts still continue, revelation to the world at large still continues, and to each individual person whom seeks Him. That relationship between an individual & God is absolutely critical. He saves, speaks, guides, and answers questions. The still small voice is real. A deep testimony of Truth comes individually through His Spirit testifying.
For me, I must follow Christ for He is my Lord & Savior. He is my light, and my guide. I go where He commands and off His testimony. It’s not about a charismatic pastor, or social pressures, or Joseph Smith, or any other sinner. Honestly I get super annoyed ay how much other folks want to talk about them over talking about Christ. My believes are carved from intensive & Spirit-filled studies, and that is my focus. . I can only ethically follow the path I find God to be leading me down, and likewise acknowledge that about other folks including when our thoughts are different. Anyone whom is diligently studying, praying, and continually learning is cause for celebration – wherever they are on the path.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Thank you Jane Doe. I kind of wish this forum had denominations for faith. "Christian" is too broad IMO. I worked with a Mormon some years ago. Once of the most decent people I have ever met.
At home I have bookmarked a vid I could show you later. Unlike @michaelvpardo, I don't want to delve into your understanding of God but rather your understanding of Salvation by Grace. In short, the vid I have is the testimony of a young man who converted during a missionary trip to Florida. He essentially said he was taught a salvation by works doctrine. Could you elaborate on that?
Thanks in advance and make a blessed day!
I actually know the video you are talking about.
All Christians believe that salvation is a gift from God and you can’t buy it / earn it yourself. In fact the very idea of a pitiful human buying/earning their own salvation is laughably absurd. However, just because salvation a gift from God doesn’t mean you can laugh off the commandments of God or have a license to sin. Rather He says “If you love me, keep my commandments”.
Now we humans can really struggle to understand both sides of the above. There are folks, particularly in Protestant circles, that misunderstand the above and think that any suggestion that a disciple of Christ should keep the commandments of God = trying to work your way to salvation. LDS Christians do indeed strongly teach that “you should strive to follow Christ” and some folks (particularly young ones) can miss the reason why that is. It’s the classic teenage spirit of “Dad you just always want to tell me what to do!” without understanding motivation behind it.
For the young man in that video, he went from being one such LDS Christian teenager to the other extreme Protestant camp and ended up with the mindset of essentially “You telling me what to do means you’re trying to make me work for my salvation and that’s wrong!”. It really is a still lack of understanding that salvation is a gift and disciples should strive to follow Christ because they love Him.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Jane,
I have made some threads regarding this, you might have noticed them, but as a Mormon, are you concerned for America's future, politically, culturally, and otherwise? Are most Mormons today concerned by the rising tide of secular atheism and godlessness, the immense popularity of drugs and alcohol and the party lifestyle, and the increasingly tense turmoil and fragmentation within American society, the deep divisions in the United States? Do you think America is possibly a fallen nation, or at least in danger of being so?
Peace and blessings! And thank you so much!
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure a trinitarian who also subscribes to antinomianism is in any position to tell others that God must be worshiped in spirit and truth, because both of those beliefs have absolutely no truth in them. I'm also sure you don't appreciate the fact that virtually all professing Christian groups uses occult symbols. The crucifix, the halo, and the fish symbols are all occult symbols that predate Christ's birth by centuries.
It's a little appreciated fact in Catholicism and Protestantism that the popular crucifix symbol was used by the Tammuz cult(hence the crucifix's "t" shape), the halo was used by sun worshiping cults that were condemned in the OT, and the fish symbol that was supposedly used by the 1st century Christians(according to Catholics and Protestants) was used by the Philistine Dagon cult. That's without counting the Christmas trees that are usually seen in Catholic and Protestant churches, which itself is an occult symbol. One of the few things the mainstream "Christian" groups can agree on is sticking to the narrative that it's ok to use these things as Christian.
Growth isn't an inherent sign that God is behind it. If that were the only thing someone was to look for, then they might as well be Catholic. The Bible tallks about the Roman Catholic Church having worldwide influence, and yet it is undeniably called a false church all the same. The Bible says Christ's flock is small(Luk. 12:23) and that few would be on the road to life(Matt. 7:14). Conversely, the Bible also says many would be deceived into following a false Christ(Matt. 24:5) an that many are on the road to destruction(Matt. 7:13). There is something about the few that separates them from the many, and the Bible tells us exactly what it is:
"And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." - Rev. 12:17
"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." - Rev. 14:12
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." - 1 Jhn 2:3
The first passage is extremely important, because it states beyond a shadow of a doubt who Christ's true followers are and who Satan's true enemies are in this world: the people who keep God's commandments. Any church, group, or individual that doesn't keep the 10 commandments as a way of life is not truly Christian, especially if they actively teach against keeping those commandments.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
God always has law, as I’ve made absolutely clear in past posts, but today it’s NOT the law of Moses, but the law of love which completely fulfills the essence of Gods law, aka the law of Christ, and the royal law, and this law is summed up in the two love commands that supersede the ended Decalogue, and with it, the ceremonial day of rest that foreshadowed Jesus.
A lot to unpack here:Jane,
I have made some threads regarding this, you might have noticed them, but as a Mormon, are you concerned for America's future, politically, culturally, and otherwise? Are most Mormons today concerned by the rising tide of secular atheism and godlessness, the immense popularity of drugs and alcohol and the party lifestyle, and the increasingly tense turmoil and fragmentation within American society, the deep divisions in the United States? Do you think America is possibly a fallen nation, or at least in danger of being so?
Peace and blessings! And thank you so much!
I happen to be American, but majority of "Mormons" aren't. Christ's Church is not something to be bound to one Earthly nation. Citizens of all nations should work to improve their communities as a disciple of God but also just as citizen of the community. There are SO many problems out there, people whom are hurting due to their sins, the sins of others, and just things like cars accidents and natural disasters. And yes, we should preach the word of God- bring hearts closer to God will heal wounds faster than just treating symptoms.
That all being said, specific earhtly politics do NOT belong at the pulpit. It GREATLY disturbs me to hear anyone say something like "a Christian is morally obligated to vote for Trump", or churches hosting political rallies, etc. Separation of Church and State is important.
How do you think Christians should interact with Mormons?
The same way we are called to interact with all non-believers.
I am confused lately as to what depicts a Christian... AT one time a Christian used to be defined as someone who believes Jesus is God.
This is not how people are identifying themselves... which is fine...but confusing none the less.
The same way we are called to interact with all non-believers.
I am confused lately as to what depicts a Christian... AT one time a Christian used to be defined as someone who believes Jesus is God.
This is not how people are identifying themselves... which is fine...but confusing none the less.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
God began life and when He finished, He told Adam and Eve and the rest of us to be fruitful and multiply. Growth of His chosen nation must promised. He told Abraham that His seed would be as the stars. The Gospel was spread to grow the numbers of the Church or which the remnant is 1/3.
He prospers us in every way, thay's growth. We grow spiritually more like Christ.
The puny numbers that the Mormkns or JW's show is an example that the Holy Spirit is not frowing your church. We don't have a weak God who can only save 1 out of 500 people.
The Catholic Church (however imperfect) carried the Gospel for 1000 years before God intervened and sent Martin Luther to make some corrections.
We certainly didn't need some young imaginative story telling, treasure hunting, lad to put on a pyramid shaped hat _ gaze into a crystal ball _ enter into a trance to channel some spirit in order to receive fabricated stories minced with thousands of plagarized Biblical scriptures which were supposedly translated from two ancient Egyptian plates that no one ever saw _ that described a civilization in the Americas that never existed.
The prerequisite for salvation that I picked up from all my 30 years of study was that we believe in the gospel which can be worded in one sentence: Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. Obviously, if we have faith in Him, we must know Him, trust Him and obey Him. Faith is a gift, not earned by works so that no one can boast. So God enables us to believe. Catholics believe in Jesus. Protestants and non-denominational Christians believe in Jesus. None of us are perfect. We were shown that all through scripture. Look at the Seven Letters to the Churches in Revelation, only two out of seven were faithful and righteous. The rest needed to repent, because of sin and false doctrine. It's the same story today!
1/3 is small. 1/500 is evidence that something is seriously wrong.
True
Love God with all your heart mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. All other laws fall under these to.
We hold onto those commandments, keep them in our hearts. They are part of our belief system. They are precious. Possessing them does not mean we will fulfill the requirements of them perfectly, no. We practice and fail but we hold onto them as our moral compass. Remember the Jews could not fulfill the Law, why would you think we could now, it is not the yoke that we were given.
"By their fruit you will know them", is one I prefer to use.
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"Mormon" believe that Jesus Christ is God. He is the Son of God, 100% divine. He, along with the Father, and Spirit are 3 different persons in 1 God.
The Bible defines a Christian as a disciple of Christ. The reason this term gets confusing is when folks then add a theological test of "well, you can only be a Christian if you agree to the post-Biblical Creeds", etc. So that gets messier.
I believe that separation of church and state is perhaps necessary - but I also believe the Founders wanted us to at least acknowledge a higher power in our politics, not necessarily bound to any organized religion, but from their writings, their faith was a strong component of their personal and political identity.
I agree with your statement that no Christian should be bound to any political party or leader - yet do most Mormons like Mitt Romney? What did they think of the previous President or the Republican Party?
In the USA, "Mormons" are predominately Republican. Mitt Romney (who's been both a Democrat and a Republican) is pretty popular. Trump was/is very unpopular, so much so it was speculated that Utah might as a state go to a independent candidate in the 2016 election. Partially due to Trump, there's been a lot more people voting for non-Republican candidates and/or swapping parties.
I myself was quite disgusted with all mainstream candidates presented in 2016 and 2020 and ethically had to vote 3rd party.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Since believing Jesus is God is NOT a requirement for salvation in Scripture, it is confusing how so many conduct themselves as though it were.
Identifying oneself as a Christian is crystal clear if one reads and understands Scripture. Jesus said Follow Me. People are Christian if they follow Jesus. Nuff Said.
If any of you want to be my followers, you must forget about yourself. You must take up your cross and follow me. 25 If you want to save your life,[a] you will destroy it. But if you give up your life for me, you will find it. 26 What will you gain, if you own the whole world but destroy yourself? What would you give to get back your soul?
Matthew 16:24-26 (CEV)
If one is going to socialise with mormons then one should be as well read about what the 'church of later day saints' does teach and practise so as to be able to evangelise among them.
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