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How Does God Know?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by rdventen, May 21, 2010.

  1. rdventen

    rdventen New Member

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    How can God know everything?

    Well for starters I sure don't know, and I'm sure no one Else does. Though I'm sure allot of people will say that it is because God plained the beginning to the end, kind of like a story book. If that is so then life is no more then a joke played on mankind. There is nothing wrong with wondering how God knows everything, but it is wrong for us to think that we have no choice how our life may turn out. The Bible is full of places were God say for us to chose to do good or evil. What is your answer?
     
  2. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Well, you will get some religious folks get on here and say God was just Joking when he asked Adam if he ate of the tree. Did not God already know?

    How bout when God went to go take a look at the tower of Babel.

    Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

    Why would the Lord have to come down and see if he planed everything from start to finish? He should have known already and not wasted his time going down to look.

    Isa 38:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

    Now why did not God know Hezekiah would repent? How did Hezekiah change the Lords mind about him dying?

    If your full of religious dumbness, you would say God knew already, but he had to let Hezekiah know first, so Hezekiah would do what the Lord already knew Hezekiah would do.

    Why did God send Jonah to warn a city, take the trouble of putting Jonah in a fish, just to hear them repent anyway? Surely God knew. OH, they needed Jonah to tell them so they could decide what God already knew would happen. Got it.

    Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

    Now you can't tell me that Jesus, I mean Jesus himself had to walk over to see if there were really any figs on that tree or not. Cmon, He is Jesus.........someone must have messed up this scripture......


    I think the question would be rdventen. Does God really Choose to know everything?

    Here is something else to think about. We are created just like God, and can fellowship on His level. Think of the Joy the Father gets if he really can't determine fully our choices, because we are like him, and the Joy he gets because he knows we choose him on our own accord...............

    Of course the religious folks hate talk like this.............

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  3. rdventen

    rdventen New Member

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  4. perrero

    perrero Active Member

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    I totally agre in this post and am certainly not afraid of this kind of talk. I will propose these thoughts to you which for myself have helped tremendously in sorting out this free will, yet foreknowledge of God stuff.

    Does God know everything? YES --------- However what is the definition of everyting.
    1) I surmise that the definition is that God knows everything about Himself, His plans and His own thoughts as they unfold. I do not believe that God knows all the thoughts He will have in the future. Not knowing this does not make Him less God.
    Ex: Eons of years ago in God's past, did God know that He would eventually decide to create Angels, and then a universe and then Humans? I say NO. If God always knew this then He would have no choice but to go through with it. This would always mean that God is not a creative God, but a robotic God going through the motions that is already laid out in His mind.

    2) God knows everything that He creates. Nothing is hidden because He created it. Space, matter, the universe, atoms, energy, you name it none of that is hidden.

    3) God also knows every thought that enters our mind. As we formulate thoughts He is there, right by our side, listening to our own reasonings.

    So my revised definition is God knows everything that is knowable.
    In other words FUTURE thoughts cannot be known (NOT KNOWABLE) because they do not exist. Did God know that Adam was going to choose sin?
    How could He, when Adam was not even created and thus incapable of thinking or even making that choice. It is something that is not knowable. Does that dimishe God's all-knowing power? Not in the least.

    Did God know that Abraham was really going to go through with the sacrifice of his son? I think God knew 99.9% that Abraham was going to be faithful and trust God, but only in that split second of time when Abraham lifted the knife did He know. Not even when the knife was lifted in the air would anyone know not even Abraham. It is when that split second decision when Abe stopped lifting his arm and ..................then began the downward swing that it could be known. Gen (22:12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    Do you see where I'm coming from? Until a decision is made, it has no existence. There's nothing to be known. That is true free will. So that when man choose God, HE is ELATED, and when man sins and rejects Him He is truly GRIEVED. But if God knew this all along, then why not just play chess against Himself or play in a huge sandbox with a bunch of GI Joe human, ripping an arm here and sending another to hell there.

    Did God know that the Israelites were going to throw their babys into the fires of Molech? After all the deliverances, the victories, the blessings, the cloud, the fire by night, no way could His people do that. YET -----Jer (32:35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    Was God grieved? You better believe it.

    Do we honestly think that God needs angels to adore Him? Does He really need a relationship with humans to love Him?

    However God in His infinite love and compassion wanted to share this with other beings. And so He started with Angels. Not robot angels but free will angels who would experience the very presence of God before His throne and would have the capacity (free will) to respond accordingly. Which I believe they all did in the beginning until one prideful and selfish archangels, Lucifer, thought Himself better than God, and this to His demise. Did God know Lucifer would rebel? How could He? Until Lucifer was created, and he formulated the plan in his mind, that very choice or thought was non-existent, not knowable. Does that diminish God? Not in the least.
    God did know of the possibility, of angels or men, to reject and rebel against Him. It is to be expected when you give them bona fide free will.

    For the angels it was worse than man. Because they chose to rebel even though they had been created in the very presence of God. Where we cannot see that kind of Glory lest we die. And so there was no redemption for them. He had to created a hell for their banishment. And I don't believe in the hogwash of "If God is a God of love, how can He send people to hell." God is also a God of Justice and Righteousness and to not send them to hell would eradicate that attribute of His.

    I believe that within the council of God, when they decided to create man, they also knew of the possibility of man's sin. Let's face it, it happened with the angels, but not all. But in the event that man would sin God went an extra step. Jesus out of Extreme love, love of the Godhead for us, decided that He would come and take the penalty of death. Not knowing a decision that had yet to occur, nevertheless "THE LAMB WAS SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

    Now do these ideas raise many other questions? Sure they do, but I tackle them one at a time.

    I think I've said enough for now.
     
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  5. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    the fact is that he could know everything if he wanted to, but he chooses not to.

    We know this because God gives all of us a choice and he doesnt look into our futures to know beforehand what choice we will make. This is evidenced by the fact that he created Adam he did not forewarn him that he would be mislead into sin.... he did not look into Satans future and prevent him from entering the garden of eden to seduce Eve....he did not tell eve that Snakes dont talk so if she hears one talking to her she should immediately ignore it.

    It is because of free will that he chooses not to look into our individual futures.


    However, there are future things that he does look into. They are things to do with his purposes. When he purposed to redeem mankind he knew exactly how that would pan out. When he choose to free the isrealites from slavery, he knew exactly how to do it and how it would be fulfilled. When he purposed to create a nation from the man Abraham, he knew exactly where they would live and how they would obtain that land. He knew that some would fall away to false religion, he knew that some would rebel against him but he did not know which individuals would do such things because he prefers to let man pave his own course.
     
  6. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    The premise of the opening post introduces two separate topics, either of which can be discussed in great detail. The existance of free will in man is not necessarily linked to the ability of God to 'know' what is going on in His own creation.

    For my part, I intend to restrict my comment to the title of the thread; How does God know everything?

    God is a spirit. Not simply A spirit, but the Great Spirit which fills all the universe. He has created everything, sustains everything and ends everything as He pleases.

    A few posts back the individual there expressed massive confusion with the fact that God practices delegation of authority.

    All good leaders do.

    For those who are unfamiliar with the principle let me just say that delegation of authority is the method by which a leader assigns tasks or responsibilities to a lesser person or entity for management. The greatest example of this is God's delegation of all natural authority to man. Humanity has total authority over all creation while God retains all authority over history; hence His title - King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    Closer to home it may be observed that although God may intervene with miraculous cures for the ailments of man, His primary choice is to allow the advancement of the medical arts, that men may enjoy that portion of God's authority which is delegated for the healing of all.

    God knows all because He IS all. That He has chosen to delegate some of His authority to lesser beings is a mark of His excellent leadership.
     
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  7. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

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    Excellent thread!
    This will be hard for some to believe - I don't care -

    One night in bed looking at the swirly things "behind my eyelids" - the
    colored lights moving all over in the "dark" inside us ---all of a sudden out of nowhere -
    God spoke to me ---one of only 4 times--(that is what is hard for some to understand if you have
    not experienced it, I know, it's ok...)
    It's telepathic, yet in complete sentences and with inflection...!!

    This is exactly what He said, "This......even this........(.pregnant pauses)
    would not exist... if not for Me....."

    Naturally - tears were streaming down at the awe of the moment and the depth of the Gift of Insight.
    I hold these Divine Communications as the most precious humbling experiences of my whole existence;
    That for some reason He talks to me ---not His angel ---Him.
    (I know the difference between Him and an angel's communication. You don't have to believe me, I understand...)
    I love ya anyway.
    :) Miss Hepburn
     
  8. Pato

    Pato New Member

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    God is all knowing. He knows and understands things we cannot even begin to understand at this stage. Scripture declares He knows the end from the beginning i.e He knows once a choice is made and an action is started, He knows of all the possibilities of where it will end. We don't know this which is why we are constantly admonished to chose life. He gives us the choice, but only when we make it can He be sure of what we will do, but rest assured He knows where it will end up. We have a limited degree of this e.g...we know that if children are playing that the possibilty of the ball going into the street is there, and that the possibility of a child chasing the ball will occur, and the possiblity of a car hitting the child can occur, and the possibility that the child will die can occur. So what do we do, we caution our children not to play in or near the street or in fact we take them to a safe playground away from traffic and all the possibilities of hurt. How did we know? We knew the end of the matter (all the possibilities for hurt) based on the beginning action (the choices made).
    God so much more knows of all the possibilities that can happen when we make a choice, so he cautions us on which choice, for our own good, to make. Of course we are free to disregard His advice but who do we blame when everything wrong and bad, like a domino effect, occurs?
     
  9. Joshua David

    Joshua David New Member

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    I would say that my opinion is closest to DiDasKaLos. I too believe that God knows everything that is knowable. But I differ in a couple of different ways. I guess the differences result from my understanding of time. I do not see time as being this static, preset, unvariable thing like most people see it. They see the future as set in stone as the past is. I do not. I believe that God does see the end from the beginning, but what does that mean? To me it means that God sees every consequence for every decision for every person.

    Take for instance, Hezekiah. In 2 Kings:1-6 we read the story of Isaiah telling the King Hezekiah"Thus saith the Lord..." He was told to put his house in order, for he was about to die, and would not recover.

    It time is this static, unchanging thing, then God would have known that Hezekiah would have prayed and that He would have granted Hezekiah 15 more years, and therefore, by strict interpretation, when he told Isaiah that the King would not recover, then he was telling a lie.

    But, God knows what will happen if Hezekiah would not have prayed, and he knew what would happen if he did pray. God told the truth Hezekiah would have died, and yet through the power of Prayer, Hezekiah changed God's mind.

    This is not the only instance where God changed his mind. And the question remains, if God knows the end from the beginning and he knew that he was going to change his mind, then did he really change his mind to begin with?

    I do not believe that a person is predestined for Heaven or predestined for Hell. I believe that every person is predestined for both. And it is by our own choice that we choose Heaven. The best way I have been able to wrap my mind around it is by imagining time as a stream that continously branches off. Every branch is a significant decision that we make. To serve God or not. To pray about this thing or not, ect.

    God knows what will happen if we choose to serve him, or to pray about this or not. God knows what will happen if we don't. In other words God see every choice, and every possible result of said choices.

    We are like a boat paddling down that stream. Do we turn right or left. God see what will happen if we turn this way. Rocks up ahead. He may warn us. Turn back. Take the right path. That is my desire for you. But ultimately it is our decision.

    Joshua David


     
  10. perrero

    perrero Active Member

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    I do believe we are on the same wave length.

    I probably should have added to my list of things that God knows is that He knows all the consequences, results, possibilities, etc. of every man's free choices in all their intricate and interwoven outcomes. As I have once said He knows every possible and combination in a chess match. (This is a simple probabilities calculation for 32 pieces on a chess board, however I can't tell you I failled calculus) But imagine the same probabilities calculation for 6 billion individuals on this earth. God knows every possibility and consequence. Matter of fact, for God it is child's play.

    Not knowing our free will choices allows God to be elated when we chose righteously and to be grieved (true grief, not crocodile tears because you always knew it was going to happen) when we chose sinfully.

    It also grieves me that people do not stop long enough to think out their statement that says: God predestines people to heaven or hell.
    According to Jesus the road to heaven is narrow. How can anyone think that God whose essence is LOVE would even consider going through with such an idea of creating more people for hell and less for heaven. By the way if God knew about all those going to hell, why does He say that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Truth is hell was never needed until the rebellion of angels.

    Jer. (32:35) Shows God bewildered at the sin of Israel. Sure he knew about the remote possibility of Israel offering their newborns to the fires of Molock, but certainly not His people. Not after Egypt, the Red sea, the Quail, the Manna, the Jordan crossing, Jericho, the bounty, the plenty, the blessings, etc. God's heart was broken that day. Crushed by a sinful, stiffnecked people whom He trusted to choose good. Surely they would not go to that extreme.

    As far as I'm concerned, TULIP and DAISY argue the same point and Believe the same in the end. Only TULIP is more honest in their misguided understanding while DAISY is afraid to take their Free Will belief to the end, and that is, that there can be no free will if God is already privy to our choices.

    I'll you all with that.
    Ciao! 4 now


    I agree.
    God knows the beginning from the end has confused many.
    It is used as a blanket statement that God knows all even our choices.
    But then God has no beginning and no end, so what does that statement really refer to.
    What you postulate is quite good and even quite accurate.

    Cheers
     
  11. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    The all-knowing characteristic of God has never been difficult for me to image. If you read a book or watch a movie.....you are all-knowing about the subject matter you just watched. God isn't subject to time.....everything hasn't happened and already happened from God's point of view.

     
  12. perrero

    perrero Active Member

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    I'm afraid this is erroneous.
    God does live in time, His own time.
    There was a time when He was all alone in His infinity without need of anything as He is self-sufficient.
    Then there was a later time when He created angels, and a separate time when He created the universe.
    Jesus wasn't born, then hung on a cross, and later resurrected from the dead all at the same time.
    God does not feel elation, grief, revenge, and righteous indignation all at the same time.

    God experiences an eternal succesion of time. He has a past and a future, but this has no bearing on His exitence, as He is eternal.
     
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