How long O Lord

[grafted branch]

And that little season is how long?

God didn’t say specifically. Sometimes God says yes, sometimes no, and sometimes wait. If you think the answer was in error I don’t know what else I can say to convince you otherwise.

Then you argue that it can not be a question at the Second Coming, because we already know the answer. No, we don't know the answer.

If you think at some point God is going to tell you that the second coming will happen at some exact day and hour then I would say that idea is in contradiction to Matthew 24:36, because no one knows this except the Father.

They were told to rest a little season. They were not told how long that little season would be.

Exactly, we can speculate but the exact amount of time is not specified.

If you were to die and ask how long and receive a different answer than the one recorded in Revelation 6:11, that would mean you are not one of the martyrs at the fifth seal. It’s that simple, only those at the fifth seal are given the answer of “a little season” and since we already know that information, there would be no reason to ask the question in the first place.

Do you think those who go through the first four seals are so confused that they just don’t recognize themselves as the fifth seal martyrs and that’s why they ask? If so then every interpretation of the first four seals, including yours, that puts them in the future, has to be incorrect else people would be able to recognize they are fifth seals martyrs which would negate the need to ask the question in the first place.

 

[grafted branch]

When Satan sits in Churches as an angel of light, he shall cause the light of Christ to shine no more at all within. When the light of Christ is removed from the Church the Gospel as a witness for Christ is silenced, or as dead. When the light of the candle shines no more in the Church the voice of the bridegroom (Christ's Gospel) is heard no more in thee. The battle Christians fight against Satan and his minions is spiritual not physical even though spiritual warfare does lead to martyrdom for our faith. I agree, physical death of believers is not to be feared because when we are physically absent from the body, we are spiritually alive with the Lord in heaven.

Revelation 18:23 (KJV) And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Most people I’ve asked about how the beast overcomes the saints give me a physical death answer. You’re the first person that has given me this kind of answer.
Would you consider this overcoming being spiritual in nature? I’ve been thinking that the overcoming is similar to John the Baptist, he’s the one who baptized Jesus but then later he questioned whether Jesus was the one or if they should look for another. Maybe John the Baptist was a type?

 

[rwb]

Most people I’ve asked about how the beast overcomes the saints give me a physical death answer. You’re the first person that has given me this kind of answer.
Would you consider this overcoming being spiritual in nature? I’ve been thinking that the overcoming is similar to John the Baptist, he’s the one who baptized Jesus but then later he questioned whether Jesus was the one or if they should look for another. Maybe John the Baptist was a type?

I don't really view John asking if Christ was the one they were looking for to be a sin. I think many of us have doubts about who Christ is until our eyes are opened to spiritual truth.

It's both really, because spiritual persecution can lead to physical death, as it did in the case of John the Baptist. He was killed because he spoke the truth about the unlawful marriage of the king. Had he simply been silent and not vocalized how the law of God had been broken, he may not have offended and been allowed to live. Who knows? But in answer to your question, yes, I do believe the battle Christians must fight against in this world are spiritual.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't really view John asking if Christ was the one they were looking for to be a sin. I think many of us have doubts about who Christ is until our eyes are opened to spiritual truth.

It's both really, because spiritual persecution can lead to physical death, as it did in the case of John the Baptist. He was killed because he spoke the truth about the unlawful marriage of the king. Had he simply been silent and not vocalized how the law of God had been broken, he may not have offended and been allowed to live. Who knows? But in answer to your question, yes, I do believe the battle Christians must fight against in this world are spiritual.

I don’t think John the Baptist questioning if Jesus was the one was necessary a sin either but I think it points to something more than just doubt, I think it answers the question of what being overcome means.

Many Amil see the two witnesses in Revelation 11 as the church, I think there are enough similarities between John the Baptist and the two witnesses that this can’t be brushed off or ignored.



Here is a list I have about the similarities of John the Baptist (JtB) and the two witnesses.



Revelation 11 two witnesses. Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.

 

[rwb]

I don’t think John the Baptist questioning if Jesus was the one was necessary a sin either but I think it points to something more than just doubt, I think it answers the question of what being overcome means.

Many Amil see the two witnesses in Revelation 11 as the church, I think there are enough similarities between John the Baptist and the two witnesses that this can’t be brushed off or ignored.

Here is a list I have about the similarities of John the Baptist (JtB) and the two witnesses.

Revelation 11 two witnesses. Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.

I can see how and why you make this connection between JtB and the two witnesses. I find some of these things that I don't think fit. For instance the two witnesses are called two olive trees and two candlesticks but are not called Elijah.

Being Amil I too consider the two witnesses to be the Church. Because the Church is sent out unto all the earth to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through power from the Holy Spirit. It is the message of Christ that gives eternal life to all who believe that saves man, not the ones who proclaim Him. I believe the two witnesses represent the Word of God, the Gospel proclaimed that is silenced throughout the earth, and is as though dead.

The two witnesses of God are the two olive trees that are the Old Covenant Law that pointed Israel of Old to their need for the Messiah/Redeemer, and the Prophets of Old foretell would one day come to redeem them. The two olive trees are the Law and Prophets of Old. The candlesticks John tells us in chapter 1 are churches. I believe as two candlesticks they symbolize the Gospel of Christ proclaimed in the power of His Spirit. The two candlesticks are the Word of God (Gospel) and the Holy Spirit.

I believe the time will come and is fast approaching that through the power and spirit of this world, the message sent from the churches will no longer be tolerated. The churches and Gospel of Christ will be silenced and appear as though dead. I don't believe three and one half days is a literal amount of time, but symbolic of Satan's "little season" he shall begiven when the thousand years have finished. The church that was sent out with the Gospel of Christ for all appearances will be a dead body of believers to the world for this short symbolic period of time. Then the Spirit of life from God will enter them, they (the elect of God, His witnesses) will stand on their feet and will be called up to meet the Lord in the air. The final woe in the days the seventh trumpet sounds shall follow for then the wrath of God has come.

As we observe these times we live in and think about what shall be in the near or far future, we find the enemies of God are even now, as they always have been, persecuting and trying to destroy everything and everyone on the earth that is called to bring glory and honor to God. The spiritual Kingdom of God as it has always existed upon the earth was of Old found in the nation of Israel. It was to them that God gave His Word, the Law, Prophets, and the Covenant of Redemption (Christ) came through them. And it is through the universal Church on earth that God gave us His Gospel and power through His Spirit. Is there any wonder in seeing how both Old Covenant Israel, and the New Covenant Church on earth have had to endure the greatest persecution and tribulation, more than any other entity on earth. But time given this earth through the Church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God by the Word proclaimed will one day end with Christ physically coming again in the clouds of glory, and the wrath of God by fire being poured out on the earth. Then the new age will come and the faithful saints will dwell with Christ forever on the new earth.

 

[Marty fox]

I can see how and why you make this connection between JtB and the two witnesses. I find some of these things that I don't think fit. For instance the two witnesses are called two olive trees and two candlesticks but are not called Elijah.

Being Amil I too consider the two witnesses to be the Church. Because the Church is sent out unto all the earth to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through power from the Holy Spirit. It is the message of Christ that gives eternal life to all who believe that saves man, not the ones who proclaim Him. I believe the two witnesses represent the Word of God, the Gospel proclaimed that is silenced throughout the earth, and is as though dead.

The two witnesses of God are the two olive trees that are the Old Covenant Law that pointed Israel of Old to their need for the Messiah/Redeemer, and the Prophets of Old foretell would one day come to redeem them. The two olive trees are the Law and Prophets of Old. The candlesticks John tells us in chapter 1 are churches. I believe as two candlesticks they symbolize the Gospel of Christ proclaimed in the power of His Spirit. The two candlesticks are the Word of God (Gospel) and the Holy Spirit.

I believe the time will come and is fast approaching that through the power and spirit of this world, the message sent from the churches will no longer be tolerated. The churches and Gospel of Christ will be silenced and appear as though dead. I don't believe three and one half days is a literal amount of time, but symbolic of Satan's "little season" he shall begiven when the thousand years have finished. The church that was sent out with the Gospel of Christ for all appearances will be a dead body of believers to the world for this short symbolic period of time. Then the Spirit of life from God will enter them, they (the elect of God, His witnesses) will stand on their feet and will be called up to meet the Lord in the air. The final woe in the days the seventh trumpet sounds shall follow for then the wrath of God has come.

As we observe these times we live in and think about what shall be in the near or far future, we find the enemies of God are even now, as they always have been, persecuting and trying to destroy everything and everyone on the earth that is called to bring glory and honor to God. The spiritual Kingdom of God as it has always existed upon the earth was of Old found in the nation of Israel. It was to them that God gave His Word, the Law, Prophets, and the Covenant of Redemption (Christ) came through them. And it is through the universal Church on earth that God gave us His Gospel and power through His Spirit. Is there any wonder in seeing how both Old Covenant Israel, and the New Covenant Church on earth have had to endure the greatest persecution and tribulation, more than any other entity on earth. But time given this earth through the Church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God by the Word proclaimed will one day end with Christ physically coming again in the clouds of glory, and the wrath of God by fire being poured out on the earth. Then the new age will come and the faithful saints will dwell with Christ forever on the new earth.

How about the two witnesses being the Law and the Prophets that mirror Jesus life a witnessed and pointed to Jesus? This below is my study on them from a site I am helping running

Who or what are the two witnesses? | Areopagus

I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to

areopagus.proboards.com

 

[grafted branch]

How about the two witnesses being the Law and the Prophets that mirror Jesus life a witnessed and pointed to Jesus? This below is my study on them from a site I am helping running

Who or what are the two witnesses? | Areopagus

I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to

areopagus.proboards.com

Thanks for the link, I read your article. I used to think the two witnesses were the church as the Amil do but now I think the two witnesses are the law and the prophets, with JtB being some kind of type that represents them. There are too many differences between the two witnesses and JtB to say he was the two witnesses but enough similarities that I can’t ignore it either.

In Revelation 11:19 the temple in heaven is opened and the ark is seen. I think the ark could be representing the law, which if it’s one of two witness, it ascended to heaven in Revelation 11:12.

What are your thoughts on the ark being in heaven and that maybe it represents the law?

 

[rwb]

How about the two witnesses being the Law and the Prophets that mirror Jesus life a witnessed and pointed to Jesus? This below is my study on them from a site I am helping running

Who or what are the two witnesses? | Areopagus

I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to

areopagus.proboards.com

Marty, yes, both the Law & Prophets, as well as the Gospel and Holy Spirit are all witnesses pointing to Jesus. They are four, not two. I don't believe they are symbolic of Moses and Elijah. Yes, I agree the Word of God is the power over life and death and is fire coming from the mouths of all who proclaim the Word through the power of the Holy Spirit. Would you not agree that's what is meant through baptism of Holy Ghost and with fire?

Luke 3:16 (KJV) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Being dressed in sackcloth, I believe means they are humble in spirit as they bear witness to Christ. I also don't believe the references to times in Revelation are literal, but symbolically times given within the time symbolized a thousand years. But I do think you may be right in your understanding of 7000 people who die symbolizing the complete/perfection of those being saved then. They represent a remnant in the same way the 7000 from Old Covenant were saved in the days of Elijah, who had not bowed to the image of Baal. (Ro 11:4)

Though I believe we have much in common Marty, when it comes to Preterism we are on opposing sides of doctrinal truths.

 

[Marty fox]

Thanks for the link, I read your article. I used to think the two witnesses were the church as the Amil do but now I think the two witnesses are the law and the prophets, with JtB being some kind of type that represents them. There are too many differences between the two witnesses and JtB to say he was the two witnesses but enough similarities that I can’t ignore it either.

In Revelation 11:19 the temple in heaven is opened and the ark is seen. I think the ark could be representing the law, which if it’s one of two witness, it ascended to heaven in Revelation 11:12.

What are your thoughts on the ark being in heaven and that maybe it represents the law?

The ark represents Gods covenant with Israel and it was behind the curtain in the temple and the high priest was allowed to enter once a year.

Now the temple has been torn in half and now we the church have daily access to God and the promise of His covenant which is our access to heaven

FYI I am an amill

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, yes, both the Law & Prophets, as well as the Gospel and Holy Spirit are all witnesses pointing to Jesus. They are four, not two. I don't believe they are symbolic of Moses and Elijah. Yes, I agree the Word of God is the power over life and death and is fire coming from the mouths of all who proclaim the Word through the power of the Holy Spirit. Would you not agree that's what is meant through baptism of Holy Ghost and with fire?

Luke 3:16 (KJV) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Being dressed in sackcloth, I believe means they are humble in spirit as they bear witness to Christ. I also don't believe the references to times in Revelation are literal, but symbolically times given within the time symbolized a thousand years. But I do think you may be right in your understanding of 7000 people who die symbolizing the complete/perfection of those being saved then. They represent a remnant in the same way the 7000 from Old Covenant were saved in the days of Elijah, who had not bowed to the image of Baal. (Ro 11:4)

Though I believe we have much in common Marty, when it comes to Preterism we are on opposing sides of doctrinal truths.

Thanks I’m not a Preterist but a partial one and amill but it’s okay if we don’t fully agree on all things it’s the encential ones that matter

 

[Davy]

What I've found to typically be true is that when one has the proper understanding of Amil it is the only end time doctrine that makes sense.

It's false statements like that which are needed by Amill all the time in order to try... and convince the deceived that it is a viable doctrine of The Bible. In reality, it is a man-made doctrine that crept in among the deceived starting back in the 2nd century A.D. with the so-called Christian Gnostics.

It is very easy to document within God's Word that the Amill position is false doctrine from men.