How long O Lord

[DeWayne]

When do you think the question of “how long” in Revelation 6:10 is asked?

The first century. Just a guess.

 

[grafted branch]

The first century. Just a guess.

Yea, I would agree, it was asked some time prior to the writing of Revelation.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Read 2 Corinthians 5 and you will see the church is gathering in Paradise, because of the Cross. Those in Christ are only ambassadors on earth; representing that kingdom in Paradise.

Some are good ambassadors. Some are lukewarm ambassadors. Some are horrible ambassadors. The responsibility of the church is the time spent on earth. Paradise is the retirement package.

Those "under the alter" symbolize the church in Paradise. They have all shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh as their testimony to God.

Hebrews 11:13-16

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

That country is Paradise, the heavenly place prepared for the church. But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body. All the OT redeemed were the firstfruits of the church. They were made alive at the Cross, per the order Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 15. They are the firstfruits of the NT church in the part: Christ the firstfruits. All in Christ since the Cross enter Paradise. Then at the Second Coming, those alive on the earth will join them. That is when the robe of white is put on. That is the glorification of the church. That is the whole and only point of the 5th Seal.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Read 2 Corinthians 5 and you will see the church is gathering in Paradise, because of the Cross. Those in Christ are only ambassadors on earth; representing that kingdom in Paradise.

Some are good ambassadors. Some are lukewarm ambassadors. Some are horrible ambassadors. The responsibility of the church is the time spent on earth. Paradise is the retirement package.

Those "under the alter" symbolize the church in Paradise. They have all shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh as their testimony to God.

Hebrews 11:13-16

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

That country is Paradise, the heavenly place prepared for the church. But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body. All the OT redeemed were the firstfruits of the church. They were made alive at the Cross, per the order Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 15. They are the firstfruits of the NT church in the part: Christ the firstfruits. All in Christ since the Cross enter Paradise. Then at the Second Coming, those alive on the earth will join them. That is when the robe of white is put on. That is the glorification of the church. That is the whole and only point of the 5th Seal.

But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body.

Luke 16:22 KJV​

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried

 

[Marty fox]

Marty,

The four horses IMO are the same horses we read of in Zechariah. But the message is now changed instead of bringing a message of peace, the horses are sent out to fulfill the prophecy of Haggai. Zechariah writes they were sent by God to walk back and forth upon the earth. The report from the angel of the LORD then was that the earth sits still and is at rest. The four horses of the Revelation are sent not to find a world in stillness and rest, but are sent to bring judgment upon the earth.

Zechariah 1:8-11 (KJV) I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white. Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Haggai 2:20-23 (KJV) And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

In an effort to keep this from becoming a book, I'll stop here, so I can know if you've come to similar conclusions.

Could be but I see them as beg of judgement on Jerusalem by the Romans

 

[rwb]

Could be but I see them as beg of judgement on Jerusalem by the Romans

Marty, couldn't that be because you're viewing them from a Preterits point of view?

In the time of Zechariah the four horses reporting quiet and stillness upon the earth, doesn't mean the world was without evil and death from the beginning. The earth in the days of Old, before the advent of Christ was still and at rest because Christ had not yet come to bring judgment upon mankind. When Christ came in His Kingdom He says, He came not to bring peace but a sword upon the earth. Yes, judgment would begin in Israel of Old, not by Rome destroying the city of Jerusalem the Temple and buildings, but through His Word (Gospel) proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:34-36 (KJV) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Acts 17:31 (KJV) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

John 16:7-11 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The four horses of Revelation are not being newly sent upon the earth, because they were sent even before Zechariah was given the vision. The four horses of Revelation show fulfillment of the prophecy of Haggai when God spoke to him of the heavens and earth beginning to shake, and the overthrow of the kingdoms of the earth. This will be accomplished by the rider on the white horse which symbolizes Christ coming on a beast (horse) both to conquer all of His enemies by His atoning sacrificial cross and resurrection.

Remember back in chapter four where John saw a vision of heaven and four living creatures (beasts) around the throne. The first of the four beasts was like a lion. I believe the lion symbolizes the lion of the tribe of Judah, who of course is none other than Jesus Christ our Lord, Almighty God, King of Kings. In Gen. 49 when Jacob called his sons to him that he might tell them what would come to pass in the last days (Gen 49:1). The prophecy to Judah is of the coming of Christ.

Genesis 49:9-12 (KJV) Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

To understand the three horses that follow after Christ when He comes in righteousness and purity (white) we get some help from Ezekiel's prophetic vision in Ezekiel 1. I believe the four beasts both Ezekiel and John see represent the same thing. And the horses symbolize these four beasts that are symbolic of the evil powers described under the emblem of wild beasts through brute force, and unrestrained passion, and self-will. The beasts of Ezekiel and John I believe are depicting the same thing. Even though John writes of these beasts as horses with riders, I believe these four horses of the Revelation are also the four beasts of Zechariah, Ezekiel, and John.

Ezekiel 1:10 (KJV) As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Revelation 4:7 (KJV) And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

I don't want overwhelm with very long posts, so I'll stop here and hopefully discussions and opinions from others will follow.

 

[grafted branch]

I believe the four beasts both Ezekiel and John see represent the same thing. And the horses symbolize these four beasts that are symbolic of the evil powers described under the emblem of wild beasts through brute force, and unrestrained passion, and self-will. The beasts of Ezekiel and John I believe are depicting the same thing. Even though John writes of these beasts as horses with riders, I believe these four horses of the Revelation are also the four beasts of Zechariah, Ezekiel, and John.

I agree with linking Ezekiel 1:10 and Revelation 4:7, but if they are symbolic of evil power why would they be giving glory, honor, and thanks to God in Revelation 4:9?

 

[rwb]

I agree with linking Ezekiel 1:10 and Revelation 4:7, but if they are symbolic of evil power why would they be giving glory, honor, and thanks to God in Revelation 4:9?

I read the passage differently GB. It doesn't say they are giving God all glory. It says "when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to Him that sat on the throne." IOW And whensoever the living beings shall give (the future is used) glory and honour and thanks to Him who sitteth upon the throne. Then the twenty-four elders shall also fall down before Him, casting their crowns before the throne.

Revelation 4:8-11 (KJV) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Romans 14:11 (KJV) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe Rev 4-6 is prophecy ordained in heaven before creation, before Satan and his minions were cast out of heaven and to the earth when Christ was born (Rev 12). IMO that's why they are seen in heaven before the advent of Christ come to earth a man.

 

[grafted branch]

I believe Rev 4-6 is prophecy ordained in heaven before creation, before Satan and his minions were cast out of heaven and to the earth when Christ was born (Rev 12). IMO that's why they are seen in heaven before the advent of Christ come to earth a man.

You’re saying Revelation 4:8 takes place prior to creation?

If so what about the statement in Revelation 4:8 “which was, and is, and is to come”? A similar statement is made in Revelation 17:8 about the beast with seven heads “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit” and “was, and is not, and yet is”.

Do you think these kind of statements are related to a point in time when the vision occurs or are they just showing a characteristic that both God and the beast have? I know God is omnipresent but I don’t think the beast or Satan is.

 

[rwb]

You’re saying Revelation 4:8 takes place prior to creation?

If so what about the statement in Revelation 4:8 “which was, and is, and is to come”? A similar statement is made in Revelation 17:8 about the beast with seven heads “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit” and “was, and is not, and yet is”.

Do you think these kind of statements are related to a point in time when the vision occurs or are they just showing a characteristic that both God and the beast have? I know God is omnipresent but I don’t think the beast or Satan is.

Not literally, but yes through Covenant that God ordained in heaven before creation. The symbolism in the Revelation is all that comes to pass throughout redemptive history through the Lamb of God, who was slain (according to promise) from the foundation of the world. IOW God's plan to redeem a people for Himself was determined through the triune Godhead by promise/covenant and all that comes about throughout human history is written as being past, present and future in the book of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ tells the story of redemption through the slain Lamb, with God foreknowing the fall of mankind, and the need for a Saviour before sin and death through sin entered creation. The same prophecy being repeated ends with what has come to pass on earth from the fall, and then progresses to what is and shall be through the first advent of Christ, and finally what comes to pass when the Kingdom of God is complete and the time comes for the finality of the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the whole earth of the ungodly, and gathering together all who are of faith in Him.

 

[grafted branch]

Not literally, but yes through Covenant that God ordained in heaven before creation. The symbolism in the Revelation is all that comes to pass throughout redemptive history through the Lamb of God, who was slain (according to promise) from the foundation of the world. IOW God's plan to redeem a people for Himself was determined through the triune Godhead by promise/covenant and all that comes about throughout human history is written as being past, present and future in the book of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ tells the story of redemption through the slain Lamb, with God foreknowing the fall of mankind, and the need for a Saviour before sin and death through sin entered creation. The same prophecy being repeated ends with what has come to pass on earth from the fall, and then progresses to what is and shall be through the first advent of Christ, and finally what comes to pass when the Kingdom of God is complete and the time comes for the finality of the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the whole earth of the ungodly, and gathering together all who are of faith in Him.

So then someone could say that since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and since Him being slain is what binds Satan, then Satan was bound from the foundation of the world, at least in some way I suppose.

Some people will use Revelation 17:8 to show the distinction between when Satan is bound and when he’s not. It just seems like Revelation 4:8 should be making a similar distinction, maybe like time prior to the cross, the time after the cross, and the time after His return.

 

[rwb]

So then someone could say that since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and since Him being slain is what binds Satan, then Satan was bound from the foundation of the world, at least in some way I suppose.

Some people will use Revelation 17:8 to show the distinction between when Satan is bound and when he’s not. It just seems like Revelation 4:8 should be making a similar distinction, maybe like time prior to the cross, the time after the cross, and the time after His return.

Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world according to promise. For His sacrifice to make atonement for sin and defeat death, Christ must literally come to do the work ordained of Him from the foundation of the world. Since none of the promises of God shall ever fail, His promise to save His people from their sins is as good as being accomplished when the promise was made, but that does not mean the promises of God to save a people for Himself would not come literally through the advent of Christ when He came to earth a man.

Satan was bound when Christ made atonement for sin and defeated death. He will not be loosed until the thousand years shall expire. Then only for a little season. I don't believe Satan's little season is the same little season the martyred souls under the altar are told they must wait. I believe the little season the souls are told they must wait began when the earthly ministry of Christ began when He was anointed at His baptism. The little season for them I believe is during the three and one half year ministry of Christ before His cross. They had to wait for Christ to atone for sin and defeat death before they could ascend with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers who are now living souls in heaven without physical form.

I have no idea how long or when the little season for Satan will begin. But I believe those of faith might try to discern the time when the Word of God (Gospel) has been silenced on the earth. When this world under the influence of evil arrives at the time when the Gospel proclaimed through the Church is no longer tolerated and the Light of the Gospel is absolutely as though dead, I believe we should look up because then I believe the return of Christ will shortly follow.

 

[grafted branch]

Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world according to promise. For His sacrifice to make atonement for sin and defeat death, Christ must literally come to do the work ordained of Him from the foundation of the world. Since none of the promises of God shall ever fail, His promise to save His people from their sins is as good as being accomplished when the promise was made, but that does not mean the promises of God to save a people for Himself would not come literally through the advent of Christ when He came to earth a man.

I agree, if God promised something we can consider it as if it already happened, that’s how absolutely sure we are of God’s word. That’s why in the original post I wonder why anyone needs to ask a question that God has already answered.

Satan was bound when Christ made atonement for sin and defeated death. He will not be loosed until the thousand years shall expire. Then only for a little season. I don't believe Satan's little season is the same little season the martyred souls under the altar are told they must wait. I believe the little season the souls are told they must wait began when the earthly ministry of Christ began when He was anointed at His baptism. The little season for them I believe is during the three and one half year ministry of Christ before His cross. They had to wait for Christ to atone for sin and defeat death before they could ascend with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers who are now living souls in heaven without physical form.

I’m no longer an Amil but I used to see it as you do, where Satan is bound after the cross. I think most Amil use Revelation 17:8 to show that Satan was bound at the time Revelation was written because it says “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit”, meaning Satan wasn’t bound, now is bound, and will come out of the pit after the millennium.

The thing I’m questioning is if we say Revelation 4:8 is based solely on Gods promises then a Premil can use this same logic on Revelation 17:8 and say John just spoke of it as if Satan was bound at that time because of Gods promises but Satan wasn’t actually bound when John wrote Revelation.

That’s why I don’t understand using this type of logic to say that when the four beasts in Revelation 4:8 say “which was, and is, and is to come”, that it’s based on Gods promises and not based on the time at which it was said.

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t need to know the exact moment of many things. I don’t need to know the exact moment in time that Jesus died on the cross, as you know there are people who think 30AD and others think 33AD but pin pointing the exact moment doesn’t change the fact that He did die for our sins.



You have a problem when you put the fifth seal question being asked in the future. And that problem is that we currently know the answer, we have this knowledge. It makes no sense to ask a question that you already know the answer to.

Again are you planning on asking Jesus questions like where were you born or what was your mother’s name? You apparently are unable to tell us why you personally would do such a thing.

The question is "how long?".
You have yet to provide an answer.

 

[grafted branch]

The question is "how long?".
You have yet to provide an answer.

Here’s the answer … and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[rwb]

I’m no longer an Amil but I used to see it as you do, where Satan is bound after the cross. I think most Amil use Revelation 17:8 to show that Satan was bound at the time Revelation was written because it says “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit”, meaning Satan wasn’t bound, now is bound, and will come out of the pit after the millennium.

The thing I’m questioning is if we say Revelation 4:8 is based solely on Gods promises then a Premil can use this same logic on Revelation 17:8 and say John just spoke of it as if Satan was bound at that time because of Gods promises but Satan wasn’t actually bound when John wrote Revelation.

That’s why I don’t understand using this type of logic to say that when the four beasts in Revelation 4:8 say “which was, and is, and is to come”, that it’s based on Gods promises and not based on the time at which it was said.

What I've found to typically be true is that when one has the proper understanding of Amil it is the only end time doctrine that makes sense. Does believing in Amil make one right about every doctrine found in the Bible? Of course not! But of the different end time positions it is the only one that does not force contradiction into God's Word. I can live with not fully understanding all that is written, but contradiction in the Word of God must not be tolerated.

Revelation IMO shows John through visions the same story repeated again and again. The visions seem to begin with that which had been coming to an end, and something new beginning that would also end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

Since Premil does not understand how time is given the Church on earth to take the Gospel of Christ into all the nations of the world that the Kingdom of God will be complete, they cannot possibly understand the timing of Satan's binding and release. How can this verse help Premil prove Satan is bound for a thousand years after the seventh trumpet begins to sound since the beast was, is not and yet is? IOW the beast, even though being bound is not without power on the earth during the time he is not, or time he is bound. Premil believes when he is bound there will be peace without any evil upon the earth during this imagined time of ONE thousand literal years.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't believe Satan's little season is the same little season the martyred souls under the altar are told they must wait. I believe the little season the souls are told they must wait began when the earthly ministry of Christ began when He was anointed at His baptism. The little season for them I believe is during the three and one half year ministry of Christ before His cross. They had to wait for Christ to atone for sin and defeat death before they could ascend with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers who are now living souls in heaven without physical form.

How can this little season that you already agree is not meaning satan's little season, not be pertaining to any of the following?

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What I have underlined in Revelation 20:4, this martyrdom occurs during what I have underlined in Revelation 12 and 13. Clearly then, the 42 month month reign of the beast does not follow the the thousand years, it precedes the beginning of the thousand years since the martyrdom I have underlined in Revelation 20:4 has to occur during the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously.

Everyone, both Premils and Amils, except for maybe Preterists, already know that the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the 2nd coming in the end of this age. There goes Amil out the window then. Per the scenario above it is the beginning of the thousand years that follow the 42 month reign of the beast. Anyone that argues that what I have underlined in Revelation 20:4, that this martyrdom does not occur during what I have underlined in Revelation 12 and 13, can't be taken serious. IOW, it is not a valid argument and that it is undeniably twisting what Revelation 20:4 undeniably reveals about the timing of the little season in question, meaning what I have underlined in both Revelation 12 and 13.

The chronology looks like this. The little season involving the 5th seal, meaning the 42 month reign of the beast, followed by the vials of wrath, followed by the 2nd coming, followed by the beginning of the thousand years, followed by satan's little season.

Not only does all the above prove Premil not Amil, so does Daniel 7. IOW, the chronology of events recorded in Daniel 7 match the chronology of events I submitted above.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them(the 42 month reign of the beast)
22 Until the Ancient of days came(the 2nd coming in the end of this age) , and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(the beginning of the thousand years) .

 

[rwb]

How can this little season that you already agree is not meaning satan's little season, not be pertaining to any of the following?

You're confusing the little season the martyred souls are told they must wait with the little season Satan is given when the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no longer. The little season the souls under the altar is given those who have already died in faith. When Satan is given his little season it will be for him to gather together Gog & Magog to come against those who of faith that are still physically alive on the earth.

Revelation chapters 12 & 13 has been on-going against Christ and His body (Christians) since he was cast out of heaven and to the earth with his minions when Christ was born.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What I have underlined in Revelation 20:4, this martyrdom occurs during what I have underlined in Revelation 12 and 13. Clearly then, the 42 month month reign of the beast does not follow the the thousand years, it precedes the beginning of the thousand years since the martyrdom I have underlined in Revelation 20:4 has to occur during the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously.

Why do you omit underlining "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"? They lived and reigned in time before they were martyred.

That's referring to the time in which these martyred, headless souls in heaven were beheaded for being witnesses of Jesus and the Word of God, and did not worship the beast, or his image, and did not receive his mark. Yes, Rev 12 & 13 come to pass during this same period of time, symbolized a thousand years. John is writing of them to show that after physical death there is still a spiritual body of believers alive in heaven as living souls since the first advent of Christ.

I believe both 42 months and 1260 days are equal amounts of time within the time symbolized a thousand years. I don't view these times as contiguous times for building and destroying, but times relating to when Satan is having some power coming against the Church, and times when the Church overcomes the wiles of Satan and his minions. Both Satan and the Church throughout the Gospel age of grace have time, times and dividing/half of time for both building and tearing down. I believe that's why Christ warns of "great tribulation" that shall be cut short for the sake of His elect. Many times of trouble/tribulation come against Christian's time and again, but Satan cannot prevent Christ from building His Church as the Gospel is proclaimed in the power of His Spirit.

 

[Davidpt]

What I've found to typically be true is that when one has the proper understanding of Amil it is the only end time doctrine that makes sense.

If Amil made sense Amil would agree with the chronology of events pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast, the 2nd coming, and where the thousand years fit in relation to these things.

Fact 1. The 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

Fact 2. The 42 month reign of the beast isn't meaning satan's little season, it is meaning the little season per the 5th seal.

Therefore, Amil is impossible since Amil needs satan's little season to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast, except Revelation 20:4 already undeniably proves that the 42 month reign of the beast does not follow the thousand years. How then can the 42 month reign of the beast precede the 2nd coming per Amil, when that requires that the the 42 month reign of the beast and satan's little season, that these are one and the same?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, not during satan's little season instead. After all, they are obviously already martyred way before satan's little season even begins) ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

If Amil made sense Amil would agree with the chronology of events pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast, the 2nd coming, and where the thousand years fit in relation to these things.

Fact 1. The 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

Fact 2. The 42 month reign of the beast isn't meaning satan's little season, it is meaning the little season per the 5th seal.

Therefore, Amil is impossible since Amil needs satan's little season to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast, except Revelation 20:4 already undeniably proves that the 42 month reign of the beast does not follow the thousand years. How then can the 42 month reign of the beast precede the 2nd coming per Amil, when that requires that the the 42 month reign of the beast and satan's little season, that these are one and the same?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, not during satan's little season instead. After all, they are obviously already martyred way before satan's little season even begins) ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

David, why would Amil or any other mil believe Satan's little season is part of the forty two months he is given to persecute the Church on earth? The forty two months comes within time symbolized a thousand years. Satan's little season begins AFTER the thousand years expire.