How long O Lord

[grafted branch]

Much of The Word of God must make "no sense" to you... since you can't even understand the simplicity of that written Scripture of the 5th Seal of Rev.6.

Only a very basic understanding of the events of the fifth seal are needed to see the flaw in this occurring in the future.

1 there are the souls of believers who died for their testimony.
2 they ask a question
3 that question is answered

Since believers currently know with 100% confidence what the answer to the question will be, this means we don’t need to ask it in the first place.

You seem to think you are going to be one of the souls in Revelation 6:9. Why are you personally going to ask the question of how long when you know the answer? Can you explain yourself?

 

[grafted branch]

We can ask when. They still had to rest. The "when for how long" was never given.

"How long" is the same as asking "when". A "little season" would be a very long time, if the question was asked 1950 years ago. Many having been waiting for 1900 years. Most have been waiting for a thousand years. The majority will still wait for a little season when they ask.

So let’s look at the idea that as people die, they go to heaven and ask how long.

First off it’s souls in the plural sense that ask, not singularly or one at a time, and as time passes the avenging would constantly be getting closer making a single answer meaningless.
Then at some point the last person would die and there would be no fellow servants or brethren left to be killed. What this all boils down to is that John didn’t record the scenario you’re describing.

 

[grafted branch]

I respect your position, but can't say that God changed from OT to NT. If God acted with vengeance in the OT era, He is still doing it in the NT era--we may simply be not recognizing it in history.

Keep in mind that OT history gives us an insight, through the Scriptures, into the mind of God. We do not have the Scriptures to explain current history, because the parties involve extend well beyond a single nation.

We simply have to draw upon our knowledge of God in the OT Scriptures to pinpoint what He is doing today, in the NT period. Just my opinion....

I understand that there are folks who insist the old covenant is still in force in some kind of capacity, and I don’t want to open that can of worms here.

Here’s the thing though, it still doesn’t make sense to be asking how long in Revelation 6:10 when we already know the answer. I don’t think once we die we’re going to be asking Jesus questions like where were you born or what was your mother’s name.

 

[grafted branch]

They ask because they assume that being avenged in the human understanding of being avenged, is what God will do and is holding out on. The fact is, God is not like how they imagined him to be. Their misunderstanding of God's Character has them asking the wrong question.
Nevertheless God does not hold their misunderstanding against them and asks them to be patient and gives them white robes. White Robes symbolise no guilt, no condemnation from God, even while they want to be avenged ie, they are held guiltless but want their fellow sinners to be punished.

Many of God's children have a faulty conception of the grace, the mercy, the long-suffering, the tenderness God has toward his erring children.....and we are all his children, God gives life and breath to all in the hope they will abandon their false conceptions of him......and a false conception of God means they have a false conception of their fellow man.

Well that could be their motive but Revelation 6:9 says they were slain for the word and their testimony. One would think that they have read Revelation 6 and that this was part of their testimony. Even with a faulty understanding of being avenged they ask a question that they already know the answer to.

Why would someone ask a question that they know the answer to? Are they so inept that they just ask without realizing who or where they are?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. We have experienced their effects, still ongoing.
It is the Sixth Seal that will be opened soon, to commence all the end time prophesied things, up to the glorious Return.

You have proof of this biblically? Because the language god inspired to write the opening of the seals completely contradicts your ongoing hypothesis.

also JOhn wrote this revelation at teh end of the first century and God told him that these things were to come not had come.

Noe maybe you think Jesus doesn't know grammar and can't tell the past from the future, but I certainly do and He inspired are to come to pass (future) not have been coming to pass (past,present)

Sorry but this is a faulty exegesis.

 

[rwb]

In Revelation 6:9-11 the souls under the altar ask the question of how long dost thou not judge them that dwell on the earth. The answer is given in vs 11 that they should rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that they should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Currently everyone who has read Revelation 6 knows the answer to the question, and since we all have this knowledge (or foreknowledge, depending on when someone thinks this takes place) there is no need to ask this question again, now or in the future, because the answer will not change. Actually asking the Lord this question would show a lack of faith if someone thought a different answer might be possible.

So here’s a question for those who think the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-11 is a still future event, why are they asking this question in the first place when they already know the answer?

The way I would answer the question: This must be a future event to fit a particular doctrine brought to the passage.

How long is a little season? That seems to me to be the crux of the passage. Then we need to discern who are "their fellow servants and also their brethren"? It's also necessary to understand what people John is referring to as souls under the altar "that were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony which they held." The reason I point this out is because the passage makes no mention of these martyrs being slain for the name of Jesus, as we find in Rev 20:4 of martyred souls of "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,". Was the testimony they held, testifying about the Messiah who was promised to come, without knowing His name?

Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Little season is a very short amount of time, so it would be difficult for those who think this is prophecy of the end of this age to prove "little season is 2000 plus years into the future. Their fellow servants might be Jews of the same faith, and Christ being their brethren or brother. I believe that is the correct understanding simply for the fact that it is not written they were witnesses of Jesus. That means they must have lived and been killed before the first advent of Christ.

 

[rwb]

Because it was a question asked in the past by the saints killed by apostate Israel in the first century. The answer was to wait a little while when Israel was judged in 70AD

Marty, wouldn't they have been killed for being witnesses for Jesus if they were killed in the first century AD? John makes no mention of them being witnesses for Jesus. I think 30 or so years gives us the same problem as those who believe this is prophecy that shall come at the end of this age. How can about 30 years be called a "little season"?

 

[grafted branch]

The way I would answer the question: This must be a future event to fit a particular doctrine brought to the passage.

How long is a little season? That seems to me to be the crux of the passage. Then we need to discern who are "their fellow servants and also their brethren"? It's also necessary to understand what people John is referring to as souls under the altar "that were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony which they held." The reason I point this out is because the passage makes no mention of these martyrs being slain for the name of Jesus, as we find in Rev 20:4 of martyred souls of "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,". Was the testimony they held, testifying about the Messiah who was promised to come, without knowing His name?

Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Little season is a very short amount of time, so it would be difficult for those who think this is prophecy of the end of this age to prove "little season is 2000 plus years into the future. Their fellow servants might be Jews of the same faith, and Christ being their brethren or brother. I believe that is the correct understanding simply for the fact that it is not written they were witnesses of Jesus. That means they must have lived and been killed before the first advent of Christ.

I think I agree with most of what you’re saying. The way I see it is those who were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 are the ones asking how long. In Matthew 23:35 the statement is made that upon you (Jerusalem) will come all the righteous blood shed. Those in Revelation 6:9-11 are asking when Matthew 23:35 will be fulfilled.

All first century stuff.

 

[rwb]

I think I agree with most of what you’re saying. The way I see it is those who were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 are the ones asking how long. In Matthew 23:35 the statement is made that upon you (Jerusalem) will come all the righteous blood shed. Those in Revelation 6:9-11 are asking when Matthew 23:35 will be fulfilled.

All first century stuff.

That's how I believe the passage should be discerned. Those graves that were opened after Christ's resurrection are those who ascend as spiritual body of believers with Christ to heaven are these same Old Covenant faithful Jews who, being under the blood of Christ (under the altar, according to promise) who was to come, but could not ascend to heaven after physical death before He came to atone for sin and defeat death. Paul writes that Christ first descended to rescue them and led them with Him to heaven when His spirit returned to the Father.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Christ would later be seen in physical body ascending to heaven at Pentecost, but through His Spirit, with the spiritual body of believers of Old, they went from being under the altar into heaven itself. I believe chapter 7 and the sealing of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel show them receiving the sealing from the Holy Spirit that enabled them to ascend to heaven with Christ as a spiritual body of believers together.

That makes the "little season" both written here and of Satan's "littles season" an unknown but most assuredly the least amount of time.

 

[grafted branch]

That's how I believe the passage should be discerned. Those graves that were opened after Christ's resurrection are those who ascend as spiritual body of believers with Christ to heaven are these same Old Covenant faithful Jews who, being under the blood of Christ (under the altar, according to promise) who was to come, but could not ascend to heaven after physical death before He came to atone for sin and defeat death. Paul writes that Christ first descended to rescue them and led them with Him to heaven when His spirit returned to the Father.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Christ would later be seen in physical body ascending to heaven at Pentecost, but through His Spirit, with the spiritual body of believers of Old, they went from being under the altar into heaven itself. I believe chapter 7 and the sealing of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel show them receiving the sealing from the Holy Spirit that enabled them to ascend to heaven with Christ as a spiritual body of believers together.

That makes the "little season" both written here and of Satan's "littles season" an unknown but most assuredly the least amount of time.

I’m with you on this!

What are your thoughts on John 20:17?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I think Jesus ascended shortly after He arose and then returned. In John 20:27 Thomas can thrust his hand into the side of Jesus but Mary is told not to touch Him until He ascended first in John 20:17.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, wouldn't they have been killed for being witnesses for Jesus if they were killed in the first century AD? John makes no mention of them being witnesses for Jesus. I think 30 or so years gives us the same problem as those who believe this is prophecy that shall come at the end of this age. How can about 30 years be called a "little season"?

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Actually John confirms that these were Christians John ties them directly to his gospel John shows us that Jesus is the word of God.

The gospel of Matthew and the book of Acts also confirm that Jesus is the word the Messiah

Matthew 24
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Acts 8
4 Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. 5 Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there.

Actually 30 to 40 years is a short time in biblical prophecy

 

[rwb]

I’m with you on this!

What are your thoughts on John 20:17?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I think Jesus ascended shortly after He arose and then returned. In John 20:27 Thomas can thrust his hand into the side of Jesus but Mary is told not to touch Him until He ascended first in John 20:17.

I believe that Christ means He had not yet ascended physically. It seems Mary might have been content to stay with Her risen Lord, but He had a job for her. Perhaps Christ was remembering how Mary sat at His feet being content to allow her sister Martha to be the servant. Though Christ commended Mary then, at this time He didn't want her to stay there clinging to Him, because she would have time to hear the Lord before He ascended bodily into heaven which would be some 40 days later.

Luke 10:38-42 (KJV) Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Actually John confirms that these were Christians John ties them directly to his gospel John shows us that Jesus is the word of God.

The gospel of Matthew and the book of Acts also confirm that Jesus is the word the Messiah

Matthew 24
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Acts 8
4 Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. 5 Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there.

Actually 30 to 40 years is a short time in biblical prophecy

Marty 30 to 40 years is not a "little season" when seeing how it is defined. Little implies being the least or smallest, and season too is a space of time, that would equate to time of the year akin to a time for planting or harvesting, but I don't believe it can be anything like 30, 40 or even 2000 years.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty 30 to 40 years is not a "little season" when seeing how it is defined. Little implies being the least or smallest, and season too is a space of time, that would equate to time of the year akin to a time for planting or harvesting, but I don't believe it can be anything like 30, 40 or even 2000 years.

Well we need to look at when Revelation was written was it written 30 to 40 years before 70AD or just a few years before 70AD if it was written in the mid 60's of the first century?

Remember that apostate Israel were the first to persecute the church and they were judged for it in 70AD.

We also need to remember that these souls were already dead when Revelation was written so it was well into the church's persecution under Israel.

Do you agree through the verses that I provided that they are christian saints?

 

[grafted branch]

I believe that Christ means He had not yet ascended physically. It seems Mary might have been content to stay with Her risen Lord, but He had a job for her. Perhaps Christ was remembering how Mary sat at His feet being content to allow her sister Martha to be the servant. Though Christ commended Mary then, at this time He didn't want her to stay there clinging to Him, because she would have time to hear the Lord before He ascended bodily into heaven which would be some 40 days later.

Luke 10:38-42 (KJV) Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Thanks, I’ve seen that argument before, the word “touch” <680> can mean to cling to. The counter argument to that is in Luke 24:29 where Jesus was constrained <3894> which goes much further than simply clinging to.

I don’t want to debate this point when we are in agreement on most of the other points, just sharing some information on this.

 

[rwb]

Well we need to look at when Revelation was written was it written 30 to 40 years before 70AD or just a few years before 70AD if it was written in the mid 60's of the first century?

Remember that apostate Israel were the first to persecute the church and they were judged for it in 70AD.

We also need to remember that these souls were already dead when Revelation was written so it was well into the church's persecution under Israel.

Do you agree through the verses that I provided that they are christian saints?

Sorry Marty but arguing over the timing for the writing of the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ I have discovered is an exercise in futility. Been there with Preterits and don't intend to go there again. It's questionable to me that Preterits must rely on the date of writing The Revelation to make their doctrine fit the Scriptures.

If these were New Covenant saints they would have known the name of Jesus. Yet is says only that they were slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held. Their testimony I have little doubt included prophecy of a Messiah/Savior who was to come. But unlike the martyrs of Rev 20 they were not said to be killed because they were witnesses of Jesus. They could not be witness of the name they never knew until Christ was called by that name after His birth.

They are saints of God and of Christ because they died in faith believing the Law pointing them to a Messiah, and they believed the Prophets that foretell of His coming.

 

[Marty fox]

Sorry Marty but arguing over the timing for the writing of the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ I have discovered is an exercise in futility. Been there with Preterits and don't intend to go there again. It's questionable to me that Preterits must rely on the date of writing The Revelation to make their doctrine fit the Scriptures.

If these were New Covenant saints they would have known the name of Jesus. Yet is says only that they were slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held. Their testimony I have little doubt included prophecy of a Messiah/Savior who was to come. But unlike the martyrs of Rev 20 they were not said to be killed because they were witnesses of Jesus. They could not be witness of the name they never knew until Christ was called by that name after His birth.

They are saints of God and of Christ because they died in faith believing the Law pointing them to a Messiah, and they believed the Prophets that foretell of His coming.

Did you read post #51? I showed that John called Jesus the word of God, this very same John who wrote both his gospel and Revelation.

Do you notice that your view is only assuming that their testimony wasn't about Jeus without any bases?

John called Jesus the word of God and these souls are killed because of their testimony of the word of God. They are also to wait until their brothers and sisters are all killed and are given white robes to wear.

Now lets look at how else Revelation also ties them altogether

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

These Saint are also called brothers and sisters and overcame even by death because of the word of their testimony

Revelation 19
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

These saints also have white robes thus revelation constantly ties them all together why do you not see it?

.

 

[Davy]

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. KJV

I’m not seeing the return of Christ here, it seems He returns after these things.

Just the fact of the events of verses 19-21 ought to be enough to know that happens on the day of Christ's future return. Every island fleeing away is an event that happens on the day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked, per the 6th Seal. It is also the event Jesus remarked about heaven and earth passing away linked with the day of His coming.

So really, I don't see how any 'true' Bible believer could miss the time of those events. And that makes me wonder just who you have come here representing.

 

[Davy]

1 there are the souls of believers who died for their testimony.
2 they ask a question
3 that question is answered

Since believers currently know with 100% confidence what the answer to the question will be, this means we don’t need to ask it in the first place.

Your statement above I put in bold-italics is where the problem is.

1. the souls of dead saints under the Altar asking the question is one group of God's servants that witnessed in past history.

2. their 'fellow servants' that are to be killed as they were because of giving a Testimony for Christ Jesus is a 2nd group, and is only for the future time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world. NO ONE today knows just who all those fellow-servants will be yet, simply because their time of that Testimony is not here yet today.


Thus your vain attempt to dwell on the phrase "How long" is just silliness, and is not the heart of the Message there.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Just the fact of the events of verses 19-21 ought to be enough to know that happens on the day of Christ's future return. Every island fleeing away is an event that happens on the day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked, per the 6th Seal. It is also the event Jesus remarked about heaven and earth passing away linked with the day of His coming.

So really, I don't see how any 'true' Bible believer could miss the time of those events. And that makes me wonder just who you have come here representing.

I don’t see how any true believer can’t interpret this..


Guess you’re not a true Bible believer… your logic is utterly ridiculous! to deny one’s belief in the Bible because they don’t agree with you!

Not to mention the seals aren’t poured out genius. Nor does it mark what you claim. Not even interested in your type of energy.. done.