How Many Judgements Of Being Cast Into The Lake of Fire Are There?

[Muna]

Yes I'm Amil in the sense a literal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth isn't found in scripture, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

I believe that the Olivet discourse is future unfulfilled,
1.) Matt 24:15 Daniel's AOD
2.) Matt 24:21 The Great Tribulation
3.) Matt 24:29-31 The Second Coming

Many preterist reformed Amil teach and believe that the afore mentioned took place in 66-70AD, and that Matthew 24:29-31 isn't a future literal second coming of Jesus in the heavens, but that it was a Judgement upon Israel in 70AD

Many preterist reformed Amil teach and believe that there won't be a future evil human man known as John's "The Beast"

Many preterist reformed Amil teach and believe that there won't be two literal prophets returned as the (Two Witnesses) in physical bodies, they believe and teach the (Two Witnesses) represent the old and new testaments

A few mentions on the differences of my belief compared to traditional preterist reformed Amillennialism

Thanks for responding Truth7t7, I was going to respond earlier but was taken up on another thread. Then I just caught you had responded again, and had added a little bit more into the one post.

I didnt know there was Amil and Premil some other various preterist reformed Amils, I thought I was just going between two opinions, I am so out of the loop. Thanks again, I will look these over.

 

[Jay Ross]

How many judgements are required to cast a person into the lake of fire?

Only one for each person.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How many judgements are required to cast a person into the lake of fire?

Only one for each person.

That isn't the question being asked in this thread. The question is how many judgment events will there be when people are cast into the lake of fire? The answer is one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for responding Truth7t7, I was going to respond earlier but was taken up on another thread. Then I just caught you had responded again, and had added a little bit more into the one post.

I didnt know there was Amil and Premil some other various preterist reformed Amils, I thought I was just going between two opinions, I am so out of the loop. Thanks again, I will look these over.

Don't rely on Truth7t7 to give you an accurate understanding of the different variations of Amil. While, like partial preterist Amils, I do believe that Matthew 24:15-21 was fulfilled in 70 AD, I do not believe Matthew 24:29-31 was fulfilled in 70 AD like they do. The tribulation of Matthew 24:15-21 was God's wrath against unbelieving Jews. Their city and temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD. Jesus explicitly said that the temple buildings would be destroyed in Matthew 24:1-2 and that is what spawned the Olivet Discourse in the first place. But, the tribulation that occurs just before Christ's second coming relates to increased deception and wickedness in the world, as Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:9-13 as well as in Matthew 24:23-26. Paul wrote about that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 as well.

 

[Muna]

Don't rely on Truth7t7 to give you an accurate understanding of the different variations of Amil. While, like partial preterist Amils, I do believe that Matthew 24:15-21 was fulfilled in 70 AD, I do not believe Matthew 24:29-31 was fulfilled in 70 AD like they do. The tribulation of Matthew 24:15-21 was God's wrath against unbelieving Jews. Their city and temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD. Jesus explicitly said that the temple buildings would be destroyed in Matthew 24:1-2 and that is what spawned the Olivet Discourse in the first place. But, the tribulation that occurs just before Christ's second coming relates to increased deception and wickedness in the world, as Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:9-13 as well as in Matthew 24:23-26. Paul wrote about that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 as well.

Thanks for filling me in SI, that was helpful info. I had thought there were just Amils and Premils but it hadn't even crossed my mind that there could be additional qualifiers in each of those views.

 

[Jay Ross]

The answer is one.

That is what I said.

However, the qualification is that each person will be judged once at the time of the final judgement, to decide whether they will enter "Heaven" or be dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

But we must remember that when a person physically dies, their destiny has already been decided because of their responses to God as to whether or not they had repented of all of their sins first before their physical death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is what I said.

You said one for each person, not one total. So, that could mean many different judgments for all anyone knows. You should have been more specific. So, you agree that there there will be just one judgment event of all people then?

However, the qualification is that each person will be judged once at the time of the final judgement, to decide whether they will enter "Heaven" or be dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

Right. Of course, that decision will have already been made before that. It's just the final sentencing, if you will.

But we must remember that when a person physically dies, their destiny has already been decided because of their responses to God as to whether or not they had repented of all of their sins first before their physical death.

Of course.

 

[Jay Ross]

You said one for each person, not one total. So, that could mean many different judgments for all anyone knows. You should have been more specific. So, you agree that there there will be just one judgment event of all people then?


Right. Of course, that decision will have already been made before that. It's just the final sentencing, if you will.


Of course.

Are we trying to determine how the implementation process for the Second Death will be administered?

 

[jeffweeder]

Are we trying to determine how the implementation process for the Second Death will be administered?

It seems to begin once the book of life is opened.
Once the last name added then everything will come quickly.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

See my post in my Thread - Ways That Amils Get Zechariah 14 Wrong.

 

[Davy]

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

When Revelation 20:4 says Christ's elect LIVE and REIGN with Him for a "thousand years", that IS... pointing directly to Christ's future EARTHLY KINGDOM established on earth. Just that idea of LIVING WITH CHRIST is about His elect being with Him emphatically, and serving Him at His table, Ezekiel 44 reveals. And mention of the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth later at Rev.20:9 also reveals this.

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

See Ezekiel 37:24-25...

Ezek 37:24-25
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
KJV

Sounds like you need to do a lot... more Old Testament Bible study. The idea of a "king" means being over a 'kingdom'. And that is GOD Himself declaring that above. Can you figure out Who that "one shepherd" is about?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

You'd first have to understand how Paul meant the idea "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:54, which I already know you don't have a clue about. It's about the 'soul'. For the wicked after Jesus returns, ONLY the wicked and those who fell away will still have a "mortal" soul subject to the "second death".

As for humans in the flesh, nope. That time will be over on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. All will be in their spirit bodies after the change at the twinkling of an eye, including the wicked. No more marriage nor having children either, as those things of this present time will be over and done with.

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

The above things I covered will exist, as written in God's Word. You're just not following what His Word shows, but instead what men say.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You failed to mention 2 Peter 3:9 with that on purpose, didn't you?

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

BOTH of those verses go together. Verse 9 is about the future REPENTANCE that some among the unsaved nations will do when they convert to Jesus in that future "thousand years", INCLUDING THE BLINDED JEWS WHICH GOD HIMSELF BLINDED AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL PER ROMANS 11!

And that is yet another... error that man's false Amil theory makes, showing it comes directly from the devil. That because Apostle Paul warned those in Christ TO NOT BE CONCEITED AGAINST THE UNBELIEVING JEWS, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God is going to REMOVE THE SPIRIT OF STUPOR He put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the unbelieving Jews, and THEN... they will convert to Jesus at His coming, and thus Paul says ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!

But the Amil doctrine from the devil that you have latched onto instead shows NO MERCY FROM GOD to those unbelieving Jews of today's world, and instead claim they are all going to perish in the "lake of fire"! Only the devil would think that, especially after what Apostle Paul himself showed in Romans 11 about those unbelieving Jews being saved in final!

 

[Truth7t7]

When Revelation 20:4 says Christ's elect LIVE and REIGN with Him for a "thousand years", that IS... pointing directly to Christ's future EARTHLY KINGDOM established on earth. Just that idea of LIVING WITH CHRIST is about His elect being with Him emphatically, and serving Him at His table, Ezekiel 44 reveals. And mention of the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth later at Rev.20:9 also reveals this.




See Ezekiel 37:24-25...

Ezek 37:24-25
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
KJV

Sounds like you need to do a lot... more Old Testament Bible study. The idea of a "king" means being over a 'kingdom'. And that is GOD Himself declaring that above. Can you figure out Who that "one shepherd" is about?




You'd first have to understand how Paul meant the idea "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:54, which I already know you don't have a clue about. It's about the 'soul'. For the wicked after Jesus returns, ONLY the wicked and those who fell away will still have a "mortal" soul subject to the "second death".

As for humans in the flesh, nope. That time will be over on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. All will be in their spirit bodies after the change at the twinkling of an eye, including the wicked. No more marriage nor having children either, as those things of this present time will be over and done with.




The above things I covered will exist, as written in God's Word. You're just not following what His Word shows, but instead what men say.



You failed to mention 2 Peter 3:9 with that on purpose, didn't you?

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

BOTH of those verses go together. Verse 9 is about the future REPENTANCE that some among the unsaved nations will do when they convert to Jesus in that future "thousand years", INCLUDING THE BLINDED JEWS WHICH GOD HIMSELF BLINDED AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL PER ROMANS 11!

And that is yet another... error that man's false Amil theory makes, showing it comes directly from the devil. That because Apostle Paul warned those in Christ TO NOT BE CONCEITED AGAINST THE UNBELIEVING JEWS, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God is going to REMOVE THE SPIRIT OF STUPOR He put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the unbelieving Jews, and THEN... they will convert to Jesus at His coming, and thus Paul says ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!

But the Amil doctrine from the devil that you have latched onto instead shows NO MERCY FROM GOD to those unbelieving Jews of today's world, and instead claim they are all going to perish in the "lake of fire"! Only the devil would think that, especially after what Apostle Paul himself showed in Romans 11 about those unbelieving Jews being saved in final!

Sorry, no earthly throne, kingdom, or mortal humans are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 as you claim, (A Fact)

 

[rwb]

When Revelation 20:4 says Christ's elect LIVE and REIGN with Him for a "thousand years", that IS... pointing directly to Christ's future EARTHLY KINGDOM established on earth. Just that idea of LIVING WITH CHRIST is about His elect being with Him emphatically, and serving Him at His table, Ezekiel 44 reveals. And mention of the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth later at Rev.20:9 also reveals this.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John sees souls alive after being physically martyred for remaining faithful unto death. If "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is in the future when Christ comes again, wouldn't they already be immortal & incorruptible? So, how could they be martyred AFTER a literal one thousand years? If they are not immortal & incorruptible, how could they live and reign with Christ for one thousand literal years in natural flesh & blood?

 

[rwb]

As for humans in the flesh, nope. That time will be over on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. All will be in their spirit bodies after the change at the twinkling of an eye, including the wicked. No more marriage nor having children either, as those things of this present time will be over and done with.

If the immortal & incorruptible body of saints resurrected when Christ comes again are spirit bodies, why does Scripture say the dead shall be called from the graves in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds? Why raise bodies from the graves if humans will be spirit?

 

[Davy]

Sorry, no earthly throne, kingdom, or mortal humans are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 as you claim, (A Fact)

Once again, you show your Biblical illiteracy, especially in the Old Testament Books.


Brethren in Christ:
Don't listen to those deceived like Truth7t7 who rejects simple Bible Scripture about our Lord Jesus Christ's future LITERAL REIGN upon this earth when He returns, as Christ's Kingdom in FINAL will be a PHYSICAL KINGDOM right here on earth where He will inherit and sit upon His THRONE from His flesh father David.

Ps 2:6-12
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
KJV

The "Zion" above is about LITERAL JERUSALEM, on earth. That is our Heavenly Father speaking about His Son Jesus Christ set as KING upon His holy hill in Jerusalem on earth.

It is NOT about some political motivation that some have against the idea of Christ's throne inherited from David being somewhere in Heaven today. It is not in Heaven today, Jesus today still sits on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven, still expecting (Heb.10:12-13). David's throne is an earthly throne, and God promised He would establish David's throne forever.

There still exists a seed in the world today sowed by the devil ("tares" of Matt.13) which hate the idea of God's Promise to David about his everlasting throne on earth, and that Christ is to come to sit upon it, on earth, as His inheritance. Satan's original sin was his coveting God's Throne in the old world, so Satan and his children of course hate this idea about Christ sitting upon David's earthly throne when He returns in our near future.


Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
KJV

Jesus revealed in the above verse that He won't come to sit upon His inherited throne from David UNTIL His 12 Apostles also come to sit upon 12 thrones judging over the 12 tribes of re-established Israel. As of this day, this prophecy is still yet unfulfilled, and won't be fulfilled until our Lord Jesus returns to earth at His 2nd coming in our near future.


Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

Christ Jesus is that "BRANCH"...

Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
KJV

That is about Lord Jesus Christ as that BRANCH. The Zech.6:12-13 verses above is about His future 2nd coming when Jesus will build the future MILLENNIAL temple at Jerusalem, on earth, and sit upon His inherited throne from David there, and thus will be BOTH King and High Priest at the same time upon that throne, which is a special OFFICE to be held ONLY by Jesus Christ upon His future throne.

Matt 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
KJV

Just where... the above will take place should be very easy to figure out, since it links to the future when Jesus returns and sits upon His inherited THRONE from David, and Jesus at that future time upon His throne will separate those UNSAVED "goats" from His sheep (His faithful Church).

Zech 14:8-9
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

That Zech.14 Scripture is especially important about the events that will occur on earth immediately after Christ's future 2nd coming. That Zech.14 reveals the WICKED leftover nations that will come upon against Jerusalem on the last day of this present world, will be made to come up to Jerusalem AFTER Jesus' future return, and worship Him as The KING (Zech.14:16-18). It even mentions the nation of Egypt, showing all that happens ON EARTH with many of today's nations STILL EXISTING after His future return! Even the Isaiah 19 Scripture simply reveals this...

(Continued...)

 

[Davy]

(Continued...)

Isa 19:22-25
22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and He shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
KJV

WOW! Who didn't know about GOD's future "highway" in the area of the middle east running from Egypt up through Israel, and into Assyria, in His FUTURE KINGDOM ON EARTH?

The devil's own and those deceived by him instead try... to create some billowy existence up in the clouds, like on some magic carpet ride or something. Nope, God has made it very plain that He is returning back here, to THIS earth to reign over all nations and peoples, upon the Throne of His inheritance, David's earthly throne. For those really sharp in studying their Bible, they should also realize God's Promise to David about his earthly throne is a Promise to establish it ON EARTH unto ALL generations, and forever. That means David's throne is STILL ESTABLISHED HERE ON EARTH TODAY, somewhere in the world, as per God's Promise to David. That... will be the throne which Lord Jesus will INHERIT when He returns to this earth, and the devil knows all this, and that's why he has been trying to destroy that earthly throne, but has not been able to. So wake up brethren in Christ, the war between Christ and His throne against His enemies is still going on today.

Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

There's one for the clueless of just where Christ's throne will be established at His future return. It is an earthly throne, because on earth is where that "house of Jacob" is promised by God to be re-restablished, in the holy lands God promised Israel's fathers, in the middle east, oh yeah, ON EARTH.

Ps 89:35-37
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before Me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Our Heavenly Father uses the above expression to get His point across about His everlasting Promise to David that He would establish David's earthly throne forever.

Dan 7:13-14
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before Him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV

Daniel in his vision saw Christ Jesus, "one like the Son of man". He saw Jesus being given a KINGDOM over ALL peoples and that it is an "everlasting dominion".

Dan 7:27
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
KJV

In Heaven, or "the kingdom under the whole heaven"? ("under" = OT8460 'beneath'). Which does it say there? It says UNDER the whole heaven, which means... ON EARTH. And Christ's "saints" are involved with that future KINGDOM ON EARTH? Yeah! What did you not understand about the meek shall inherit the earth?

Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
KJV

That is The Father speaking to His Son Jesus Christ about Jesus' throne existing forever. You want PROOF that Jesus of Nazareth is God as part of The GODHEAD? There it is, The Father calling Jesus "O God".

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

What? The "kingdoms of this world" will become those of The Father and His Son at that final 7th trumpet on the last day of this world? Yep! Some will say, "but I thought God will have His Own Kingdom established with Lord Jesus reigning in Heaven with His saints"? Recall the Isaiah 19 Scripture about God's future super "highway" running from Egypt through Israel and into Assyria in His future KINGDOM ON EARTH.

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

The above is special... proof that the UNSAVED NATIONS are NOT yet destroyed when Jesus returns at His 2nd coming. It proves there will... be a temporary time period when God will show those unsaved His Mercy in hope they will convert and serve His Son in His future "thousand years" Kingdom of Revelation 20.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John sees souls alive after being physically martyred for remaining faithful unto death. If "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is in the future when Christ comes again, wouldn't they already be immortal & incorruptible? So, how could they be martyred AFTER a literal one thousand years? If they are not immortal & incorruptible, how could they live and reign with Christ for one thousand literal years in natural flesh & blood?

I don't know where you got the idea about those of Rev.20:4 being about believers martyred after that "thousand years" of Rev.20, for that idea is nowhere written, and I definitely never suggested that idea.

That Rev.20:4 verse is pointing to the saints that will reign with Jesus, i.e., saints from the Old Testament, like the prophets and patriarchs (like Abraham), and then other saints later after the time of Christ's cross, including those of the "spirits in prison" that converted to Christ and were led out of Satan's prison house, and then saints that go through the great tribulation at the end of this world and remain faithful to Christ. The saints martyred at the end during the "great tribulation" are those which God told the souls under the Altar on the 5th Seal to wait for, as they will be killed as they were. All those martyred happen within this present world timing up to the day of Christ's future return. (See Foxe's Book of Martyrs).

What the written Word of God reveals on the matter of the incorruptible and immortality, which is what I have preached, is that ONLY GOD can destroy one's spirit & soul (Matt.10:28). And per Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.5, we all... already have the spirit body Paul taught, what Paul called the "spiritual body" per 1 Cor.15. Paul showed it is 'eternal' in the heavens, meaning it is a heavenly type body, not a flesh body. And that applies for both the just and the unjust. God created us all with that spirit body, which is the idea of one's 'spirit'. It is actually about our "image of the heavenly" that manifests in that other dimension of heaven. I am speaking 'reality' with that idea, not philosophically. This is how it literally is.

So is our spirit immortal already? Yes, in the sense that it is part of the world of Spirit, of that other dimension and not made of flesh. Yet it along with our 'soul' can both be destroyed together at the "second death" if without Faith on Jesus Christ. The "second death" Rev.20 shows will only happen after... the "thousand years". It is when only the unsaved will be cast into the "lake of fire", which is called the "second death".

 

[Davy]

If the immortal & incorruptible body of saints resurrected when Christ comes again are spirit bodies, why does Scripture say the dead shall be called from the graves in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds? Why raise bodies from the graves if humans will be spirit?

It appears you are thinking about flesh bodies as the body type for the future resurrection. It is not.

Per 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul taught the body 'type' of the resurrection is the "spiritual body". He also called it the "image of the heavenly" in that Chapter. At 1 Corinthians 15:50, Apostle Paul even said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body).

The idea that our dead decayed flesh body is raised from the grave literally is an expression. Now the flesh body of our Lord Jesus was literally raised from the dead, yet at some point His flesh body was transfigured back to His heavenly Spirit body (See 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Corinthians 15:45). Except Jesus' Spirit body kept the marks of His crucifixion as a remembrance for us. That does not happen for us. Our flesh bodies literally decay back to the material elements of the earth where it came from.

See Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, and Matthew 10:28, and 2 Corinthians 5, and Hebrews 4:12, and 1 Corinthians 15.

God created each one of us with 3 parts: a spirit (the spirit body, or spiritual body), a soul (our person), and a flesh body.

Our spirit body with soul is of the heavenly dimension order of Spirit.
Our flesh body is of the earthly material matter, this earthly dimension.

In John 3, Lord Jesus made a distinction between the dimension of Spirit in contrast to the dimension of flesh when He told Nicodemus that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. That is meant literally how it is.

How is it that you think God hears our prayers? and reveals His Truth by The Holy Spirit to us? It is by His Spirit connecting with our 'spirit' that dwells inside our flesh body. When Apostle John said he was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's day per Revelation 1:10, that's literally what John meant. In Isaiah 6, the prophet Isaiah was given a vision of God upon His throne. Isaiah thought he had died, because he saw God. How did Isaiah see that? By God showing Isaiah that via Isaiah's 'spirit' that dwelt inside his flesh body. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals that our 'spirit' came from God, that He gave it to us, and at flesh death our 'spirit' returns to God (i.e., revealed in the heavenly dimension).

And because Peter in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 showed that at Lord Jesus' resurrection He preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" in the heavenly dimension, so they might be judged according to man in the flesh, but live according to God in the 'spirit', that is another example of the two different dimensions with our 'spirit' manifesting in the heavenly dimension when our flesh body dies.

 

[rwb]

I don't know where you got the idea about those of Rev.20:4 being about believers martyred after that "thousand years" of Rev.20, for that idea is nowhere written, and I definitely never suggested that idea.

I'm not arguing they lived and reigned and were martyred after the thousand years. I'm quoting John who tells us they lived and reigned with Christ during this time period he writes as "a thousand years." They had to have been martyred before they physically died, because they were faithful unto death. They cannot be martyred after the thousand years, because it is after the seventh/last trumpet sounds that they shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible. Once immortal & incorruptible they shall never die. And once they are immortal they shall live with Christ, not for one thousand years, but forever.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That Rev.20:4 verse is pointing to the saints that will reign with Jesus, i.e., saints from the Old Testament, like the prophets and patriarchs (like Abraham), and then other saints later after the time of Christ's cross, including those of the "spirits in prison" that converted to Christ and were led out of Satan's prison house, and then saints that go through the great tribulation at the end of this world and remain faithful to Christ. The saints martyred at the end during the "great tribulation" are those which God told the souls under the Altar on the 5th Seal to wait for, as they will be killed as they were. All those martyred happen within this present world timing up to the day of Christ's future return.

I agree the martyred souls are those who were faithful unto death from Israel of Old, as well as those first century Jewish Christians martyred for their faith. I also agree these are the bodies of saints that came out of the graves after the resurrection of Christ. But they were not physical bodies, but a spiritual body of Christ who died in faith waiting for Christ to come to redeem them. And He did this by first descending into the graves to set the captives free and took them with Him when He ascended up to the Kingdom of God in heaven. They won't be physically alive again until the time that is coming when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So is our spirit immortal already?

Immortality belongs to physical flesh, not to spirit. When we believe in Christ, having been born again through Christ's Spirit in us our spirit possesses eternal life and can never die. Our spirit that ascends to heaven after our body of flesh is dead returns with Christ to once again give life to our resurrected body of flesh that is changed to immortal & incorruptible body fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

We have blessed assurance from Christ that the life we receive when we have been born again is eternal spiritual life because He has promised us that death of our body cannot kill our spirit.

Our spirit is eternal because it never grows old and in Christ can never die. Our flesh must be changed to immortal and incorruptible because all flesh is destined to grow sick, old and shall die.

 

[rwb]

It appears you are thinking about flesh bodies as the body type for the future resurrection. It is not.

You aren't making a distinction between the spirit in man that gives us physical life, and the physical body that is destined to die.

Per 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul taught the body 'type' of the resurrection is the "spiritual body". He also called it the "image of the heavenly" in that Chapter. At 1 Corinthians 15:50, Apostle Paul even said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body).

Exactly! According to Paul we don't become a spiritual body when our body of flesh is resurrected immortal. We became the spiritual body of Christ the moment we believed and spiritually entered the Kingdom of God in heaven. Paul tells us that in physical death we don't cease to be the spiritual body of Christ when we ascend to heaven after our mortal flesh is dead. It cannot because we have this assurance that not even death can separate us from the love of Christ. And that just as Christ has been raised up from the dead, so too shall He give life (immortal) to our body of flesh. Why? Because:

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 8:9-11 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:29-35 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:37-39 (KJV) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God created each one of us with 3 parts: a spirit (the spirit body, or spiritual body), a soul (our person), and a flesh body.

Man was created with dust of the earth (body) with breath of life (spirit) and together became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (flesh) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (spirit) and man became a living soul.