How much ungodly behavior do you see in the church?

[Dave L]

I've heard of Christians turning to home groups. The place I do most of my growing is in personal bible study. I still like being with other believers and we go to bible study when I'm able.

I think it's a shame though that churches are failing their members this way. I learned a lot through all those experiences and I know exactly what you mean by "pastors saying just enough to remain Christian." One thing I do have control over is whether or not I financially support a church, and I couldn't, in good conscience, put money into a plate at the above churches.

I've seen pastors willing to sell out Christ worse than Judas Iscariot. There are a lot of Judas' in the world. The one loose-goosey church we went to were so corrupt that the pastor left. All the doubts I had about them, the pastor confirmed when he invited my husband & I over his house. It was too late though - they had already cheated us. I learned to trust my instincts, but my husband didn't trust my instincts and we were badly burned. The corrupt family replaced the pastor and I emailed him. His wife I believe, is who answered me and kept asking what I wanted. She screened his emails I suppose. Finally I sent the message through her and asked her to pass on the message. I told her that Sullivan's cheated us and I wanted to know how the Word of God came out of that Pastor's mouth.

She never responded.

They knew the family who owned the church was corrupt and cheated and hurt a lot of people, but the pastor was willing to sell his soul for 30 pieces of silver.

So I learned how even Pastors sell out biblical precepts when it comes to money. I had my suspicions, but that family worshipped money, and didn't care if they had to cheat others to get it. I think they were stealing from the donations. When my mother died we had her funeral there and in lieu of flowers they asked for church donations. I had a handful of cash and handed it over to one of the family members. She snatched that cash from my hand like a dog snapping for a bone. Looking back, I wished I had never agreed to donations for that corrupt church.

The only thing I can do now is warn others about that "church" - the way I was warned early on, but my husband refused to listen. I agree that you need to find out for yourself, but if someone else warns you, I think you should be on guard. - I guess the bitterness still comes out now and then and I try to forgive, but it's hard.

One thing I always do is pray that God would open their heart to love the truth, or to expose them for what they are. It seems he exposes them more than not.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Yes, Soverign Grace, this is part of why the church lacks power. It's because respect of persons leads to resentments, and this in turn leads to divisions, which then leads to the quenching of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:26-32, 1 Thessalonians 5:15-24).

What you have to understand here is that there IS no holiness without power of the Holy Spirit. None. And while churches should be ablaze with the Holy Spirit, what we instead have are dying embers at best. While there should be a downpour, what we instead have is the slightest little drizzle if anything at all. Irresponsible teaching is mostly to blame. Most are just fine with this situation so they bring no attention to the problem, and don't implore their congregations to seek God in fasting and prayer for a return to Christianity the way it was practiced during New Testament times. What you end up with is churches just putting on an act. They play church rather give themselves to incessant prayer every night for years if necessary until they again see the Holy Spirit poured out in power to heal the sick, raise the dead, and prophesy by the Spirit of God. And because most are satisfied, this is where they will stay until something changes.

As for the point about the prophets being hated, say these things to most churches today and you will not be well-received. It shines the light on both their spiritual immaturity and their sin. But doing so with those who have ears to hear is necessary if we are ever going to see things turn around. I strongly believe we will eventually, but not anytime soon. The church - especially in the West - is going to have go through Hell first, until she wakes up from her spiritual lethargy and finally gets it together, and that's taking a long time to get here. Too long.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Btw, I've seen more partially from pastors and leaders than from anyone else.

So you've seen it too. Why do you think pastors are partial? I'd like to get to the root of it so we can turn things around. Although in my experiences, the sinning church leaders I encountered didn't want to hear the truth; they were content with their safe little spot being the Kings and Queens of the little empires they built - and they found a congregation full of people willing to go along with the status quo - who didn't think for themselves and say "there is something wrong here." And the leaders wanted to squash and/ or remove the person who thought independently and pointed out their sin. Like Herodias with John the Baptist. Only these were people who were supposed to be representing God. It really threw me for a loop.

I see what you're saying - it ends up with churches putting on an act - with everyone just going through the motions. That's why I left Catholicism; it was all a bunch of people going to church, following the leader, repeating meaningless phrases.

I think it's high time the church woke up now, because look around - this world is becoming inhospitable for Christians. You have feel-good pastors like Osteen in his mansion, compromising with the world, and not even getting into the bible in-depth. Look at how many people he's misleading - his church is packed. Preachers of old seemed to have a grasp on what the church stood for. How did that get lost? More importantly - how can we bring about a Revival? Why can't it start with us?

 

[Willie T]

So you've seen it too. Why do you think pastors are partial? I'd like to get to the root of it so we can turn things around. Although in my experiences, the sinning church leaders I encountered didn't want to hear the truth; they were content with their safe little spot being the Kings and Queens of the little empires they built - and they found a congregation full of people willing to go along with the status quo - who didn't think for themselves and say "there is something wrong here." And the leaders wanted to squash and/ or remove the person who thought independently and pointed out their sin. Like Herodias with John the Baptist. Only these were people who were supposed to be representing God. It really threw me for a loop.

I see what you're saying - it ends up with churches putting on an act - with everyone just going through the motions. That's why I left Catholicism; it was all a bunch of people going to church, following the leader, repeating meaningless phrases.

I think it's high time the church woke up now, because look around - this world is becoming inhospitable for Christians. You have feel-good pastors like Osteen in his mansion, compromising with the world, and not even getting into the bible in-depth. Look at how many people he's misleading - his church is packed. Preachers of old seemed to have a grasp on what the church stood for. How did that get lost? More importantly - how can we bring about a Revival? Why can't it start with us?

It CAN start with YOU. But, you have to want it to. And that comes by not worrying about whether or not someone else is "doing it."

 

[Enoch111]

So you've seen it too. Why do you think pastors are partial? I'd like to get to the root of it so we can turn things around.

1. The general modern practice of a one-man ministry is probably at the root of all the issues. God never intended one man to carry the load, and Moses had to learn this the hard way. And even those who are Presbyterians have changed the meaning of *presbytery* (which was meant to be within the local church, not a denominational thing).

2. If every church has a plurality of elders who were actually called by God to be elders, they would ensure that everything was done *by the Book*.

3. It is far too late *to turn things around*. You can do whatever you are able to do, and leave the rest to God. We are in the midst of the Great Apostasy.

 

[Waiting on him]

To the OP the problem i see is a lack of true Godly humility. The power everyone is looking for is imo a misunderstanding look at Christ’s cross, Paul a thorn in the flesh to humble him. Which is easier to say I heal you in the name of Jesus, or I forgive that you just slapped my face, what takes power to accomplish?

 

[Hidden In Him]

So you've seen it too. Why do you think pastors are partial? I'd like to get to the root of it so we can turn things around. Although in my experiences, the sinning church leaders I encountered didn't want to hear the truth; they were content with their safe little spot being the Kings and Queens of the little empires they built - and they found a congregation full of people willing to go along with the status quo - who didn't think for themselves and say "there is something wrong here."

You're answering your own question, Soverign Grace. Even those with the best intentions still build their own empires - empires which they naturally run the way they see fit - and almost invariably favor those who "share their vision" (as I've heard it put), but disfavor to those who don't.

See, the Spirit of God is the only thing that can truly sort messes like this out, IMO. As Enoch was saying, church was never intended to be a one-man show; it was originally designed by God to be participatory, in keeping with 1 Corinthians 14:26. The trouble is that when everyone contributes to the teaching of the church, you start running into a lot of differences of opinion on doctrine, something the early church also struggled with. But they worked it out through the power of the Holy Spirit among them, especially prophetic utterance, whereby the Spirit spoke directly to affirm true doctrines from false ones (1 Timothy 4:1-3), distinguish true believers walking in holiness from sinners (1 Corinthians 5:1-5), and expose false prophets for not truly serving the Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 2:20-25).

Those who think we will ever correct matters like these without the power of God are dreaming. There is today no FEAR of God the way there once was; fear through which they were perfecting holiness during New Testament times (2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:17). Until the fear of God returns to the churches, you can tell them "there is something wrong here" until you are blue in the face and no one will pay much attention, let alone do anything about it.

 

[Soverign Grace]

It CAN start with YOU. But, you have to want it to. And that comes by not worrying about whether or not someone else is "doing it."

I already began evangelizing again, but if no one "worries about whether or not someone else is doing it" nothing will change. Somebody has to try to initiate revival. I feel sorry for the world we've left to this next generation. I talked to the spouse of a family member yesterday who told me she can't stand watching the news because it gives her anxiety. Where is the church? The church should be the restraining power in the world and it's not. Christianity is under attack like never before.

 

[Soverign Grace]

1. The general modern practice of a one-man ministry is probably at the root of all the issues. God never intended one man to carry the load, and Moses had to learn this the hard way. And even those who are Presbyterians have changed the meaning of *presbytery* (which was meant to be within the local church, not a denominational thing).

2. If every church has a plurality of elders who were actually called by God to be elders, they would ensure that everything was done *by the Book*.

3. It is far too late *to turn things around*. You can do whatever you are able to do, and leave the rest to God. We are in the midst of the Great Apostasy.

I don't like that type of thinking - I see too many Christians rolling over and accepting things instead of trying to make a difference. I know we're to shine like lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, but I think we should do more. What I see in church are people concerned about what type of music is going to be played more than a concern for the important things. "These things ye should have done and left the others undone."

I agree we're in very bad times - times so bad I can't stand reading the news for long because it's too crazy. I've never studied Revival but I'm sure it began with a few committed people.

I saw the power of prayer once. Our local elementary school had a corrupt principal. I hated my children going to that school because he didn't run it well and he was a liar. So an older saint and I began to pray for his removal. We prayed for a number of months when a bus driver I was friends with called me to tell me he was fired. I couldn't believe it. I wish all my prayers were answered like that. I don't know if it was because the older saint and I both prayed, or if she was holy and her prayers accounted for more with God - I don't know. But I was thinking about asking everyone here to pray for the removal of corrupt people and see if we can bring about the same results.

Is there someone who we can agree on to pray for their removal? Does anyone have any suggestions? Who has done more to hurt Christians?

 

[farouk]

I already began evangelizing again, but if no one "worries about whether or not someone else is doing it" nothing will change. Somebody has to try to initiate revival. I feel sorry for the world we've left to this next generation. I talked to the spouse of a family member yesterday who told me she can't stand watching the news because it gives her anxiety. Where is the church? The church should be the restraining power in the world and it's not. Christianity is under attack like never before.

As I see it, the church is heading for the rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4 - rather than heading for sweeping the world into righteousness...

Meanwhile we are here to spread the Gospel to individuals, who, if they are converted, will not be typical of the world...

 

[Soverign Grace]

To the OP the problem i see is a lack of true Godly humility. The power everyone is looking for is imo a misunderstanding look at Christ’s cross, Paul a thorn in the flesh to humble him. Which is easier to say I heal you in the name of Jesus, or I forgive that you just slapped my face, what takes power to accomplish?

I'm unsure what you mean?

 

[Soverign Grace]

You're answering your own question, Soverign Grace. Even those with the best intentions still build their own empires - empires which they naturally run the way they see fit - and almost invariably favor those who "share their vision" (as I've heard it put), but disfavor to those who don't.

See, the Spirit of God is the only thing that can truly sort messes like this out, IMO. As Enoch was saying, church was never intended to be a one-man show; it was originally designed by God to be participatory, in keeping with 1 Corinthians 14:26. The trouble is that when everyone contributes to the teaching of the church, you start running into a lot of differences of opinion on doctrine, something the early church also struggled with. But they worked it out through the power of the Holy Spirit among them, especially prophetic utterance, whereby the Spirit spoke directly to affirm true doctrines from false ones (1 Timothy 4:1-3), distinguish true believers walking in holiness from sinners (1 Corinthians 5:1-5), and expose false prophets for not truly serving the Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 2:20-25).

Those who think we will ever correct matters like these without the power of God are dreaming. There is today no FEAR of God the way there once was; fear through which they were perfecting holiness during New Testament times (2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:17). Until the fear of God returns to the churches, you can tell them "there is something wrong here" until you are blue in the face and no one will pay much attention, let alone do anything about it.

I see the things you're pointing out. I've seen so much in churches and I couldn't persuade them to do the right thing. But I still think we can pray for Revival.

From Adrian Rogers:

To the saints who’ve been chloroformed by the spirit of this age, Dr. R. A. Torrey said,

“I have a theory…that there is not a church, chapel, or mission on earth where you cannot have revival, provided there is a little nucleus of faithful people who will hold onto God until He comes down. First, let a few Christians—there need not be many—get thoroughly right with God themselves. This is the prime essential. If this is not done, the rest, I’m sorry to say, cannot be done, and it will come to nothing. Second, let them bind themselves together to pray for revival until God opens the heavens and comes down. Third, let them put themselves at the disposal of God to use them as He sees fit in winning others to Christ. That’s all. This is sure to bring revival in any church or community. I have given this prescription around the world. It has been taken by many churches and many communities, and in no instance has it ever failed, and it cannot fail.”

 

[Waiting on him]

I'm unsure what you mean?

Me too!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I already began evangelizing again, but if no one "worries about whether or not someone else is doing it" nothing will change. Somebody has to try to initiate revival. I feel sorry for the world we've left to this next generation. I talked to the spouse of a family member yesterday who told me she can't stand watching the news because it gives her anxiety. Where is the church? The church should be the restraining power in the world and it's not. Christianity is under attack like never before.

The power of the Church is about changing hearts. It's not about grabbing news headlines or imposing political power. It's about each individual being a window to Christ.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see the things you're pointing out. I've seen so much in churches and I couldn't persuade them to do the right thing. But I still think we can pray for Revival.

From Adrian Rogers:

To the saints who’ve been chloroformed by the spirit of this age, Dr. R. A. Torrey said,

“I have a theory…that there is not a church, chapel, or mission on earth where you cannot have revival, provided there is a little nucleus of faithful people who will hold onto God until He comes down. First, let a few Christians—there need not be many—get thoroughly right with God themselves. This is the prime essential. If this is not done, the rest, I’m sorry to say, cannot be done, and it will come to nothing. Second, let them bind themselves together to pray for revival until God opens the heavens and comes down. Third, let them put themselves at the disposal of God to use them as He sees fit in winning others to Christ. That’s all. This is sure to bring revival in any church or community. I have given this prescription around the world. It has been taken by many churches and many communities, and in no instance has it ever failed, and it cannot fail.”

This is a good quote. I agree with it except for making "getting right with God" a necessity for revival. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before God anyway, so the only real priority is calling down the power and presence of God through prayer and fasting. Sanctification comes through the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit through sanctification.

Other than that, I agree with both of them.
(and you).

 

[Soverign Grace]

The power of the Church is about changing hearts. It's not about grabbing news headlines or imposing political power. It's about each individual being a window to Christ.

How do you change hearts? No one said it's about "grabbing news headlines or imposing political power." But there is a restraining power when the church begins to influence mans behavior. I'm reading a book by Arthur Wallis who said the church has become "anemic." And this book was written years back.

 

[Soverign Grace]

As I see it, the church is heading for the rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4 - rather than heading for sweeping the world into righteousness...

Meanwhile we are here to spread the Gospel to individuals, who, if they are converted, will not be typical of the world...

Shouldn't churches be evangelizing then? Shouldn't we be? I see Christians as sitting back and not doing this; we're all convinced we're in the end times. But what if the end time doesn't happen for 100 more years? Or even 15 or 10? We'll have neglected our duty to fulfill the first commission. We attended one of the unbiblical churches we stumbled through, and the pastor and his cronies used church funds to travel to some island to "evangelize." It was a joke to those with any discernment. They could walk out the front door of the church and evangelize. I saw how Christians "spiritualize" their sins or lies. When the church closed, the area it was in was just as bad as when they opened.

Just out of curiosity - who here evangelizes? Does your church? If anyone is interested, you can go online and find tracts to order and hand out. Why can't revival start with us?

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Read more: What Is The Great Commission? Bible Verse and Explanation

 

[Soverign Grace]

This is a good quote. I agree with it except for making "getting right with God" a necessity for revival. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before God anyway, so the only real priority is calling down the power and presence of God through prayer and fasting. Sanctification comes through the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit through sanctification.

Other than that, I agree with both of them.
(and you).

I take it to mean cleansing our own hearts if we're involved in any sin or wrong attitudes.

We had a local principal who was a liar and allowed things to go on in the schools that was wrong. An older saint and I began praying for his removal. Within a certain period of months he was removed. Not all of my prayers have been answered so clearly (I'm still waiting on some to be answered) but I saw that we could effect change.

Who do you think is the person in the world now who is doing the most harm against God and christianity? Name him or her and we can begin praying for his or her removal from their position where they can't spread harm anymore. We can try it and see if God is also of a mind to remove that person. I realize it has to be God's will, but if it worked before it can work again.

 

[bbyrd009]

the sinning church leaders I encountered didn't want to hear the truth

no offense ok, but pls contemplate the sin in calling them "Church" leaders if you will. I mean, see how you are giving them a place?

 

[bbyrd009]

Where is the church?

A more pertinent Q here is surely "What is the Church?"

 

[bbyrd009]

Who do you think is the person in the world now who is doing the most harm against God and christianity? Name him or her and we can begin praying for his or her removal from their position where they can't spread harm anymore.

And what if it is your name that comes up, wadr? What then?
Understand that I am not saying that it is ok, but purely as a mental exercise