How should the church service be structured

[marks]

They were to let the Spirit of peace arbitrate among them (Colossians 3:15) in the midst of ministering one another (Colossians 3:16).

That's not really what this is talking about.

Let the peace of Christ rule . . . in your heart. That's where this needs to happen, before matters even get outside the heart. This is about you having the right heart before God.

Once we've got a clear path from God in our hearts, THEN we will be able to minister to others, without it being just about whatever we think should happen.

All can and should be allowed to give utterance, teaching, psalm, prophecy, revelation, as the Spirit leads. Prophecy, dreams, visions, and the rest of spiritual gifts will be the hallmark of the end-time church.

All can . . . but not all should. We need discernment.

There are people in churches who want to be prophets but aren't. Who want to be teachers but aren't. And given the opportunity, will garner the attention to themselves, but won't be contributing from the Holy Spirit.

The overseers need to be strongly grounded in the Word, to be able to sort between these.

When I have 'the peace of Christ' for my idea, but someone else has 'the peace of Christ' for their idea, and its going to be this way, or that way, then there has to be a way to know the right way.

Peace subjectively in our heart has a better application in God leading us personally, it's just between me and Him. But in leading us as a group, and particularly when there is difference of opinion, we need to have a clear way to show everyone what is right, other than, "I just know God said I'm right and you're wrong! I have a real peace about that!" I'm sure you know the problems with that!

I believe that any church to be effective has to have a strong teaching ministry, not that other things are less important, but this is very important. Weak and inaccurate teaching leads to poor understanding of God, which fails to develop our faith, which leaves us less capable to walk by faith.

One last note: In congregations where the Spirit does not arbitrate among the members, this leaves the leaders - those most led by the Spirit and having the most spiritual authority - to intervene and keep the peace by force, i.e. through correction and rebuke if necessary. This is where you need strong, well-educated, Spirit-led and Spirit-empowered leadership, who will keep the Spirit on the throne of a congregation where He belongs, and not allow things to be given over to the enemy.

Hopefully not much force is needed!

But yes, there has to be someone to call the meeting to order sometimes. Ones who are known for their love for the brethren, so their correction is received in the right spirit. Ones who can faithfully and knowledgably apply the Scriptures, so the others can know this is God's way, and he's not just making it up.

I think the best way is to disciple your flock into a spiritual life, thinking heavenly things, getting into the habit of actively relying on God for everything, searching the Word to know Him better.

It's a tough one sometimes! To bring correction. To bring disappointment. And that people will receive it as a gift. So many don't.

Much love!

 

[Agios]

My church does things differently than your standard Protestant one.

-Nobody is paid. All positions are filled with volunteers that have regular day jobs. Positions switch around frequently (roughly 1-5 years).

-There is no central sermon. Rather there's ~3 mini-sermons (~10 mins) by different members of the congregation every week, including youth. The downside of this is that folks are seldom professional-grade public speakers/theologians. The upside is fellowship: hearing practical examples of people practicing their faith in regular life.

All in all, it really encourages owning your own faith and being a part of a community. You speak from the pulpit occasionally, you teach Sunday School, you share your experiences, and you hear how "Bob" sitting next to you is doing likewise.

This sounds refreshing, wish others would do this.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Peace subjectively in our heart has a better application in God leading us personally, it's just between me and Him. But in leading us as a group, and particularly when there is difference of opinion, we need to have a clear way to show everyone what is right, other than, "I just know God said I'm right and you're wrong! I have a real peace about that!" I'm sure you know the problems with that!

Paul is talking specifically about the Spirit of God governing each believer's behavior, so that they don't lash out and get into heated arguments. All matters of dispute among congregations can be resolved if they remain governed by the Spirit of peace, having "put on" the bonds of love. But if they don't... trouble.

For me, the verses that follow establish that the gifts in operation are what is being referred to:

15 And let the peace of God arbitrate in your hearts, to the which also you are called in one body; and give thanks. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto the Lord. 17 And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks unto God and the Father through Him.

To give thanks "through Him" is to operate in divine utterance. The context here is a church service, during which the gifts are in operation. Giving thanks through the gifts is mentioned twice, in keeping with 1 Corinthians 14:14-17

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also. I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when you shalt bless with the Spirit, how shall he that occupies the room of the unlearned say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, seeing he does not understand what you said? 17 For you truly gave thanks well, but the other is not edified.

The reference here to giving thanks as a body through the spiritual gifts is in keeping with Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 12, and "teaching" and "singing psalms" to one another goes back to 1 Corinthians 14:26:

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

 

[marks]

This sounds refreshing, wish others would do this.

Small groups. I love them!

 

[marks]

and let the peace of Christ rule . . . in your heart.

 

[marks]

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

An interesting things here is . . .

Everyone has something they want to say. Let everything be done unto edification.

This part is descriptive and not prescriptive:

when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.

But this part IS prescriptive:

Let all things be done unto edifying

This passage is not saying that every who wants to speak should. It is defining the criteria by which they should. Not all things edify.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

On this forum we see little of "Church service." A kind word of encouragement. An offer or of help if possible. But what we see on Christian Forums, is bullying and aggressive behaviour and that is also reflective in the "Denominational Churches." Many "Pastors" or "Preachers" or "Reverend" people have coveted acceptance of their title by agreeing to be conformed to the "Theological Understanding" of the particular denomination that they have signed up to.

The Church that Christ Spoke of, were the active Godly Deeds of His Saints, is often done in private and secretly so that God is the recipient of all the Glory in our actions.

If you are talking about getting more bums on seats, and keeping them happy, then you are talking about a "club" and not a church.

 

[FollowHim]

Marksman and I have been looking into the value (or not) of the structure of the typical church service, in which a central leader delivers a sermon. I'm hesitant to dismiss the pastor, the sermon, and most of the churches in America and across the world. But I do take seriously the point marksman raised, that sermons are often weak. And I do think there could be important changes made in the structure of the service, to make ministry more efficient.

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Or, if you have an experience that may contribute to understanding the good or bad in this, please speak up!

I've had a long and varied experience in church, but of course, I'm limited by my own upbringing and experience. My own experience with the traditional sermon has not been that good on many occasion. But I don't wish to place the blame on pastors, who have simply been raised up and taught by a system that placed too much weight on them as an individual. See Exodus 18:25.

As I said elsewhere, as the main paid minister in a church, the pastor is expected to do the business of the church as well as provide the ministry of the word. This kind of administration is more than what I see the Bible as specifying. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives a diversity of gifts as He wishes.

So let me know what you think?

52 sermons a year if you go to church every sunday, is actually not very much considering the depth and wealth of the issues in scripture. A sermon of 40 minutes can scratch the surface. For those who study little without this there is zero teaching in their lives.

The power of sharing is the depth of the walk one walks. Just think here on these forums how much time is put into just a few posts. And this only scraps the initial introduction to a subject or even ones own perspective. After many years in house groups, still a word like love does not create the full balanced reality of it.

Testimonies of peoples experiences is critical to give practical applications of the word to our hearts. Praise and worship lifts our hearts up to the Lord and encourages one another. Discussing the theology after a service can truly bless people and encourage further investigation and searching for blessing.

So my heart is just for more, for enthusiasm and for each of us to take ownership of how we can contribute more. God bless you

 

[Nancy]

The service should be lead by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

I gotta say, I love these verses. I love the ORDER of them because I have lived the dis-orderly interpretation of these, and other verses...and what that lead me to was chaos and confusion.
I wonder...how would one know when to keep silent? How would they know there was not interpreter in the gathering?

 

[quietthinker]

How should the church service be structured ....
Stop playing Church....that should solve most issues!
But how can can this be done if truth takes the back seat to money and status.

 

[mjrhealth]

Here we go again, building another "church". What shall we keep what shall we throw out. Is not our Lords Church with Him as teacher and head enough.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Justin Martyr describes Christian worship (c.150 AD)
from chapters 61-67 of Justin’s First Apology
.

Thanks for this Charis. Lady! I love source material and the Early Church records.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

Here are some thoughts . . .

The first church was a megachurch, with upwards of 8 or 10,000 meeting daily at the temple. The first gentile church in Antioch was also a megachurch, with Paul and others teaching regularly for a year I think.

In the church I fellowship, we give the pastor a salary so he doesn't have to divide his attention. But he doesn't do the administrative stuff. We have other paid staff and volunteers that take care of all that.

As far at the strength of the sermon, I think that most meaningful thing we can do is pray, before, during.

I feel that we benefit from various different styles of meetings. I want to sing then be taught for awhile. But I also want the small group where we discuss the Scriptures together, and take time for everyone to share their gifts. So the home Bible studies, potluck, all that, very meaningful.

I think every church is different, and every group of people have unique needs.

I think the CEO style of church, a "senior pastor", isn't what God has in mind, instead, a group of elders all equal, no "senior". All sharing in teaching and preaching.

I like a formal teaching setting, to be able hear an in-depth teaching without interruption. And outside of that, I think the more people who are involved in things the better, only as the Lord leads.

Much love!

I agree with nearly all of this. Excellent!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Another point to add:
If people are coming from a background where they're used to "church" being defined as showing up for an hour on Sunday for an hour for a rock concert and a charismatic public speaker, and that's the end, then.... well my church's style of doing things is a major culture shock kick in the pants. Yes, it is a LOT more time & energy investment, but I personally think it's really really worth it.

I attended a meeting by an author named Devern Fromke many years ago, and he said something to the effect that you can't dress up the cross in lovely flowers and bouquets. The cross remains the cross--an instrument of torture. The only thing that draws us to Christ is Christ himself--otherwise it would be sheer madness!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You forgot long-winded.

Excellent thread! And this right here is going to distinguish the end-time church from what we have now.


What pastors are up against here is the natural result of allowing the congregation to actually discuss doctrines and beliefs in an informal service. Only a matter of time before a battle is going to erupt, and a serious dispute will then ensue, potentially dividing people into camps. But that's just it. The New Testament church did NOT simply throw out the baby with the bathwater to make things "safe." They were to let the Spirit of peace arbitrate among them (Colossians 3:15) in the midst of ministering one another (Colossians 3:16). The problem, however, is that if you do not have people who will allow the Spirit to govern them, the result will be that they give themselves over to strife, and this in turn quenches the Spirit among them (Ephesians 4:25-32).

But people must be free to speak with the Spirit of God gives them so they can contribute to the edification of the body. This is what Paul was after in teaching that even the most uncomely of our members will be granted great honor (1 Corinthians 12:21-25). Everyone is to be used by the Spirit of God, from the youngest to the oldest (Joel 2:28), so that no one is left out. All can and should be allowed to give utterance, teaching, psalm, prophecy, revelation, as the Spirit leads. Prophecy, dreams, visions, and the rest of spiritual gifts will be the hallmark of the end-time church.

One last note: In congregations where the Spirit does not arbitrate among the members, this leaves the leaders - those most led by the Spirit and having the most spiritual authority - to intervene and keep the peace by force, i.e. through correction and rebuke if necessary. This is where you need strong, well-educated, Spirit-led and Spirit-empowered leadership, who will keep the Spirit on the throne of a congregation where He belongs, and not allow things to be given over to the enemy.

Another excellent comment!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I believe the the church services should be structured around a liturgy. My church uses the liturgy from the book of common prayer modified for our church.

I was raised up in liturgy and ritual, and I benefited from it. I still have the creeds somewhat memorized, and know the central doctrines of the church. Some hymns I've been able to hear in the back of my mind. The ritual of the catechism in the church I grew up in was central to establishing me on biblical truth.

Experience, however, produces natural impulses, and I would personally like some spontaneity. A combination of ritual and spontaneity would work for me. As marksman argued, so much biblical teaching has been lost due to the centrality of the sermon system. But those of us who had a bad experience in ritualistic religion would not likely want to go back to rehearsed praise.

 

[Ezra]

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

let the Holy spirit lead

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello

On this forum we see little of "Church service." A kind word of encouragement. An offer or of help if possible. But what we see on Christian Forums, is bullying and aggressive behaviour and that is also reflective in the "Denominational Churches." Many "Pastors" or "Preachers" or "Reverend" people have coveted acceptance of their title by agreeing to be conformed to the "Theological Understanding" of the particular denomination that they have signed up to.

The Church that Christ Spoke of, were the active Godly Deeds of His Saints, is often done in private and secretly so that God is the recipient of all the Glory in our actions.

If you are talking about getting more bums on seats, and keeping them happy, then you are talking about a "club" and not a church.

This is a bit cynical for me, even if true. Something God gave me recently was the idea that He presented the 7 churches of Asia in Rev 1 as "golden lampstands." Do you realize that God even saw the church at Laodicea as a "golden lampstand?" Churches may be lukewarm, and flawed, but God is still looking at them as His People, recognizing that as much as they do that is of the Spirit.

Aggressive behavior is human, and the thing that we are called to "overcome by the Spirit." So it shouldn't throw us off, but just invite us to persevere. On forums it is even more difficult, because there are all kinds here, and all kinds of misunderstandings. We have to hope that many here will draw upon the Spirit when things get "challenging?"

Yes, pastors have to represent their denominations, and do have the duty of keeping order among a people that are "difficult." Moses himself had an "impossible" task in managing an entire nation out in the desert!

But we have to believe that God also works with the leadership, convicting them to follow their conscience, and not just follow orders. I personally can receive truth from many pastors even when they veer away to matters I don't agree with or emphasize things I find less important.

Character development is a difficult thing. But that's what we're called to.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here we go again, building another "church". What shall we keep what shall we throw out. Is not our Lords Church with Him as teacher and head enough.

The many churches that have been "built" in history were built by the Lord. Who are we to stand in the way of progress like this? Some indeed build false structures. My interest here is in building churches in the biblical way. And reform has been a huge part of Christian history. Nothing wrong with that!

 

[mjrhealth]

The many churches that have been "built" in history were built by the Lord. Who are we to stand in the way of progress like this? Some indeed build false structures. My interest here is in building churches in the biblical way. And reform has been a huge part of Christian history. Nothing wrong with that!

The biblical way, and how was that, men in charge. and look and see what you get. another religion no more no less.