How should the church service be structured

[Hidden In Him]

This passage is not saying that every who wants to speak should. It is defining the criteria by which they should. Not all things edify.

Well, it's been my experience that when you are dealing with people led and governed by the Spirit, you don't have a lot of them wanting to speak when they shouldn't. They are led by the Spirit, which means they desire to speak only as they are led to. Now you can have immature congregations, yes, and unfortunately that is often the case today. But I'm referring to the end-time church, which will be walking far more in the way things were intended to be; the way scripture commands them to be.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The biblical way, and how was that, men in charge. and look and see what you get. another religion no more no less.

Actually, if I understand him right, I think what he is advocating is men not being in charge, MjrHealth.

 

[mjrhealth]

Actually, if I understand him right, I think what he is advocating is men not being in charge, MjrHealth.

I have read so many stories of pastors realizing what is is they built, walking away, trying a new thing, but in the end it always ends up "church". Christ Has a church, us, He doesnt need buildings, men do, love building their towers to heaven.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have read so many stories of pastors realizing what is is they built, walking away, trying a new thing, but in the end it always ends up "church". Christ Has a church, us, He doesnt need buildings, men do, love building their towers to heaven.

Then we are in agreement.

 

[mjrhealth]

Not if we are talking about a church built with mens hands, a building a church with a title.. This bit

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

If we are In Christ we are in His Church.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not if we are talking about a church built with mens hands, a building a church with a title.. This bit

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

If we are In Christ we are in His Church.

If you've been listening to me then you know what I believe. If you are only ever listening to yourself, that would explain why you don't know if we're in agreement or not, LoL.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I gotta say, I love these verses. I love the ORDER of them because I have lived the dis-orderly interpretation of these, and other verses...and what that lead me to was chaos and confusion.
I wonder...how would one know when to keep silent? How would they know there was not interpreter in the gathering?

Anyone who attends the same gathering/church would know who has the office of interpreter by reason of use. And in 1 Corinthians 12:30 just as an apostle has an office, so does someone who is gifted in receiving messages in tongues, and so is the interpreter. The gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 are for the Church and are corporate gifts for the profit of all. But in Mark 16:16-18 we see speaking in tongues, but not interpretation. These gifts are for us individually, for use outside the congregation.

 

[Nancy]

Anyone who attends the same gathering/church would know who has the office of interpreter by reason of use. And in 1 Corinthians 12:30 just as an apostle has an office, so does someone who is gifted in receiving messages in tongues, and so is the interpreter. The gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 are for the Church and are corporate gifts for the profit of all. But in Mark 16:16-18 we see speaking in tongues, but not interpretation. These gifts are for us individually, for use outside the congregation.

Yes, I have heard of both uses. Thought I had a handle on the tongues for the edification of the Church but, I sure do not understand the individual tongue thing...I do know what others say about it. One of my brothers calls it his private prayer language but...even though an interpreter is not needed...how can he even know what he is saying to God? Ahh! I am tired and must shut down here...ttyt!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, I have heard of both uses. Thought I had a handle on the tongues for the edification of the Church but, I sure do not understand the individual tongue thing...I do know what others say about it. One of my brothers calls it his private prayer language but...even though an interpreter is not needed...how can he even know what he is saying to God? Ahh! I am tired and must shut down here...ttyt!

It is a matter of obedience. If you feel lead to pray for someone else, you can't know what God's perfect will is for them, so you pray in tongues. You don't have to know what God's will is for them, it is none of our business, but it is effective.

 

[mjrhealth]

If you've been listening to me then you know what I believe. If you are only ever listening to yourself, that would explain why you don't know if we're in agreement or not, LoL.

I duuno havnt read all your posts. As my friend asked me, we need to agree with one another, and I said no, we need to both agree with Christ. than when we do that we will all be in agreement.

 

[marksman]

Marksman and I have been looking into the value (or not) of the structure of the typical church service, in which a central leader delivers a sermon. I'm hesitant to dismiss the pastor, the sermon, and most of the churches in America and across the world. But I do take seriously the point marksman raised, that sermons are often weak. And I do think there could be important changes made in the structure of the service, to make ministry more efficient.

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Or, if you have an experience that may contribute to understanding the good or bad in this, please speak up!

I've had a long and varied experience in church, but of course, I'm limited by my own upbringing and experience. My own experience with the traditional sermon has not been that good on many occasion. But I don't wish to place the blame on pastors, who have simply been raised up and taught by a system that placed too much weight on them as an individual. See Exodus 18:25.

As I said elsewhere, as the main paid minister in a church, the pastor is expected to do the business of the church as well as provide the ministry of the word. This kind of administration is more than what I see the Bible as specifying. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives a diversity of gifts as He wishes.

So let me know what you think?

If I am truly allowed to say what I think, I prefer not to as my source of authority is what does the bible say and what does God think. Having studied this topic for many years and dialogued with denominational leaders and been a part of a church for 10 years that did not ignore what the bible says, I have a very good picture of what works.

To put it simply and bluntly, the leadership of the NTC was in the hands of a plurality of Elders, not a pastor. The Elders were male always.

The Deacons were the people that looked after the practical needs of the church and could be male or female.

The older women of the church were instructed to teach the younger women and the children. They were not given the role of teacher to the church at large.

There are no positions in God's church, only ministries. The five main ones are that of apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher, and shepherd. If God has not anointed you with one of these ministries then you haven't got it. Man's anointing means nothing.

In all probability, the reason why your church is not growing is because you ignore four of the five main ministries.

We are all able ministers of the New Covenant so that means everyone has a role spreading the message of the Cross. If you have the five ministries operating they can slot you in where you have an anointing for.

As we are all Ambassadors for Christ, we are all called to minister the Kingdom of God.

Too many churches are just social clubs with a religious bent to them.

The church that I am talking about allowed anyone to minister if they felt the Holy Spirit was leading them to do or say something. There was no platform, no programme, no preacher, and no pulpit. The longest meeting that I attended was six hours. Whilst the Holy Spirit was working we kept going.

When the Holy Spirit is in charge, anything can happen.

 

[Taken]

So let me know what you think?

First:
I believe all Church domination's have a type of coalition Central to their specific domination.
Meaning regardless of where a particular domination is located, they all are geared toward preaching on the same topic (as well Sunday school).

I get the "intent"...
And I understand, the Preacher is speaking to a congregation, many of whom are wanting to Hear "Solutions" to their own "specific" (and varied) issues.

Then there is also the Preachers themselves...
Skilled speakers, monotoned, flamboyant, yelling, over-the-top, focused more on ceremony, feel good, etc. (congregates are impressed or turned off by Preachers delivery styles).

Turning to our Example: JESUS
* A Time and Place Announced...
(Churches do that)
* Who will be Speaking...
(Churches do that)
* Invitation All are welcome to come and Hear..
(SOME Churches do that)

At Jesus' gatherings
* Alter ...NONE
* Special Clothes...NONE
* Padded pews/benches...NONE
* Four Walls...NONE
* Decorations ...NONE
* Stained glass, Statues, Paintings, Symbols, Entertainment, Earbuds, Radios, Phones, Business Cards, Reading of Sick and Dead People, Collecting of Money, Joking, Boasting;
NONE

Well WHAT was Jesus' "STYLE" ?
EXAMPLES!

Jesus IS the TRUTH, thus ALWAYS Spoke the TRUTH...

Jesus Spoke with EXAMPLES "TO People" using EXAMPLES "other People" (sometimes identified By Name, sometimes, Not)

The Bible calls this Style of Speaking "Parables".

Men have Defined "Parables" as:
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

Men have explained their Understanding to mean: a MADE-UP (UN-TRUE) story, to make A TRUE POINT...
(Which...IF that ^ were True...it would MAKE Jesus A LIAR, if HE was saying ANYTHING, That was NOT True).

Allegory- (a favorite word to describe Jesus' teaching Style of using Parables...means;)
- a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

Which takes the Focus to "the "hidden meaning"...but still leaves the "story" as "MADE-UP".

Jesus' EXAMPLES...regardless of being Called PARABLES...Are EVERY WORD "TRUTH", as He is The "TRUTH"...and EXAMPLE for Every man, regardless IF a man carries the Title of a Cleric.

Mark 4:
[2] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine...
them ... the Invited Gathered.

Mark 4:
[34] But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (followers).

A Parable in Scripture, out Of Jesus' Mouth, is A TRUE "story Example", to People, of a "comparison" about People...that a Person Hearing About another Person, can Know the Expected Outcome, if THEY compare to the Example.

Thus BY Jesus' Teaching method of His Doctrine...some nearly 40 Parables...
In all aspects of an individual's Life, a listener, can LEARN the Expected OUTCOME of Any Choice they are comptlating to do, "Before" they Do it.

OP ---> how should a church service be structured?

IMO- according to Jesus' Example.
Truth and Examples and Expected Outcome for individuals choices.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Nancy]

It is a matter of obedience. If you feel lead to pray for someone else, you can't know God's perfect will is for them, so you pray in tongues. You don't have to know what God's will is for them, it is none of our business, but it is effective.

Sure do wish I had that gift.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sure do wish I had that gift.

What other gifts mentioned do you have? You can PM me if you want.

 

[marks]

Well, it's been my experience that when you are dealing with people led and governed by the Spirit, you don't have a lot of them wanting to speak when they shouldn't. They are led by the Spirit, which means they desire to speak only as they are led to. Now you can have immature congregations, yes, and unfortunately that is often the case today. But I'm referring to the end-time church, which will be walking far more in the way things were intended to be; the way scripture commands them to be.

I think these words apply to all the church just the same, and for just the same reason.

Actually, the Bible prophesies the increase of false prophets, which I don't think we can deny is happening. Also many who claim God but deny His power. I think that includes His power in their lives, as Paul just finished describing the people in the last days of the church, and it's not pretty.

I know that in churches I've attended some have claimed to prophesy who I do not believe were prophesing. I've seen the same sort of grandstanding dominate prayer meetings. It's sad, and we need to be clear on what the Bible truly says so that we can be sure we are on the correct path.

Much love!

 

[marks]

by reason of use

Just so!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think these words apply to all the church just the same, and for just the same reason.

Actually, the Bible prophesies the increase of false prophets, which I don't think we can deny is happening. Also many who claim God but deny His power. I think that includes His power in their lives, as Paul just finished describing the people in the last days of the church, and it's not pretty.

I know that in churches I've attended some have claimed to prophesy who I do not believe were prophesing. I've seen the same sort of grandstanding dominate prayer meetings. It's sad, and we need to be clear on what the Bible truly says so that we can be sure we are on the correct path.

Much love!

I think there's going to continue to be a lot of "utterance" not from the Spirit of God until the church finally returns to serious prayer and fasting. One cannot utter what the Spirit is saying if one is not truly filled with the Spirit as one ought to be.

I know you have a different view on what it means to be "filled with the Spirit," but that is mine.

 

[Agios]

If I am truly allowed to say what I think, I prefer not to as my source of authority is what does the bible say and what does God think. Having studied this topic for many years and dialogued with denominational leaders and been a part of a church for 10 years that did not ignore what the bible says, I have a very good picture of what works.

To put it simply and bluntly, the leadership of the NTC was in the hands of a plurality of Elders, not a pastor. The Elders were male always.

The Deacons were the people that looked after the practical needs of the church and could be male or female.

The older women of the church were instructed to teach the younger women and the children. They were not given the role of teacher to the church at large.

There are no positions in God's church, only ministries. The five main ones are that of apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher, and shepherd. If God has not anointed you with one of these ministries then you haven't got it. Man's anointing means nothing.

In all probability, the reason why your church is not growing is because you ignore four of the five main ministries.

We are all able ministers of the New Covenant so that means everyone has a role spreading the message of the Cross. If you have the five ministries operating they can slot you in where you have an anointing for.

As we are all Ambassadors for Christ, we are all called to minister the Kingdom of God.

Too many churches are just social clubs with a religious bent to them.

The church that I am talking about allowed anyone to minister if they felt the Holy Spirit was leading them to do or say something. There was no platform, no programme, no preacher, and no pulpit. The longest meeting that I attended was six hours. Whilst the Holy Spirit was working we kept going.

When the Holy Spirit is in charge, anything can happen.

Not only the above, but churches have become irrelevant (sadly so) to the millennial and subsequent generations, these make up a whole bunch of people, considering also the older generation is passing away and no one is filling those spots. This could be an entirely new subject and is worthy of another thread to discuss the why.

I do believe part of the reason it has become such is the way Sunday mornings are structured, you go, you sit, no discussions, no asking questions and why Sundays? We are the church, we really don't need a day do we, what about incorporating it all into the week? Idk

 

[CharismaticLady]

One cannot utter what the Spirit is saying if one is not truly filled with the Spirit as one ought to be.

One reason why many are not filled with the Spirit is because they have never truly repented. Acts 2:38 And many of those believe repentance is a "work." Satan has them twist scripture so they won't do prerequisites to being on the path of salvation.

 

[marks]

I know you have a different view on what it means to be "filled with the Spirit," but that is mine.

Personally, I've not seen that we have different ideas of what being filled with the Spirit is. I've thought we see that pretty much just the same, maybe I'm mistaken.

But I think that you see some kind of sacramental or devotional requirement to add to faith in order to move in the Spirit. I don't. All that is required has been done by Jesus, aside from our receiving Him, which is to join to Him by trusting Him. And having trusted Him we receive everything, in His time, in His way, but by faith and not because we're committed to some devotional practice.

So in that I think we differ.

But being filled with the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, we do all the things that God desires for us, as the Spirit makes His desires to be our desires, and then provides the means to fulfill those desires, whether it be "spend this day in a peaceful heart" or "raise the dead from a 100 year old grave", whatever God desires we will simply do, no muss, no fuss, no big drama, no, look at me I'm a prophet or whatever. Just quiet peaceable people minding their own business, but in the power of the Creator.

Much love!