How Should We Read the Church Fathers?

[Enoch111]

Even with access to the written scripture cam we can really know anything about God without the Holy Spirit?

This is true. It is God the Holy Spirit who opens the eyes of human beings to spiritual realities and spiritual truth. He is also the one who convicts and convinces sinners when they hear or read the Gospel. No one can truly understand what is revealed in the Bible unless the Holy Spirit shows him or her what is revealed.

 

[amadeus]

@Nondenom40

amadeus said: ↑
To correctly rebuke the false teaching of anyone, a person must know absolutely that the teaching is in error. Only God and anyone to whom He has revealed it knows that. Probably many true followers of Christ have been martyred because someone was sure in his own mind that another was in error. Believe what you will, but insisting you are right and the other guy is wrong, on any point where God has not confirmed it to you personally will often put you where you don't want to be:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Nondenom40 said:
The bible is full of verses regarding defending the faith, exposing false doctrine and correcting those in error;
2 Tim 3:16
Jude 3
Eph 5:11....for starters. It is absolutely the job of the believer to defend the faith. And no offense but i think the verses you cited are out of context. I love the verse in Jeremiah which is speaking of our personal walk with God, not whether to correct someone or not.

Your verses are good and defending what you believe is a good thing which God expects, but there is a great difference between defense and offense.

When someone attacks you, to defend is a natural thing, however, to take the offense and attack/ rebuke someone else is certainly a very different thing. I cited the verses from Solomon and Jeremiah to allow you to consider your ground. According to Solomon everyone believes he is right, and anyone with a little experience in the things of God and also in the world of men, men do think this way. Each one thinks he is right and the other guy is wrong. That is the way of the flesh, even the flesh of believers.

So then Jeremiah tells us what God thinks of the situation. When we are walking alone, that is without God, we are walking blindly, in need of a Director. Men have been blind in the things of God since they were put outside of the Garden of Eden. Those who have been able to actually see as God sees received direction from God. The psalmist prayed for that:

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:5

So then again attacking or rebuking may be supported by the scriptures but I should be careful about doing it simply I think that I am right. "Do not even the publicans the same?" Maybe a bit more consideration for God's view on it would be good?

Because you have met the Master, Jesus, do you presume that you know all the right answers all of the time? Perhaps the one you are attacking/rebuking believes the same thing about himself. Discussion would be good, but if that won't work out maybe just backing up and talking to the Lord about it before proceeding with your rebuke.

Amadeus said:

Not hearing God and following Him always is a common source of error among believers. Thus we have how many different groups/churches/denominations often based on even the same Bible versions?

Nondenom40 said:
Apples and oranges. Paul told Timothy to 'study...' to accurately handle Gods word. Believers not hearing God are believers not in His will. And not all denoms are that far apart doctrinally and other churches are planted by a parent church. So while there are some denoms that are out there in terms of the truth many are not and can be considered brothers and sisters in Christ. We all have a judgement before God at the bema seat so i leave many 'in house' things to God. I don't loose any sleep wondering why there are so many denominations when there is so much work yet to be done for the kingdom.

Paul told Timothy to study for God's approval, NOT in order to learn. He ma well learn if in those studies he is led by the Spirit, but without the Holy Spirit again it is Solomon who describes the result:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Believers not in God's will are believers quenching the Spirit. The Apostle Paul warned us not to do that [I Thes 5:19] because he understood the need to always be walking in the Spirit walking with God.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Gal 5:16-17

You speak as if a person in the right denomination following them and their doctrines is always going to be OK with God. I say that to be OK with God one must rather walk in His Spirit to the end of the road. Be led by the Spirit and then immersed in the Spirit! Every denomination I have encountered over my years has regularly quenched the Spirit in their services by teaching people to quench the Spirit. If your church group has a scheduled program and a established order of service not written by the Holy Spirit, where is the Holy Spirit leading? Holy Spirit leadership only allowed within the program set by men? Hmmm?

There are a lot of dead people sitting in pews on a regular basis. Where is the Life? In the Spirit!

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

 

[Stan B]

This is true. It is God the Holy Spirit who opens the eyes of human beings to spiritual realities and spiritual truth. He is also the one who convicts and convinces sinners when they hear or read the Gospel. No one can truly understand what is revealed in the Bible unless the Holy Spirit shows him or her what is revealed.

And the Early Church Fathers did not have the same guidance?

 

[Enoch111]

And the Early Church Fathers did not have the same guidance?

Only God can answer that question. But when anyone puts out false teaching contrary to Scripture, they are not from the Holy Spirit. In all fairness, as I already stated, there are many good things written by the ECF. But there are also many errors which have continued to be promoted.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Only God can answer that question. But when anyone puts out false teaching contrary to Scripture, they are not from the Holy Spirit. In all fairness, as I already stated, there are many good things written by the ECF. But there are also many errors which have continued to be promoted.

That is also true of 'late' church fathers. It is best to stop listening to the errors of man, and only to the Holy Spirit who is the only one who will lead us into all truth. When it comes to Scripture, be a Berean, and read everything in CONTEXT.

 

[Stan B]

Only God can answer that question. But when anyone puts out false teaching contrary to Scripture, they are not from the Holy Spirit. In all fairness, as I already stated, there are many good things written by the ECF. But there are also many errors which have continued to be promoted.

Most of them were rather solid until 'St' Augustine came along with the philosophy of "original sin", further promoted by St. Jerome who introduced the pagan dogma of sprinkling babies with magic water (baptism?), and that if a baby died before being sprinkled, he could never enter into Heaven. I recently heard of an RC priest in South America, who would go to out to the parking lot after church and sprinkle the cars for good luck! Duh.

Some of the very Early Church fathers were rather shallow until Tertullian, a prominent Roman lawyer who had the resources to study Scripture in detail. It was an age when no one had their own copy of the Holy Scriptures like we do today, except for bishops and other church leaders who had access to these documents. So considering their resources compared to ours, I don't hold them to the same standard of those of us today, who all have our own a copy of the Bible.

 

[bbyrd009]

How Should We Read the Church Fathers?

As elders of the Church.

i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock.

And yet, if you read the fathers, you will find the orthodox and catholic Faith.

iow, perfect proof of Paul's prophecy!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

you too! are welcome to go back to the right and correct side of your boundary stone, and stop this usurping behavior

we are not lost, and we do not need your blasphemous interpretations of Scripture--not that you ever Quote It anyway right--and we particularly do not need your quotations of Paul's wolves, wadr bro.

Do you have an example?

how about every bit of it, from start to finish? You have a trash can, right? Put it there bro

 

[bbyrd009]

Peace!

yes, cry peace, but there will not be that, blasphemer, sorry

 

[Enoch111]

Some of the very Early Church fathers were rather shallow until Tertullian, a prominent Roman lawyer who had the resources to study Scripture in detail.

Since you mention Tertullian, he wrote a treatise on baptism, and promoted the idea of baptismal regeneration. But that had already begun with Justin. I will quote some of his statements:

HAPPY is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

What then? Is it not wonderful, too, that death should be washed away by bathing?

All waters, therefore, in virtue of the pristine privilege of their origin, do, after invocation of God, attain the sacramental power of sanctification.

 

[Stan B]

Since you mention Tertullian, he wrote a treatise on baptism, and promoted the idea of baptismal regeneration. But that had already begun with Justin. I will quote some of his statements:

HAPPY is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

What then? Is it not wonderful, too, that death should be washed away by bathing?

All waters, therefore, in virtue of the pristine privilege of their origin, do, after invocation of God, attain the sacramental power of sanctification.

He was a rather prolific writer, and it has been almost 50 years since I read his books, so my recollection of everything he said has perhaps faded over the years, but I recall that he was right on the mark in what he said. I don't recall the texts you quote, but he was close to the Essene era where baptism was a source of cleansing at least 100 years or more before Christ. I am not at all familiar with Essene theology.

 

[reformed1689]

Paul told Timothy to study for God's approval, NOT in order to learn.

You might want to study up on what that word means.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You might want to study up on what that word means.

Oh David, it doesn't seem you understood what A was saying about study without the SPIRIT.

2 Timothy 3:7 "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

 

[reformed1689]

Oh David, it doesn't seem you understood what A was saying about study without the SPIRIT.

2 Timothy 3:7 "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Studying WITH the spirit doesn't mean you ignore the actual words and their actual meanings.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Studying WITH the spirit doesn't mean you ignore the actual words and their actual meanings.

Is that what he meant?

 

[reformed1689]

Is that what he meant?

My point is not whether or not that is what he meant, my point is that is what he did by simply going with the modern English understanding of the word approved and making that to seek God's approval. That is not what that verse is saying.

 

[CharismaticLady]

My point is not whether or not that is what he meant, my point is that is what he did by simply going with the modern English understanding of the word approved and making that to seek God's approval. That is not what that verse is saying.

Is the problem with 'study' or 'present yourself to God'? What do you think the word 'approved' here means in 2 Timothy 2:15?

I think it means to be approved, that you rightly divide the word of truth, and don't twist the Author's meaning leading others astray. So it has to do with correctly understanding God's Word, which can only be done through the Holy Spirit's revelation.

 

[reformed1689]

I think it means to be approved, that you rightly divide the word of truth, and don't twist the Author's meaning leading others astray. So it has to do with correctly understanding God's Word, which can only be done through the Holy Spirit's revelation.

Yes, approved, genuine, the real deal, authentic.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, approved, genuine, the real deal, authentic.

This is even more important for 'teachers' as we come under a stricter judgment. So it is also important in our 'study' to understand where the author/apostle is coming from. I see that in understanding/rightly dividing 1 John 1. Every verse is TO Christians, but now every verse is ABOUT Christians. Those who learn how Hebrew eastern authors write do not make the same mistakes as we westerners do in reading what they write.

 

[Philip James]

But there are also many errors which have continued

Hello. Enoch,

Do you have an example of this?

Going back to my post quoting Justin describing the divine liturgy, here is an even older document peaking of it..

The Didache has no author ascribed to it, but is considered part of the patrimony of the fathers.

Written while some of the apostles were still alive, about the sacrifice of the Eucharist it says:

14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled;
14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord;
14:4 {In every place and at every time offer Me a pure sacrifice;
14:5 for I am a great king, saith the Lord and My name is wonderful among the nations.}

As we see here, from the very beginning of the Church, the offering of the Eucharist was recognized as the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11

Peace be with you!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello. Enoch,

Do you have an example of this?

Going back to my post quoting Justin describing the divine liturgy, here is an even older document peaking of it..

The Didache has no author ascribed to it, but is considered part of the patrimony of the fathers.

Written while some of the apostles were still alive, about the sacrifice of the Eucharist it says:

14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled;
14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord;
14:4 {In every place and at every time offer Me a pure sacrifice;
14:5 for I am a great king, saith the Lord and My name is wonderful among the nations.}

As we see here, from the very beginning of the Church, the offering of the Eucharist was recognized as the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11

Peace be with you!

This shows what the "unworthy manner" actually was about. It was about partaking with known sin in your life, and not about being a glutton.