How Should We Read the Church Fathers?

[Enoch111]

ENOCH: But there are also many errors which have continued
PHILIP JAMES: Hello. Enoch, Do you have an example of this?

Sure. All the false teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox churches originated with the ECF -- baptismal regeneration, transubstantiation, purgatory, sacramentalism, amillennialism, a celibate priesthood, priestly mediation, monasticism, rosary beads, the veneration of Mary, the papacy, images and ikons of the saints and Mary, etc. While they were defending the Holy Trinity and the Deity of Christ, they were also creating man-made doctrines. And this is also true of the Calvinists.

Obviously you are going to claim that all this is not false teaching, but the Bible says otherwise. So Catholics have to make up their minds. What is more authoritative, the Holy Bible or so-called *Holy Tradition* which the ECF created?

 

[amadeus]

Studying WITH the spirit doesn't mean you ignore the actual words and their actual meanings.

Not the words my friend, but the whole sentence:

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15 [KJV]

"Let it be your care to get the approval of God, as a workman who has no cause for shame, giving the true word in the right way." II Tim 2:15 [Basic English]

"be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;" II Tim 2:15 [Young's]

It does not say to study to learn.
It says to do it to get God's approval.

The "rightly dividing" can never come through study without the Holy Spirit. The rightly dividing comes as per this verse:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Without the Holy Ghost, then the verse penned by Solomon [Ecc 12:12] applies. Doing it that way the Truth will never be in the person... even though the person may have memorized the whole Bible.

 

[reformed1689]

Not the words my friend, but the whole sentence:

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15 [KJV]

"Let it be your care to get the approval of God, as a workman who has no cause for shame, giving the true word in the right way." II Tim 2:15 [Basic English]

"be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;" II Tim 2:15 [Young's]

It does not say to study to learn.
It says to do it to get God's approval.

The "rightly dividing" can never come through study without the Holy Spirit. The rightly dividing comes as per this verse:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Without the Holy Ghost, then the verse penned by Solomon [Ecc 12:12] applies. Doing it that way the Truth will never be in the person... even though the person may have memorized the whole Bible.

Did you even look up the Greek?

 

[amadeus]

Did you even look up the Greek?

I used a lexicon if that is what you mean as I am not a student of Koine Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. I have to trust God to provide whatever I need when I need it... including at times a lexicon. If you are a student of the original languages, I am glad for you... What I believe on this however stands until God reveals something different to me.

 

[reformed1689]

I used a lexicon if that is what you mean as I am not a student of Koine Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. I have to trust God to provide whatever I need when I need it... including at times a lexicon. If you are a student of the original languages, I am glad for you... What I believe on this however stands until God reveals something different to me.

Goodness, so you can give whatever interpretation you want despite the fact it doesn't agree with the language as long as you claim that is what God revealed to you? That's pretty scary.

 

[Philip James]

Obviously you are going to claim that all this is not false teaching, but the Bible says otherwise. So Catholics have to make up their minds. What is more authoritative, the Holy Bible or so-called *Holy Tradition* which the ECF created

One cannot claim these men as their fathers in the faith and heretics at the same time.
Your position is untenable. At least our friend @bbyrd009 is honest in his positon on the ECF's. To reject the catholic and orthodox faith is to reject them as your fathers.

Here's some more from Ignatius of Antioch circa 100 AD:

Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist
(for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and
one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar,
as there is one bishop, together with the presbtery
and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever
ye do, ye may do it after God


Peace be with you!

 

[bbyrd009]

One cannot claim these men as their fathers in the faith and heretics at the same time.
Your position is untenable. At least our friend @bbyrd009 is honest in his positon on the ECF's. To reject the catholic and orthodox faith is to reject them as your fathers.

Here's some more from Ignatius of Antioch circa 100 AD:

Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist
(for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and
one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar,
as there is one bishop, together with the presbtery
and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever
ye do, ye may do it after God


Peace be with you!

now, @aspen , it should be clear from this why pj will be bound, i hope? But since Catholics do not refer to or revere Scripture, i will leave a little help on my way out the door, ok;
Matthew 11:12 Lexicon: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.
Luke 16:16 Lexicon: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Bible Search: strong man

now if you will bam go and ask your father what these mean, and what is going to happen, and wonder anew when what he tells you is not what happens, ok. You are having fun satisfying yourself playing at religion, but this stuff is real bro, and i have now done all i can. Keep playing, and see what happens

 

[bbyrd009]

One cannot claim these men as their fathers in the faith and heretics at the same time.
Your position is untenable. At least our friend @bbyrd009 is honest in his positon on the ECF's. To reject the catholic and orthodox faith is to reject them as your fathers.

Here's some more from Ignatius of Antioch circa 100 AD:

Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist
(for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and
one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar,
as there is one bishop, together with the presbtery
and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever
ye do, ye may do it after God


Peace be with you!

So Catholics have to make up their minds.

and so obv, m james has made his up. Let it be on his head now

and pls dont imagine that you, pj, will be bound the same way BoL is bound, ok? I have a problem with you, and i brought it to you first, then i brought it to our fellows; what comes next? So now we will take this to your forum (house), and play by your rules, bro; women and children first

 

[Philip James]

now, @aspen , it should be clear from this why pj will be bound, i hope?

And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me.

But since Catholics do not refer to or revere Scripture, i will leave a little help on my way out the door, ok;
Matthew 11:12 Lexicon: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.
Luke 16:16 Lexicon: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Bible Search: strong man

now if you will bam go and ask your father what these mean, and what is going to happen, and wonder anew when what he tells you is not what happens, ok. You are having fun satisfying yourself playing at religion, but this stuff is real bro, and i have now done all i can. Keep playing, and see what happens

"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber.

But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.

The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

 

[Davy]

One of the great challenges as a Protestant is to know and understand how we came to be. The Reformation is our roots in history, but the Bible is our root in theology. Simply put, to be Protestant means you leave the man-made teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and look towards Scripture as your authority for faith and practice.

Why do I make this point when talking about the Early Church Fathers (ECF)? It is simple. Catholics tend to put an inordinate amount of weight and authority in the ECF. They do this to the point of elevating their writings to the level of Scripture. However, they will tell you that they do not do this. Yet, when shown their interpretation is incorrect Biblically, they will say, “But Origen said…” or “But Iraneus argued….” or “But Clement states…” and so on. When you simply say they are wrong, and point out the error, they will say that are we to know better than those that sat under the Apostles?

This, of course, is a logical fallacy. It is an appeal to authority. However, there is no authority there.

We do not hold that the ECF were infallible. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that the ECF, or the church today, including the Pope, are infallible in any way (though the Catholics will try to argue that there is). So how are we to use the ECF?

The answer to this is not difficult. We should use the ECF as we use any other commentary. It is useful for study and instruction but must always be tested against the Scriptures. The Scriptures and Scriptures alone have the final say in all matters of faith and practice. The ECF did get things wrong, and often, they even contradicted each other. Scripture, on the other hand, has no contradictions. It is the perfect and holy words of God.

So while we should read the Fathers, we should not elevate their work to the level of Scripture.

How Should We Read the Early Church Fathers?

No matter, those who don't have The Holy Spirit guiding them in study of God's Word won't 'get it', either with or without reading the "ECF".

Matt 13:10-11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"
11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
KJV

 

[bbyrd009]

And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me

zing!
Scripture as sledgehammer, lol
but i guess i do it too
iron sharepns iron huh bro

"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber.

But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.

The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

nice, hey i wonder your iyo on the shepherd thing i posted on my page earlier? Cant figure out if shepherds were pariahs or not 1bc; note the last link, which refutes

 

[Philip James]

zing!
Scripture as sledgehammer, lol
but i guess i do it too
iron sharepns iron huh bro

nice, hey i wonder your iyo on the shepherd thing i posted on my page earlier? Cant figure out if shepherds were pariahs or not 1bc; note the last link, which refutes

I think the last one is prob correct for how the 'common' people would have viewed shephards... I wouldnt be surprised at all if this :
"One passage describes them as “incompetent”; another says no one should ever feel obligated to rescue a shepherd who has fallen into a pit."

Was the attitude of the 'educated' pharisees and saducees .

Peace!

 

[bbyrd009]

I think the last one is prob correct for how the 'common' people would have viewed shephards... I wouldnt be surprised at all if this :
"One passage describes them as “incompetent”; another says no one should ever feel obligated to rescue a shepherd who has fallen into a pit."

Was the attitude of the 'educated' pharisees and saducees .

Peace!

i guess? Note David was not even regarded as a possibility, yeh. So im still onna fence here

 

[amadeus]

Goodness, so you can give whatever interpretation you want despite the fact it doesn't agree with the language as long as you claim that is what God revealed to you? That's pretty scary.

Scary? What is scary about leaning on God? Not a thing!
You certainly read a lot more into what I said than what was there!

Leaning on yourself or other people is the scariest course to take. When a person clings to the words and writings of others rather than surrendering daily to God Himself... that is when he should be concerned.

I don't give or compose whatever interpretation I want. I seek His Kingdom and His righteousness and then He adds to me according to His will for me. Like most [all?] people, I have sometimes quenched the Holy Spirit, but always I have returned my focus onto Him and trusted in Him rather than men and their writings to determine my course. Sometimes God uses men to help us, but ultimately we need to seek Him first. Anyone else we look to... will fail us in our times of need. God never fails us!

"How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" John 5:44

"I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust." Psalm 91:2