How Should We Read the Church Fathers?

[Episkopos]

I disagree. False doctrine is the problem. You name it, they teach it. Especially denominations. They cannot reform, fearing a mass exodus of folks realizing they had been duped.

So you see a vitality and life in the church?...but stemming from false doctrine? Just what are you disagreeing with?

 

[amadeus]

Which has nothing to do with the fact that I said we are to rebuke false teachers. That is COMMANDED in Scripture. It IS following the Lord to rebuke false teaching (such as LDS).

To correctly rebuke the false teaching of anyone, a person must know absolutely that the teaching is in error. Only God and anyone to whom He has revealed it knows that. Probably many true followers of Christ have been martyred because someone was sure in his own mind that another was in error. Believe what you will, but insisting you are right and the other guy is wrong, on any point where God has not confirmed it to you personally will often put you where you don't want to be:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Not hearing God and following Him always is a common source of error among believers. Thus we have how many different groups/churches/denominations often based on even the same Bible versions?

 

[amadeus]

I’ve never read anything of ECF, and from reading all the confusion of the posts in this thread...... I’m glad.

A lot of the talk here has very little directly to do with the ECF.

 

[Enoch111]

I’ve never read anything of ECF, and from reading all the confusion of the posts in this thread...... I’m glad.

Their writings are quite extensive, but then again you have to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[amadeus]

To the Bible lovers, they can line up with the Bible to change views and resolve differences.

The rest will never agree with the Bible and each other.

So we are in agreement that there is still a lot of confusion among people, believers even. We do know that God is not the author of that.

 

[Truther]

So you see a vitality and life in the church?...but stemming from false doctrine? Just what are you disagreeing with?

Multiple things. skipping Acts, tithing, fake Greek redefinitions, etc. you name it

 

[Truther]

So we are in agreement that there is still a lot of confusion among people, believers even. We do know that God is not the author of that.

Indeed. God wants us to get back to the Bible and forsake commentary. The truth will make us free, not commentary

 

[Philip James]

And you will also find stark heresy in some writings and much that is against Scripture.

Do you have an example?

This, for instance, is clearly a description of the divine liturgy written about 150 AD by Justin Martyr:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

Peace!

 

[amadeus]

I read the NKJV, but I found the Living Bible to be a great help. It was so clear, and when I came to something that I had never heard, I would compare it with the NKJV and find it absolutely compatible, only clearer than the NKJV. I know when I stopped listening to man, and read only the Bible in context, my doctrine now is different than any denomination I know of. No wonder denominations fight each other, and all of them fight me. LOL

My method of reading is similar, but in my case I read the KJV and do most of my comparisons with my Spanish and German translations as I read those regularly as well. I won't say I never listen to men for I am here on this forum and reading what other post. But, I do, with God's help, sift through some of what they write. Sometimes He gives something new to me or a correction to something I already held.

I also believe things that nobody else to seems to believe. [I don't know everybody nor what they all believe so who knows for certain?] Once in a while I am led to share things here which few or none can accept. When people differ: Who is right? Me? That person? This person? That denomination? and so forth...

Well, we know that God is right and hopefully you and I and others here are moving toward Him in spite of any differences.

Read the NT through, and when you come to the next book, read it through in one sitting so you get the whole context. For instance, the first 8 chapters of Romans is all on the law, and introducing us to not being under the law, but the Spirit at the conclusion. The rest of Romans could be a book in itself.

Just in the past months I've changed my pattern for my daily Bible readings. On week days I still read several very short selections each morning as I have for many years, but on Saturdays and Sundays, I started with the long uninterrupted readings of chapters and books to hopefully better understand the context similar to your suggestion. It is helping me to see things I had missed before from the very same verses read out of context.

 

[amadeus]

Indeed. God wants us to get back to the Bible and forsake commentary. The truth will make us free, not commentary

Keep on keepin' on!

 

[reformed1689]

Only God and anyone to whom He has revealed it knows that.

So, can we not know, beyond shadow of a doubt, that Jesus is God based on Scripture?

 

[reformed1689]

Not hearing God and following Him always is a common source of error among believers. Thus we have how many different groups/churches/denominations often based on even the same Bible versions.

That's why we believe in primary vs. secondary doctrines. Primary doctrines must be agreed to 100%, secondary doctrines must have some charity.

 

[amadeus]

So, can we not know, beyond shadow of a doubt, that Jesus is God based on Scripture?

We can only know whatever we, know rather than believe, based God's revelation of it to us. A 'dyed in the wool' unbelieving atheist can have the whole Bible memorized and not know the answer to your question. The difference is the Holy Spirit! Being a Bible student, don't you already know that? Are you not also walking with God?

 

[amadeus]

That's why we believe in primary vs. secondary doctrines. Primary doctrines must be agreed to 100%, secondary doctrines must have some charity.

To me that is nonsense! Since when is the Truth determined by the majority? How many adult men out of 600,000 saved out of Egypt made it into the Promised Land? Only 2! That is a long ways from even 1%, but they were right and the others were wrong!

Jesus was willing to walk alone rather than compromise. When many of his followers left because of his words, He made it clear he would not compromise to keep them and even challenged his closest followers:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

We may not be where Jesus was as a man 2000 years ago, but we certainly will never get there heeding the voice of the democratic majority instead of His voice:

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

 

[CharismaticLady]

Just a caution on the LB, it is a paraphrase, not a translation. So basically it is nothing but a commentary.

Yes, I know, but I haven't found anywhere it has deviated from the truth of a translation, it has only made clearer passages that were hard to understand in the original. Like when I got to Romans 6, I had to stop and compare it to the NKJV and for the first time I understood a difficult passage that verified other areas of Scripture. It literally changed my life. Like Jesus said, "The truth shall make us free." I recommend it highly. Especially new Christians who might find the KJV, or even the NKJV hard to understand. And when I read the LB I recognize the witness of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So, can we not know, beyond shadow of a doubt, that Jesus is God based on Scripture?

I was in my mid 30's to 40's when as I was reading, I stopped and said, "Jesus is God!" I even wrote it in my Bible at the verse. It shocked me.

 

[Truther]

So, can we not know, beyond shadow of a doubt, that Jesus is God based on Scripture?

Yes, Thomas was the first to get that revelation.

 

[Willie T]

Yes, I know, but I haven't found anywhere it has deviated from the truth of a translation, it has only made clearer passages that were hard to understand in the original. Like when I got to Romans 6, I had to stop and compare it to the NKJV and for the first time I understood a difficult passage that verified other areas of Scripture. It literally changed my life. Like Jesus said, "The truth shall make us free." I recommend it highly. Especially new Christians who might find the KJV, or even the NKJV hard to understand. And when I read the LB I recognize the witness of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. I find it kind of humorous that every "translation" that does that translating literally, has to have numerous things "explained" to any modern English reader, or else they make no sense, at all. (Such as having to hate your whole family to be a disciple, and the "eye of a needle" thing, or even "being born again." and several others. Why do so many people resist a Bible that goes ahead and explains things, right there in its pages as you are reading, that every one of us had to go find someone and have them explain those passages to us years ago?

 

[reformed1689]

To me that is nonsense! Since when is the Truth determined by the majority? How many adult men out of 600,000 saved out of Egypt made it into the Promised Land? Only 2! That is a long ways from even 1%, but they were right and the others were wrong!

Jesus was willing to walk alone rather than compromise. When many of his followers left because of his words, He made it clear he would not compromise to keep them and even challenged his closest followers:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

We may not be where Jesus was as a man 2000 years ago, but we certainly will never get there heeding the voice of the democratic majority instead of His voice:

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

I think you totally missed what I was saying.

 

[reformed1689]

We can only know whatever we, know rather than believe, based God's revelation of it to us. A 'dyed in the wool' unbelieving atheist can have the whole Bible memorized and not know the answer to your question. The difference is the Holy Spirit! Being a Bible student, don't you already know that? Are you not also walking with God?

This is absurd. Even an Atheist can know Scripture teaches that Jesus is God. It's plainly there. That doesn't mean they believe it.