How to be an honest Christian thinker.

[Ronald David Bruno]

How to understand the Bible. Well, to be honest one must take in the whole counsel of God.

Yah, well the WHOLE counsel of God is from the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. And THE primary counselor is the Holy Spirit. Now if you don't think HE exists, you weren't baptized by the Holy Spirit or into His name, I doubt you will receive much discernment. You can read the Bible and gather history facts and a general superficial understand. But listen. you approach/formula that you offer is really weak and not how to approach reading the Bible ... looking for a plurality of extreme contradictions, realizing that our human perceptions are weak, that they understood the Bible better 2,000 years ago, etc. This is all wrong! Since dogs have better hearing, maybe they should teach you?
You approach the Bible seeking God in humility, in prayer and godly sorrow, knowing you are a sinner and asking Him to enlighten you, to understanding His word and He will show you. If you are His Elect, He will open your eyes to Christ and you will believe. He will give you the Holy Spirit, Whom will dwell in you. All scripture is spiritually discerned with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So that is crucial for understanding the Bible. Be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
"So why do we limit God and those whom He reveals Himself to? That is exactly what you are doing, by ignoring the Holy Spirit.
There is a word that describes someone who continually ignors the infamous elephant in the room. ???

 

[Karl Peters]

Yah, well the WHOLE counsel of God is from the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. And THE primary counselor is the Holy Spirit. Now if you don't think HE exists, you weren't baptized by the Holy Spirit or into His name, I doubt you will receive much discernment. You can read the Bible and gather history facts and a general superficial understand. But listen. you approach/formula that you offer is really weak and not how to approach reading the Bible ... looking for a plurality of extreme contradictions, realizing that our human perceptions are weak, that they understood the Bible better 2,000 years ago, etc. This is all wrong! Since dogs have better hearing, maybe they should teach you?
You approach the Bible seeking God in humility, in prayer and godly sorrow, knowing you are a sinner and asking Him to enlighten you, to understanding His word and He will show you. If you are His Elect, He will open your eyes to Christ and you will believe. He will give you the Holy Spirit, Whom will dwell in you. All scripture is spiritually discerned with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So that is crucial for understanding the Bible. Be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
"So why do we limit God and those whom He reveals Himself to? That is exactly what you are doing, by ignoring the Holy Spirit.
There is a word that describes someone who continually ignors the infamous elephant in the room. ???

According to the Bible, is the wonderful counselor the Holy Spirit of the Son of God?????

Is 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

We don't "approach the Bible seeking God in humility" we approach (Jesus Christ) the King of kings and Lord of lords in humility!!!

Is 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.

People keep making it about going to the Bible instead of going before the Lord!!

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

And the weird thing is that the Bible clearly explains all this!!! So do people keep writing things like "You approach the Bible seeking god in humility"???

We need to approach God in humility, but they tell themselves the Bible will explain all things to them, and that when the Bible clearly explains that Jesus Christ is Lord and He will explain things to them via His Holy Spirit who does not speak on His own initiative but only take the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ and gives them to you.

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

So the Spirit gives you life, but that life is the words the Jesus Christ speaks to you!!! So the Holy Spirit gives you the words which belong to Jesus Christ!! That small voice from the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ actually talking to you. The words are His (Jesus Christ's) words!!!

So the Wonderful Counselor is not the Holy Spirit but is Jesus Christ, the child born to us and given to us!!!!

So what spirit wants to glorify himself as God?? The Holy Spirit always glorifies the Son, which explains why the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own inititavie. And all this is explained in the Bible!! So read the Bible and talk our Lord God, Jesus Christ, about this. He will then send His Holy Spirit with His words!! So He will be, like it is written, a Wonderful Counselor, to you.

I pulled up to the post office one day, and suddenly the Lord told me (via His Holy Spirit) "Karl, they call Me Wonderful Counselor, but I am not a wonderful counselor to those that don't listen to Me."

So while I heard that in my spirit which got it from the Holy Spirit, the words were from my Lord Jesus Christ - that child who was given to us and who shall be called "Wonderful Counselor" by those who actually listen to Him.

So I say I heard from Jesus Christ, that child born to us, via the Holy Spirit, and you seem to be saying you don't hear form Jesus Christ but do hear from the Holy Spirit. I think that could be a problem for you, because there is something about how on that day Jesus Christ is going to tell people He never knew them. Paul knew Him:

Acts 9:5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

The writings of Paul make sense to me. Paul asks who the Lord is and he hears "I am Jesus"!

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you are saying the answer to that same question from the spirit you are hearing from is "I am the Holy Spirit." That doesn't seem like it matches up with what is actually in the Bible?

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus Christ is not "in the Bible" He will come into you if you let Him. The way you let Him in is to listen to Him! He is a person, the Son of God, the Christ - and His name is called "The Word of God". His sheep hear His voice, and anyone can start hearing from Him!

I wish someone had told me this 50 years ago when I first became a Christian. Thanks.

.

 

[Mink57]

Examples...

We are not to judge, as in, judge not lest you be judged.....yet we are to judge righteously. (righteous judgment)

We are to love our wives.......and.....unless we hate our wives we cannot be disciples.

The net as something that catches us into the kingdom....and the net of God that catches the wicked.

Leaven as sin...and leaven as kingdom truth that brings forth good things.

The many righteous...and none are righteous.

Jesus as God.....yet He has a God...the same as we do.

Life working death....and death working life.

The curse of the cross (cursed is he who hangs on a tree) ....the blessing and glory of the cross.

Fear not and perfect love casts out all fear....yet ....the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

There is no condemnation in Christ...yet Christian teachers will receive the greater condemnation.

These are just a few of many hundreds of such discrepancies...even seeming contradictions. These are necessary to show the difference between the flesh and the Spirit...and righteousness and holiness.

Years ago, I was wrestling with an atheist online. He said that the reason he was an atheist was because of the "many contradictions in the bible". I looked online, and found a site (run by an atheist) that listed over 700 'contradictions'. As I poured through those contradictions, I kept shaking my head, "No...no...and.........no." They weren't contradictions at all. In fact, MOST of them were simply verses taken out of context.

The bible (to me) is like a law book. For example, if one is researching secular law regarding Evictions, they wouldn't be able to go to ONE volume, with a table of contents...and go to ONE chapter that talks about EVERYTHING that has to do with Evictions. Chances are, they'd have numerous volumes in front of them, from different areas of the law.

The same with the bible. If one wants to read about "judging", one won't find ALL about it in a single volume, under the chapter heading of "Judging." It's spread out throughout the bible, just as Evictions are spread out throughout the law. And, in secular law, one has to read what's written before a particular law, and after, in order to get the FULL context. Same with the bible.

Secular law books also have annotations, footnotes and cross-references. So do a LOT of bibles these days.

The point is, that we can't simply read one verse and think, "I've GOT it!" We have to read EVERYTHING that's related to that one verse in order to "get it." Just for example, you wrote that (paraphrasing) we're not to judge, lest we be judged. And yet, another verse says that we are to judge "righteously." So, are we allowed to judge or not?

Yes, we are. But we have to be careful in our judgments. We make judgements daily. We judge the way people look...what they say...how they say it. And quite often, we make erroneous judgments, without knowing the WHOLE story.

So, to me, in this instance, it's o.k. to judge...as long as we know the whole story.

Then again, how OFTEN do we know the whole story?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We don't "approach the Bible seeking God in humility" we approach (Jesus Christ) the King of kings and Lord of lords in humility!!

The OP is about understanding the Bible.
Of course the way to God is to first pray to God, which is just talking to God as I said, in humility, but then will he answer you audibly with a teaching of 138k words? No, so we must seek God through His word - as He purposed. It is His message to us. Faith comes by the WORD. (Romas 10:17) Jesus of course is the Word, the exact expression and illumination of God . Before the printed Bible, many would just have to hear His words preached.

Is 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

And that is all true of Jesus. The Holy Spirit counsels and guides us no differently.

People keep making it about going to the Bible instead of going before the Lord!!

Well it is the way to knowing about Jesus.

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

He was speaking to the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews. They denied Him.

And the weird thing is that the Bible clearly explains all this!!! So do people keep writing things like "You approach the Bible seeking god in humility"???

Well when Jesus says come to Me as children, He means in humility. Prayer alone on an island with no Bible will have to do and God will guide you, but you won't get to know Him as well - don't you think? Without the word, people came up with false religions, worshiping animals, false gods. The Indians in America did not have the Bible prior to the Pilgrams and so who did pray to? The great Eagle in the Sky, the Wind, spirits of many kinds. God knew they were confused, so He sent men to share the Bible with them.

We need to approach God in humility, but they tell themselves the Bible will explain all things to them, and that when the Bible clearly explains that Jesus Christ is Lord and He will explain things to them via His Holy Spirit who does not speak on His own initiative but only take the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ and gives them to you.

The Bible is sufficient. It is a supernatural message system from God to mankind.

So the Wonderful Counselor is not the Holy Spirit but is Jesus Christ, the child born to us and given to us!!!

Jesus is called a wonderful counselor. He also said that He would pray that the Father would send "another Helper, the Counselor", Whom would live in you and be with you forever.

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you are saying the answer to that same question from the spirit you are hearing from is "I am the Holy Spirit." That doesn't seem like it matches up with what is actually in the Bible?

Maybe you are missing something: The Bible has many references to the Holy Spirit, more about Jesus, but nevertheless ...:
Here are a few passages:
"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8

"So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying, ‘Go to this people and say: Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive;' " Acts 28:25-26

" I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matt.3:11

"but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” Mark 3:29

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." John 15:26

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" John 16:7-8

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you." John 16:13-15

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph. 1:13

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Rom. 5:5

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Rom. 8:26-27

"Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me," Rom. 15:30

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Gal. 5:22-23

"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11

"for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

" Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind." Phi. 2:1-2

" And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit," 1 Thes. 1:6

So to sum it up: The Holy Spirit is God, Who lives in us, and teaches, guides counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, comforts us, loves us, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, fellowhsips with us, sancrifies us, justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us. I have left much out, but if you can think of anything else God does for us, add that to the list.

 

[Alfredthefifth]

How God works in a heart can be so bold to speak of if is bragging. "WHO LISTENS TO BRAGGERT?"
The way God works in a heart, my heart is so Suttle HOW CAN I FIND WORDS to describe it?

The way I live my life speaks volumes of my heart. While my tongue just muddies the waters.

My writing here has my personal journey tied up in being burnt by a false false teacher.

What I write about testing the word being taught. Not for my edification but to test the teacher. The teacher used good sounding words, are they true? I want to teach am I true?

The smallest untruth no matter how well intended can become a huge stumbling block for someone else. This is my study of Bible, context is not in all in all but is a fair scale of measure.
Then it is not what pastor says from the pulpit but what he says and does outside of the pulpit.
Here I have to ask is the head trying to be the foot. Or an ear trying to be an eye and a tongue? Is my heart aligned with the word when questioning these things? There is a lot of study a lot of context in the Bible that while protecting faith are not faith itself.
The most blessed event in my life comes out of going to the Bible to make an argument with a pastors sermon an argument of Christian love and not the braying of a donkey (in some forums saying a braying ass is frowned upon but that is the biblical form).

The biggest knock on Christianity is that, "YOU CHRISTIANS, take one verse and run people over with it!" No matter how wrong other Bible verses say you are! History shows how true this can be even though it is frequently taking a myopic view of a few and painting the whole with it.
From this I have asked myself the single verse I have posted in art, Do I really know it? From real study, studying not just it's word but what context it was said or written in , mostly I the verse is right, I am using it right. but.....
I do find a lot of truth in the non-Christian attitude of misused single verses.
Knowing it is easy, living is it not so easy. Knowing that the simplest misunderstanding of a word, a single word can be disaster to a person? That ought to scare everyone deeper into the word! Not for personal sanctification or personal glorification but to try and be a better teacher!

So yes the question always needs to be asked
Are you studying the Bible to be a pharisee ar a Rabbi? The study is identical the goal is totally different! The life lead may be the best answer!

Al

 

[Karl Peters]

Below is a bit to go through, but it is all the same a before, which is we need to seek Jesus Christ as the living Word of God and thus listen to Him!! The Holy Spirit is there to make that happen for us! Which as mentioned over and over and over to you is that the Holy Spirit does not speak to you on His own initiative, but as He hears He speaks!! He does that because He always glorifies the Son! So let us look at what has been posted.

The OP is about understanding the Bible.

Yes - understanding the Bible is done by seeking the words our Lord Jesus Christ has to say to you!! That is not only how we are to get understanding about the Bible, but how to get understanding in all parts of our lives!! But if a person doesn't know to seek Jesus Christ and His words to them even about the Bible, how then are they going to figure out they need the words of God from Jesus for all areas of their life? And the OP had no indication of seeking Jesus Christ, but only the instructions to try and lean on our own understanding and doubling down on that! That is just wrong.

Of course the way to God is to first pray to God, which is just talking to God as I said, in humility, but then will he answer you audibly with a teaching of 138k words? No, so we must seek God through His word - as He purposed. It is His message to us. Faith comes by the WORD. (Romas 10:17) Jesus of course is the Word, the exact expression and illumination of God . Before the printed Bible, many would just have to hear His words preached.

You has written "You approach the Bible seeking God in humility," - and I responded, "We don't "approach the Bible seeking God in humility" we approach (Jesus Christ) the King of kings and Lord of lords in humility!!!"

Too often we only think about turning to the Bible instead of turning to Jesus Christ. Have we not read to seek first the Kingdom of God? The Bible is not part of the Kingdom of God, but the King surely is! Too many people think that knowing God is all about knowing the Bible! That is sooo far from truth! Knowing God is all about walking and talking with Him through out the day. That is not to say He won't have you open up your Bible and teach your from it, but our lives are soooo much more than just studying the Bible! Indeed, the Bible has a record of people following Jesus Christ as the Word of God in their lives. It does not have a good record of people trying to live their lives by the Scriptures. It has a bad record of people trying to live their lives by the Scriptures instead of following Jesus Christ.

Gal 3: 1,2 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

And that is all true of Jesus. The Holy Spirit counsels and guides us no differently.

Again - the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative!! He takes the words of Jesus Christ and brings them to you!!

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

While the Holy Spirit is a person in the trinity, HE DOES NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN INTITIATIVE BUT WHATEVER HE HEARS HE WILL SPEAK.

A phone is like that. A phone does not speak on it's own initiative but takes the words from one person and gives those - so do you go around saying the phone is your counselor? The phone may bring you counsel but the words are those from the person on the other end of the phone!

So concerning the Holy Spirit, His counsel is to listen to the words that come from Jesus Christ!! It is those words that He speaks to you!!

Jesus said - Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

So the words we hear via the Holy Spirit are the words of Jesus Christ. So then who is the counselor?? Answer is: Jesus Christ is the Wonderful Counselor!! We can hear from Him via the Holy Spirit who gives us the words of God which come from Jesus Christ!! If then you run across a spirit claiming to be the Holy Spirit and telling you that the words you are hearing are his, thus not proclaiming the Jesus Christ is Lord, then you have you come across a wrong spirit???

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Well it is the way to knowing about Jesus.

The way to know Jesus Christ is to the same way we get to know anyone! We spend time in conversation with them. You can read a book about a famous president, but that does not mean you know that president! But if you go to lunch with the president where it is just you and him talking back and forth over lunch, then you get to know him and he gets to know you. That is why it is common that when a guy wants to get to know a girl he asks her out for dinner.

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

The above is the invitation!! Now if you do get a girl to accept you invitation to dinner, are you really going to just make your conversation about a book??? When you take a class at school the conversation might be about the textbook, but isn't the church supposed to be more like a bride? Maybe it was not the thinking of the Pharisees, but it is ours, right?

He was speaking to the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews. They denied Him.

It actually just referred to the Jews in general!!

Jn 5: 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”Did we not read that

And have we not read that we are supposed to be grafted into the Jewish root? So it can apply to us. Indeed, why is it even recorded in the Bible if there was something for us to learn from it?

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God and God, so He is omni-present! If we have His Holy Spirit, we have Him. So if we start making it about the "The Holy Spirit" as opposed to making it about Him, like the Holy Spirit wants, then have we not also denied Him? His Holy Spirit is out to glorify Him, the Son, Jesus Christ!! The Holy Spirit even goes so far as to not even speak on His own initiative!! The Holy Spirit will be about telling you Jesus Christ is Lord, that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit comes into agreement with the Father who said,

Mat 5:17 ...“This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

So why are we trying to tell people to read their bibles, and listen to the Holy Spirit? If you seek Jesus Christ and His words to listen to, He will send His Holy Spirit with His words, and He will most certainly tell you to read the Bible and go over it with you! Still, most of the time He will make it about a relationship between you and Him! I can't tell you the number of times I have heard Him tell me, "Karl, I love you."

Therefore a person who knows the Lord would never tell you that the Bible is sufficient!

The Bible is sufficient. It is a supernatural message system from God to mankind.

The Bible is not supernatural, it is a collection of writings from people who actually knew the Lord!!

Once I meet with a pastor and he was saying things like that. On the way home the Lord started telling me, "Quad God, Quad God, Quad God.!"

He explained that there are people who are making an idol out of their Bible!! So to them God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and the Bible. We don't have a Quad God. The Bible is not God!! It is a record, a book, lines upon lines of text, given to us to teach us from! It is good for reproof, for correction, and for training up the man of God. But don't we understand that is written because Jesus Christ is the Teacher and the Wonderful Counselor who is doing the reproof, teaching, and training up???

Jesus is called a wonderful counselor. He also said that He would pray that the Father would send "another Helper, the Counselor", Whom would live in you and be with you forever.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

James 3:1-2 KJV
1) My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

The greater condemnation, from whom? From God? Or from others? This passage does not state which it is speaking of. The same is true of being justified in chapter 2, just before this passage. That justification is to men, who can see the works, not God, who sees the heart. But James does give the reason we are judged more harshly, because in many things, we offend everyone.

I think "judgement" is a better word. Condemnation implies damnation. But this not judgment as in the loss of your salvation or as unbelievers are judged. Christians will be judged based on what they did, their ministry, their work, etc. Their work will be tested with fire. Whatever is good will be rewarded and whatever is not will be burned up, yet they will still be saved. So some of us will receive more rewards than others. Billy Graham will be getting more than me or any of us. That's okay. I am glad I was not called to be in the pulpit, a preacher, or a teacher in the classroom - I am just a layman. I guess on some level, we share and teach others and so we all are to be careful with the doctrines we spew out! I could imagine when I get up there that Jesus spends a good amount of time going over the mistakes I made. For some it will be embarrassing ... "Oh so you think I am Michael? Here, let me introduce him to you!"
Bible teachers (who hopefully are gifted, ordained and educated), who teach in the pulpit, have more responsibility. They really need to get it right and those who don't can lead others astray, believing false doctrines.
Also this verse is not compatible with what Romans 8:1 states: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The condemnation here refers to the Lake of Fire, destruction!

 

[Karl Peters]

I wish someone had told me this 50 years ago when I first became a Christian. Thanks.

.

Yes indeed!! I was taken to Sunday school when I was a child, but like you the message I heard presented gave the expectation that Jesus must either be dead or in a far-off place called heaven. So when on my own I didn't go to church anymore. Why go to church sense they didn't know God? But when I was just over 40 He came into my life. The first words I heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", but He was not the Bible! He was the One who take to me. To keep it short, I will just say that Him and I got to know each other. We often walk and talk together. I hear from Him every day called "Today". He often tells me "Karl, I love you" which is incredible that He might love me. And He tells me sooo much more. He will and does talk to me about everything in my life. I was going through a divorce when He came into my life, but a few years later He gave me a wife who also hears from Him. He gave me my own little business. He has had me do a lot of things for Him, like open a Christian bookstore for Him, and work in a Christain healing ministry where I have seen hundreds and maybe a thousand people get healing from Him. Still, it is the time just walking and talking with Him that I think I like most.

So it is that I tell people about Him and how it is to walk and talk with Him, because He is worth knowing personally!! And while I have seen Him grow out a person's leg in front of me, and cause a growth to go away under my own hands while I prayed, I still like the conversations with Him more. He is weird, but incredible. He says the neatest things. And I have heard so many things from Him in the twenty plus years of knowing Him personally.

So when someone start writing that understanding comes from reading your Bible and studying it more and more, I just got to get that idea out of here!

He once told me, "Karl, understanding is understanding that I am Understanding!" He says things in the funnest ways sometimes, but what He says is truth.

He is Understanding!! Didn't they read that in their constant studying of the bible???

Prov 2:11 Discretion will guard you,
Understanding will watch over you,

Prov 7:4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your intimate friend;

Prov 8:14 “Counsel is mine and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, power is mine.

Jesus Christ is Understanding!! It is one of His names. We can be His friend and we need to make Him and intimate friend of ours!

Jesus is of course call Understanding, because listening to Him give us understanding, where as leaning on our own understanding does not!

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

So what of a person who says they will read and study their bible for understanding? That is not how you get understanding. Understanding comes for listen to the words of the Lord that come from His mouth.

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

The fact is that if we seek for Understanding (Jesus Christ) He sends (gives us) His Holy Spirit, who is the mouth of God and gives us wisdom. From the mouth of Wisdom (The Holy Spirit) we get the words of God which belong to the Son, Understanding.

Ok, it might be in parabolic form, but it is easy. To get understanding on everything in your life, including the Bible, you just seek Jesus Christ and listen to Him. You hear His words in you, because He sends His Holy Spirit with His words for you. Understanding that is understanding indeed!!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

the Holy Spirit does not speak to you on His own initiative, but as He hears He speaks!! He does that because He always glorifies the Son! So let us look at what has been posted.

"for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." This just means that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. He will not speak on His own means, something different than Jesus taught. Imagine the Holy Spirit coming, when Jesus was still there? Would they not be conflicted? Who do we listen to, to you or him, especially if He was giving additional teachings that Jesus did not give. So the unity in the message is perfect. That is all this is implying. You won't get anything different from the Spirit. You get exactly the same, the whole counsel of God delievers your needs.

You has written "You approach the Bible seeking God in humility," - and I responded, "We don't "approach the Bible seeking God in humility" we approach (Jesus Christ) the King of kings and Lord of lords in humility!!!"

Jesus is God. The Word is the expression and message of God to us.

The Bible is not part of the Kingdom of God, but the King surely is!

Never heard that one before. Without the Bible, there would be no Church, it would just be collections of fabrications of what people think they heard God tell them. This is what we see outside of the Judeo/Christian religion, false gods, false religions, lost souls drifting, imagining all sorts of weird stuff, reincarnation, the universal energy force, crystal power ... may the force be with you Yoda.

That is sooo far from truth! Knowing God is all about walking and talking with Him through out the day.

Prayer is very important. But you don't get extensive audible teaching and instructions, or the stories of the Bible exactly how it was delivered to us, the TRUTH. You can get a good idea from just reading the Book of John of who Jesus is. That's 18k words. Should take you two hours or so. Do you think you can get that information through prayer? Are you going to know Jesus without reading the Bible? lol

It does not have a good record of people trying to live their lives by the Scriptures. It has a bad record of people trying to live their lives by the Scriptures instead of following Jesus Christ.

The stories in the Bible reveal good and evil in man. It was intended to do so.

The way to know Jesus Christ is to the same way we get to know anyone!

Really, I think not. You communicate verbally with people and the respond verbally, in complete sentences, organized thoughts. Tell me in an exact descriptive sentence what Jesus said to you, last time you prayed? Did He tell you His story?

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

The above is the invitation!!

It is a great invitation. But the door is the door of your heart. We are to hold His Word in our hearts. Faith comes by the WORD.

So why are we trying to tell people to read their bibles, and listen to the Holy Spirit?

Every gifted PREACHER, TEACHER of the Gospel will tell you the Story of Jesus. He will also tell you of our origins, who we are, who made us, our history, about sin, that we are sinners, about how following our own paths end in failure without God, that we need Him, His forgiveness and that He offers a second chance. Believe in Him and you will be saved. So eventually he will take an alter call to come forward and receive Christ. After hearing His word, it penetrates and God draws you. It is a divine appointment. Of course all this has been prepared, His drawing you to come to Christ. The word transforms us supernaturally and we begin to believe, He persuades us, convinces us. But my point is, when you do go forward to receive Him, He will always guide you in prayer and then counsel you afterwards to GET A BIBLE AND START READING, CONTINUE TO GO TO CHURCH, GET INTO A BIBLE STUDY GROUP. They all do this. If they don't, they aren't worth squat.

The Bible is not supernatural, it is a collection of writings from people who actually knew the Lord!!

The Word of God transcended to mankind by the Spirit of God. It is from outside this world, men given words to speak and write down exactly how God wanted them to. All scripture is God breathed.
The Inspiration of Scripture

 

[farouk]

Years ago, I was wrestling with an atheist online. He said that the reason he was an atheist was because of the "many contradictions in the bible". I looked online, and found a site (run by an atheist) that listed over 700 'contradictions'. As I poured through those contradictions, I kept shaking my head, "No...no...and.........no." They weren't contradictions at all. In fact, MOST of them were simply verses taken out of context.

The bible (to me) is like a law book. For example, if one is researching secular law regarding Evictions, they wouldn't be able to go to ONE volume, with a table of contents...and go to ONE chapter that talks about EVERYTHING that has to do with Evictions. Chances are, they'd have numerous volumes in front of them, from different areas of the law.

The same with the bible. If one wants to read about "judging", one won't find ALL about it in a single volume, under the chapter heading of "Judging." It's spread out throughout the bible, just as Evictions are spread out throughout the law. And, in secular law, one has to read what's written before a particular law, and after, in order to get the FULL context. Same with the bible.

Secular law books also have annotations, footnotes and cross-references. So do a LOT of bibles these days.

The point is, that we can't simply read one verse and think, "I've GOT it!" We have to read EVERYTHING that's related to that one verse in order to "get it." Just for example, you wrote that (paraphrasing) we're not to judge, lest we be judged. And yet, another verse says that we are to judge "righteously." So, are we allowed to judge or not?

Yes, we are. But we have to be careful in our judgments. We make judgements daily. We judge the way people look...what they say...how they say it. And quite often, we make erroneous judgments, without knowing the WHOLE story.

So, to me, in this instance, it's o.k. to judge...as long as we know the whole story.

Then again, how OFTEN do we know the whole story?

@Mink57 A good question to ask is, Has the light of God's Word revealed instead all the contradictions in me?

 

[Karl Peters]

"for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." This just means that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. He will not speak on His own means, something different than Jesus taught. Imagine the Holy Spirit coming, when Jesus was still there? Would they not be conflicted? Who do we listen to, to you or him, especially if He was giving additional teachings that Jesus did not give. So the unity in the message is perfect. That is all this is implying. You won't get anything different from the Spirit. You get exactly the same, the whole counsel of God delievers your needs.

It does mean that the Father, Son, and Spirit are One God, but Jesus Christ (the Son) is the One being glorified according to the desires of the Father and the Spirit. So it is that the Father put His Son on the throne and gave all His things to the Son, and that means the words of God. The words of God belong to the Son!

Jn 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Jesus owns as a possession, the words of God!! The Spirit take those words of His and discloses it to us. So we hear the words of God when we listen to the Spirit, but those words do not belong to the Spirit but to the Son!

Jesus is God. The Word is the expression and message of God to us.

Jesus is named "The Word of God", because He is in fact the owner of the words of God!! This is not just an expression and messaged of God - it is a fact!!

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

That is not just some weird expression, is a fact!! Indeed, His name is called "The Word of God, so if you read the Scriptures and read something like, 'the word of the Lord came to me saying," that meant in fact that the One we call Jesus Christ came to that person and talked to them.

Jer 13:8 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 18:5 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 24:4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 32:6 And Jeremiah said, “The word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jeremiah was explaining that in fact the Christ who is named The Word of God/Lord, was coming and speaking to Him! It is not just some expression and message but is what happens. His sheep hear His voice. It is that small voice that we hear inside us. That means the word of the Lord (Jesus Christ) comes to us saying...

Never heard that one before. Without the Bible, there would be no Church, it would just be collections of fabrications of what people think they heard God tell them. This is what we see outside of the Judeo/Christian religion, false gods, false religions, lost souls drifting, imagining all sorts of weird stuff, reincarnation, the universal energy force, crystal power ... may the force be with you Yoda.

Prayer is very important. But you don't get extensive audible teaching and instructions, or the stories of the Bible exactly how it was delivered to us, the TRUTH. You can get a good idea from just reading the Book of John of who Jesus is. That's 18k words. Should take you two hours or so. Do you think you can get that information through prayer? Are you going to know Jesus without reading the Bible? lol

It is important that you listen to the Lord!! That is the foremost command -"Hear, O Israel"!

Mark 12:29 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

Hear, O Israel, is a command, and the foremost command. It is the command that actually allows you to find out the God is One Lord. You find out that the Father gives His words to the Son, so the Son owns them. You find out that the Son does and says only what the Father tells Him, which is probably why the Father did give everything to the Son. You find out that the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative but takes the words of God with belong to the Son and speaks them to your spirit. So you wind up in a personal relationship with the Son. That relationship results in loving the Son (the Lord our God) That is why the next thing written is, "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’" If you indeed start listening to Jesus Christ you wind up loving Him. If not, perhaps you can love your Bible?

Now the first words I heard from Jesus Christ were "Read Your Bible" but there have been plenty of people in the past who did have the Bible. So it is not the Bible we seek, but the Son of God (Jesus Christ) whom we seek. I was once told, "We don't use the Lord to preach the Bible we use the Bible to preach the Lord." Have you got that backwards?

The stories in the Bible reveal good and evil in man. It was intended to do so.

The Pharisees read and studied the Bible but Jesus told them their father was the devil. So you conclusion is just wrong! It is not the Bible but the Lord who reveals the good and evil in man!! You keep replacing God with the Bible!! And the Bible is a testimony to the existence of the Lord our God.

Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Really, I think not. You communicate verbally with people and the respond verbally, in complete sentences, organized thoughts. Tell me in an exact descriptive sentence what Jesus said to you, last time you prayed? Did He tell you His story?

He told me earlier, "Karl, you need to wake up Mark. I need him up by ten. Then He had me take my son Mark to breakfast before he had to take off for work." I am not sure if that was the last thing though. I hear from Him through out the day and often just take in the information and go with it with out thinking much about it.

For example He just told me that He wanted me to take a trip or walk with Him after I finish this post. I was writing this as He said it and was a bit distracted as He talked to me. I am going to have to check back with Him to see if it is a drive or walk. It is a drive. He has something He wants me to pick up. What people who don't get about the Lord is that He is always there and quite regularly speaks to those who listen to Him.

Is 30: 20,21 Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

People can read the Bible and study it and still complete miss what is explained in the Bible. When Jesus said He is always with you and will never leave you, He didn't lie. Yet people start thinking that if God was going to talk to them it must be some incredible "story". The thing is that He is more into guide your steps and telling you the little things. The big things come from just doing the little things He tells you to do. You find out that the relationship with Him is the important thing. But if you need a story, He often like giving little stories/parables. I will give you one.

THE MAN THAT LIVED IN A BOX:


There was a man that lived in a box, and his whole life he lived in that box. People would come to the door and try to talk to him about the world outside the box, but he loved it inside the box. In the box he could always have things just the way he wanted it, and so it was in his box. He put everything in its place according to his own desires.


Now the problem came at the end of his life. He found out that all boxes get burned, and if you are inside of them at that time, you too will get burned. So it was that the box got put inside the oven, the door shut, and the flames pierced the box.


Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust


The point is that Jesus stands at the door and knocks, and if anyone opens up to Him He will come into them and talk with them and them with Him. Yet they love it just the way it is, so they don't open up to Him. They keep everything their box/heads just they way we want it. He once told me. "Karl, everything I need to tell you can't be kept in a box, not even a Bible box. Will 1500 pages tell you all the things I need to cover with you?

People just don't understand. If I had not heard the Lord tell me to get up my son this mornig, he might not have gone to work, because he is a college soccer coach and didn't have to go and scout today. He had already done it Friday and Saturday. But because the Lord had me get Him up He went and it looks like he is going to seal the deal on a left back and a attacking midfielder/forward. He didn't know until today that the midfielder is even better as a forward and he needed a forward more than a midfielder. So seeking first the Kingdom of God, which includes the King, means we get what we need when we need it. The Bible can't possibly tell you all that you need to hear from Him!!!

 

[Mink57]

@Mink57 A good question to ask is, Has the light of God's Word revealed instead all the contradictions in me?

I think it was C.S. Lewis who revealed that once he decided to read the bible WITH AN OPEN MIND, it was then that he saw the truth within it.

I know that when I read it, and if I come across something I don't understand or that seems 'contradictory', my first thought is, "I must not be reading this the right way." In other words, if I read it with the spirit of humility, that's when I most often "get it."

 

[farouk]

I think it was C.S. Lewis who revealed that once he decided to read the bible WITH AN OPEN MIND, it was then that he saw the truth within it.

I know that when I read it, and if I come across something I don't understand or that seems 'contradictory', my first thought is, "I must not be reading this the right way." In other words, if I read it with the spirit of humility, that's when I most often "get it."

@Mink57 We need the Holy Spirit to have the Word 'ring true' with us............Good to pray when we read Scripture trustingly..........

 

[Karl Peters]

I think it was C.S. Lewis who revealed that once he decided to read the bible WITH AN OPEN MIND, it was then that he saw the truth within it.

I know that when I read it, and if I come across something I don't understand or that seems 'contradictory', my first thought is, "I must not be reading this the right way." In other words, if I read it with the spirit of humility, that's when I most often "get it."

What does "WITH AND OPEN MIND" mean?

I love the writings of C. S. Lewis. He was quite a thinker. Still, there are very smart people, and there is the Lord. If by "an open mind" we mean that a smart person tries to open up to what Jesus Christ is saying to them, and considers what they get, that is a truley smart person indeed.! If they mean they are open to anything things that comes to their, mind then that is not a smart person. C. S Lewis seems to be a very smart person indeed to me. How did he come up with the idea of writing "The Screw Tape Letters" , where demons are speaking to the thoughts of people to mess them up. He must have had some realization that we are spoken to by both God and demons. So he must had ears to hear somethings that happened in the spiritual realm around us.

As for me, when I come across something in the Bible that seems to contradict something else, I take it to Jesus Christ, and try a listen to what He tells me, then I consider it. You can find out some really neat things that way. Of course you can also do that with things you come across in your daily walk. He is not limited to just explaining the Bible!

 

[Wrangler]

Here is an experiment. Take an extreme view based on one verse or two...now..refute that extreme by finding a verse that seems to contradict it. Do it again and again...until you you have a whole list of seeming contradictions.

To know the truth, even in low resolution form...takes BOTH extremes into account.

Graduate level studies! Outstanding!!!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It does mean that the Father, Son, and Spirit are One God, but Jesus Christ (the Son) is the One being glorified according to the desires of the Father and the Spirit. So it is that the Father put His Son on the throne and gave all His things to the Son, and that means the words of God. The words of God belong to the Son!

Jn 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Jesus owns as a possession, the words of God!! The Spirit take those words of His and discloses it to us. So we hear the words of God when we listen to the Spirit, but those words do not belong to the Spirit but to the Son!



Jesus is named "The Word of God", because He is in fact the owner of the words of God!! This is not just an expression and messaged of God - it is a fact!!

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

That is not just some weird expression, is a fact!! Indeed, His name is called "The Word of God, so if you read the Scriptures and read something like, 'the word of the Lord came to me saying," that meant in fact that the One we call Jesus Christ came to that person and talked to them.

Jer 13:8 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 18:5 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 24:4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 32:6 And Jeremiah said, “The word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jeremiah was explaining that in fact the Christ who is named The Word of God/Lord, was coming and speaking to Him! It is not just some expression and message but is what happens. His sheep hear His voice. It is that small voice that we hear inside us. That means the word of the Lord (Jesus Christ) comes to us saying...






It is important that you listen to the Lord!! That is the foremost command -"Hear, O Israel"!

Mark 12:29 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

Hear, O Israel, is a command, and the foremost command. It is the command that actually allows you to find out the God is One Lord. You find out that the Father gives His words to the Son, so the Son owns them. You find out that the Son does and says only what the Father tells Him, which is probably why the Father did give everything to the Son. You find out that the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative but takes the words of God with belong to the Son and speaks them to your spirit. So you wind up in a personal relationship with the Son. That relationship results in loving the Son (the Lord our God) That is why the next thing written is, "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’" If you indeed start listening to Jesus Christ you wind up loving Him. If not, perhaps you can love your Bible?

Now the first words I heard from Jesus Christ were "Read Your Bible" but there have been plenty of people in the past who did have the Bible. So it is not the Bible we seek, but the Son of God (Jesus Christ) whom we seek. I was once told, "We don't use the Lord to preach the Bible we use the Bible to preach the Lord." Have you got that backwards?



The Pharisees read and studied the Bible but Jesus told them their father was the devil. So you conclusion is just wrong! It is not the Bible but the Lord who reveals the good and evil in man!! You keep replacing God with the Bible!! And the Bible is a testimony to the existence of the Lord our God.

Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.



He told me earlier, "Karl, you need to wake up Mark. I need him up by ten. Then He had me take my son Mark to breakfast before he had to take off for work." I am not sure if that was the last thing though. I hear from Him through out the day and often just take in the information and go with it with out thinking much about it.

For example He just told me that He wanted me to take a trip or walk with Him after I finish this post. I was writing this as He said it and was a bit distracted as He talked to me. I am going to have to check back with Him to see if it is a drive or walk. It is a drive. He has something He wants me to pick up. What people who don't get about the Lord is that He is always there and quite regularly speaks to those who listen to Him.

Is 30: 20,21 Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

People can read the Bible and study it and still complete miss what is explained in the Bible. When Jesus said He is always with you and will never leave you, He didn't lie. Yet people start thinking that if God was going to talk to them it must be some incredible "story". The thing is that He is more into guide your steps and telling you the little things. The big things come from just doing the little things He tells you to do. You find out that the relationship with Him is the important thing. But if you need a story, He often like giving little stories/parables. I will give you one.

THE MAN THAT LIVED IN A BOX:


There was a man that lived in a box, and his whole life he lived in that box. People would come to the door and try to talk to him about the world outside the box, but he loved it inside the box. In the box he could always have things just the way he wanted it, and so it was in his box. He put everything in its place according to his own desires.


Now the problem came at the end of his life. He found out that all boxes get burned, and if you are inside of them at that time, you too will get burned. So it was that the box got put inside the oven, the door shut, and the flames pierced the box.


Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust


The point is that Jesus stands at the door and knocks, and if anyone opens up to Him He will come into them and talk with them and them with Him. Yet they love it just the way it is, so they don't open up to Him. They keep everything their box/heads just they way we want it. He once told me. "Karl, everything I need to tell you can't be kept in a box, not even a Bible box. Will 1500 pages tell you all the things I need to cover with you?

People just don't understand. If I had not heard the Lord tell me to get up my son this mornig, he might not have gone to work, because he is a college soccer coach and didn't have to go and scout today. He had already done it Friday and Saturday. But because the Lord had me get Him up He went and it looks like he is going to seal the deal on a left back and a attacking midfielder/forward. He didn't know until today that the midfielder is even better as a forward and he needed a forward more than a midfielder. So seeking first the Kingdom of God, which includes the King, means we get what we need when we need it. The Bible can't possibly tell you all that you need to hear from Him!!!

Love, faith, peace and joy to you.

 

[ScottA]

How to understand the Bible. Well, to be honest one must take in the whole counsel of God.

Here is an experiment. Take an extreme view based on one verse or two...now..refute that extreme by finding a verse that seems to contradict it. Do it again and again...until you you have a whole list of seeming contradictions.

To know the truth, even in low resolution form...takes BOTH extremes into account.

The range of our perceptions as humans is very narrow. Dogs can hear things and smell things way beyond the range of humans. Eagles can see much better than we do.

If we can admit that animals are superior to us in many perceptions...then why is it so difficult to consider that the writers of the Bible had far more understanding than we do? Do we limit the smell of dogs to what we can smell? Do we limit eagles to what we can see?

So why do we limit God and those whom He reveals Himself to?

God hates an unjust balance.

"A false balance (moznayim) is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight." Prov. 11:1

The word for balance in Hebrew means "from ears" (plural) moznayim, which means we have to listen with both ears. Now hardly anyone does this. People will accept a notion of the truth as if truth was the same as facts. We are so used to forming our own opinions we don't realize that facts are only for this temporal world. We need an entirely other means to understand eternal truth. And eternal truth always comes to us as a plurality of seeming contradictions. That's why a balanced view is so important.

Our opinions will lead us astray...every time.

We are not to lean on our own understanding. We will certainly close one of our ears unless we have experienced eternal truth on ITS terms...not ours.

Awesome--well stated!

One of the biggest issues people seem to have--although it is completely scriptural--is God's chosen method of revealing all truth. It's not even the scriptures! The scriptures only came after. And what follows the scriptures--what is the order of the day and our times, specifically? It is that "all truth" is to come just as it came first to form the scriptures of old--by the Spirit.

And just how does that happen, how has God shown it to happen: through individuals, and to individuals...but to the greater congregation..only second hand, only elementary. When Paul boldly claimed the correct need to "press on" "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ" (as if He dare to say it out loud--but he did because it is necessary), he was referring to pressing into the Spirit, receiving that next phase that was beyond the capability of the flesh. Did not even Christ himself not die and come to the end of His own flesh telling everything that men of flesh could bear, saying "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now?" And what was to be the next phase--what did He set in motion?

The Spirit.

But who has perceived that He first laid before us life and death--just as Moses did with Israel before they were to cross into the land foreshadowing the promise--but before us, the flesh or the Spirit...and that men chose to return to following the flesh?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There are apparent contradictions in the Bible, but they are not. It is in harmony with itself all the way though.

We are not to judge, as in, judge not lest you be judged.....yet we are to judge righteously. (righteous judgment)

But the scripture actually says don't judge unless you first clean up your own life and then are willing to be judged by the same measuring stick. "Take the log out of your eye first, THEN you can help to remove the speck in your brother's eye. Judgment is a fundamental principle. Sin needs to be judged. GOD authorized and ordained governments with military, police and courts to do just that, to protect us from evil.

We are to love our wives.......and.....unless we hate our wives we cannot be disciples.

Context is key. He was speaking to the disciples. And in a way, we are to hate sin in our own lives as well as anyone else's. But the disciples could not devote themselves to their mission while being married.

The many righteous...and none are righteous.

Christ imputes His righteousness to us, therefore Christians are made righteous, washed by His blood. We are all born into sin, dirty rags, unrighteous until we are washed. Context.

Jesus as God.....yet He has a God...the same as we do.

Hebrews 1:8 - the Father has one too!

The curse of the cross (cursed is he who hangs on a cross.

Perspective. Physically, yes - it is a cursed, painful death. But Christ's crucifixion was a blessing that leads to our salvation. He suffered death for us. No one else's death on a cross did anything for us.

Fear not and perfect love casts out all fear....yet ....the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdo

There a a few different applications and kinds of fear.
To fear God, means to take Him seriously because your life is at stake and once you begin to realize that it is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge and faith.
Fear of evil, sin, the world is the opposite of faith. In this respect, He says "fear not". Our physical lives are temporal and so they can kill our bodies, but they cannot take our souls.
Then there is the fear of getting to close to the edge of a cliff, or speeding in a car recklessly, illnesses, or basically of any danger and harm that seems like it is coming our way. This is good; it alerts us to react, respond in order to protect ourselves, a defensive mechanism.

There is no condemnation in Christ...yet Christian teachers will receive the greater condemnation.

There is no spiritual comdemnation, as in the judgment of destruction in the Lake of Fire.
Judgment for the Christian's life and all his works, will be tested with fire. Everything that is worldly, like money, fame, awards, selfish conquests will not pass on - BUT we will still be saved! Only the works that the Holy Spirit has prepared for you to do, will pass on and then you'll get a well done good and faithful servant when you arrive. He factors all our blunders into His plan so it is impossible for any Christian to live a perfectly holy life.

There will never be a consensus by these types of people. They will avoid a proper balance by championing one extreme view or the other. Why? because an extreme view will attract a larger crowd.

You mean like the Trinitarian view?
God is sovereign and so everything is moving along as planned. Otherwise you might think we can screw up His plans?

The deadness of the modern church has led to a collapse in modern society. Without holiness in the church we are seeing an increase in unrighteousness.

No, everything is as it should be. Sovereignty means He is in control. Otherwise prophecy, the future would be unknown and our faith would be fragile at best, uncertainly of His promises. Good and Evil were purposely woven through history.

 

[Karl Peters]

Awesome--well stated!

One of the biggest issues people seem to have--although it is completely scriptural--is God's chosen method of revealing all truth. It's not even the scriptures! The scriptures only came after. And what follows the scriptures--what is the order of the day and our times, specifically? It is that "all truth" is to come just as it came first to form the scriptures of old--by the Spirit.

And just how does that happen, how has God shown it to happen: through individuals, and to individuals...but to the greater congregation..only second hand, only elementary. When Paul boldly claimed the correct need to "press on" "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ" (as if He dare to say it out loud--but he did because it is necessary), he was referring to pressing into the Spirit, receiving that next phase that was beyond the capability of the flesh. Did Christ not die and come to the end of His own flesh telling all that He could, saying "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now?" And what was to be the next phase--what did He set in motion?

The Spirit.

But who has perceived that He first lay before us life and death--just as Moses did with Israel before they were to cross into the land foreshadowing the promise--but to us, the flesh or the Spirit...and that men chose to return to following the flesh?

I like the above post! We do get the revelation through the Holy Spirit by listening to His words, which are spirit. However, it is the Son (Jesus Christ who gets the glory) according to both the Father and the Spirit! Indeed the Holy Spirit has such a great desire to glorify the Son that the Holy Spirit does not even speak on His own initiative! He takes the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ, whose name is "The Word of God" because the Father gave the words of God to the Son and He owns them.

So we don't talk to the Holy Spirit but rather we talk to Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit acts like a living telephone line to the Son, and when you talk to your brother over the phone you don't say you talk to the phone but that you talk to your brother over the phone. I the same way we don't say we talk to the Holy Spirit but rather that we talk to Jesus Christ when in the Spirit, or something like that.

I bring this up again because the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit around. The devil will come as a spirit of light - that is to say demons will come pretending to be the Holy Spirit and they will glorify themselves as if they are the Holy Spirit. So one of the ways we test the spirits are to see if they are into glorifying Jesus Christ as Lord. That is what the Holy Spirit always does. And again - the Holy Spirit does that by not speaking on His own initiative, but rather He takes the words of God from the Son and speaks those words to you.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

So the question we need to ask ourselves is: are we saying Jesus Christ our Lord?

Saying we have to listen to the Holy Spirit might not be the same thing? I might be, if we are just stating that we get in touch with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit. That is just a fact. But if our message turns from seeking Jesus Christ to seeking the Holy Spirit, then we are starting to glorify the Holy Spirit as opposed to Jesus Christ, which is something the Holy Spirit does not do.

Yes, the Lord sends us the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Holy Spirit does speak to us, but only what He gets from the Son. Of course the Son got His words from the Father who gave Him the words of God. Yet both the Father and the Holy Spirit want Jesus Christ glorified! So it is that we seek and find Jesus Christ! That happens via the Holy Spirit, and we need to make that clear, but we don't seek the Holy Spirit, we seek Jesus Christ the Lord our God!!