How to be an honest Christian thinker.

[ScottA]

I like the above post! We do get the revelation through the Holy Spirit by listening to His words, which are spirit. However, it is the Son (Jesus Christ who gets the glory) according to both the Father and the Spirit! Indeed the Holy Spirit has such a great desire to glorify the Son that the Holy Spirit does not even speak on His own initiative! He takes the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ, whose name is "The Word of God" because the Father gave the words of God to the Son and He owns them.

So we don't talk to the Holy Spirit but rather we talk to Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit acts like a living telephone line to the Son, and when you talk to your brother over the phone you don't say you talk to the phone but that you talk to your brother over the phone. I the same way we don't say we talk to the Holy Spirit but rather that we talk to Jesus Christ when in the Spirit, or something like that.

I bring this up again because the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit around. The devil will come as a spirit of light - that is to say demons will come pretending to be the Holy Spirit and they will glorify themselves as if they are the Holy Spirit. So one of the ways we test the spirits are to see if they are into glorifying Jesus Christ as Lord. That is what the Holy Spirit always does. And again - the Holy Spirit does that by not speaking on His own initiative, but rather He takes the words of God from the Son and speaks those words to you.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

So the question we need to ask ourselves is: are we saying Jesus Christ our Lord?

Saying we have to listen to the Holy Spirit might not be the same thing? I might be, if we are just stating that we get in touch with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit. That is just a fact. But if our message turns from seeking Jesus Christ to seeking the Holy Spirit, then we are starting to glorify the Holy Spirit as opposed to Jesus Christ, which is something the Holy Spirit does not do.

Yes, the Lord sends us the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Holy Spirit does speak to us, but only what He gets from the Son. Of course the Son got His words from the Father who gave Him the words of God. Yet both the Father and the Holy Spirit want Jesus Christ glorified! So it is that we seek and find Jesus Christ! That happens via the Holy Spirit, and we need to make that clear, but we don't seek the Holy Spirit, we seek Jesus Christ the Lord our God!!

Yes--you made such a good point of it that I started a new thread to clarify: The Spirit...and All Authority

 

[BarneyFife]

It would seem it has been concluded by more than a few persons that to be an honest Christian thinker one has to be prepared to move beyond the Bible.

And, with this, I would have to wholeheartedly disagree, and also mention that it is precisely this kind of "honest" thinking that has ushered Christianity into the waiting arms of Postmodernist philosophy and pluralism.

There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.

And there is enough Spirit-inspired/teachable Truth in the Holy Scriptures to keep finite men occupied for eternity.

The plumbless depths of the love of God in Christ are found in the Word, which became flesh and dwelt among us.

The Word made flesh opened to the mourners on the road to Emmaus in the Word all things pertaining to Himself.

The Word of God is living and inexhaustible. It is no ordinary book. And the Spirit of God does not operate contrary to or apart from His Word.

The many things Christ had to tell His disciples that they could not yet bear were found by them largely in the Word of God.

I am the Way the Truth, and the Life.

Sanctify them through Thy Truth; Thy Word is Truth.



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[Mink57]

What does "WITH AND OPEN MIND" mean?

It means (in part) that you don't have any feelings/prejudices/judgements about it one way or another...until after you've had the experience, and/or, gathered all the information necessary to make a sound judgement. It means entertaining possibilities, including the possibility that our initial assessment is wrong. Of course, we would need humility in order to do that.

I love the writings of C. S. Lewis. He was quite a thinker. Still, there are very smart people, and there is the Lord. If by "an open mind" we mean that a smart person tries to open up to what Jesus Christ is saying to them, and considers what they get, that is a truley smart person indeed.! If they mean they are open to anything things that comes to their, mind then that is not a smart person.

I like Lewis, too. And I agree that some people consider themselves to be 'open minded' because they'll "try ANYTHING." The willingness to "try ANYTHING" may make you open-minded, but it doesn't necessarily make one smart!

C. S Lewis seems to be a very smart person indeed to me. How did he come up with the idea of writing "The Screw Tape Letters" , where demons are speaking to the thoughts of people to mess them up. He must have had some realization that we are spoken to by both God and demons. So he must had ears to hear somethings that happened in the spiritual realm around us.

I agree! He was quite a thinker...and a writer. He wrote "The Screw Tape Letters" more than 10 years after he became re-committed to Christianity.

As for me, when I come across something in the Bible that seems to contradict something else, I take it to Jesus Christ, and try a listen to what He tells me, then I consider it. You can find out some really neat things that way. Of course you can also do that with things you come across in your daily walk. He is not limited to just explaining the Bible!

Again, agreed!

 

[Berserk]

Karl Peters: "Then the Lord spoke to me boldly saying, "Karl - if they tell you that you have to listen to their pastor then tell them that they have to listen to your Pastor!" John 10: 1-4 “...“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Jesus is speaking here of His earthly ministry, not as the Risen Lord. So Mark 4:9 recognizes that some of his hearers don't listen with spiritual ears: "He who has ears to hear let him hear."
After Jesus' resurrection, it is the Holy Spirit--not Jesus--who speaks to us: "Let the who listens hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (Rev. 2:7. etc.)." Jesus sends the Holy Spirit as His replacement (John 15:26), and yes, the Spirit conveys Jesus' words, but "the Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will teach you everything (14:26)." You seem imagine that the believer can directly petition Jesus; nowhere in Scripture is this allowed! Instead, Jesus taught us to petition the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23-24).

Also, Karl, you invoke Matt. 23:10: "You have one Teacher, the Messiah," but ignore the whole counsel of God: "Gpd has appointed in the church...teachers (1 Cor. 12:28)." I think you need your pastor's teaching about what Jesus really means by what He teaches.
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[quietthinker]

How to be an honest Christian thinker.
What about a quiet thinker?

 

[BarneyFife]

How to be an honest Christian thinker.
What about a quiet thinker?

An honest or dishonest one? Makes a difference. lol

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[quietthinker]

An honest or dishonest one? Makes a difference. lol

If Paul can say he considers himself chief of sinners, how can I beat that?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

If Paul can say he considers himself chief of sinners, how can I beat that?

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2)

If you spent more time reading the scriptures you would not have this little league interpretation.

Paul was obviously referring to his past life when he was persecuting the church of God and was wasting it (Galatians 1:13). Your foolish interpretation has Paul topping those sinful acts as an Apostle of the Lord!

Think man!

 

[quietthinker]

Paul was obviously referring to his past life when he was persecuting the church of God and was wasting it (Galatians 1:13)

Was he? ...or was his awareness so tuned that he realises in spite of his best efforts he still fell far short and pinned any hope he had on God's kindness and his promises? He had no problems admitting the present truth of the matter.

1 Timothy 1:15 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.
'I am' being present tense.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Was he? ...or was his awareness so tuned that he realises in spite of his best efforts he still fell far short and pinned any hope he had on God's kindness and his promises? He had no problems admitting the present truth of the matter.

Go read the Bible man.

Or keep on in your delusion…

Whatever, my conscience is clear.

 

[BarneyFife]

All our righteousness—even that which we have allowed Christ to impute/impart to us:

All of Paul's righteousness in Christ:

The righteousness of Christ:

Any questions?

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[Michiah-Imla]

@BarneyFife @quietthinker

So you two really believe that Paul committed more sins after conversion?!

And that those sins, as an Apostle of the Lord, were worse than those as a Pharisee when he persecuted the saints, wasted the church, locked them up and compelled them to blaspheme, and stood by while a saint was murdered??!!

He was still a chief sinner?

Didn’t Christ take those old sins away?

And having a clean slate you two think he committed new sins that would exceed his old sins…

Oh for goodness sake!

You sinners just love turning holiness into wickedness don’t you?

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20)

 

[quietthinker]

@BarneyFife @quietthinker

So you two really believe that Paul committed more sins after conversion?!

And that those sins, as an Apostle of the Lord, were worse than those as a Pharisee when he persecuted the saints, wasted the church, locked them up and compelled them to blaspheme, and stood by while a saint was murdered??!!

He was still a chief sinner?

Didn’t Christ take those old sins away?

And having a clean slate you two think he committed new sins that would exceed his old sins…

Oh for goodness sake!

You sinners just love turning holiness into wickedness don’t you?

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20)

Sin subjectively is more about awareness of what qualifies as sin than what you think you do, should do or don't do. Can you hear that?
You have a virus; it's terminal.....that means it'll kill you even if you think you're exempt. Unless you are rescued you perish. Jesus came as a Saviour to fulfill God's promise.....not a helper.

Putting darkness for light is saying God's promise of salvation is not reliable if you don't measure up.
Am I promoting wickedness as charged.....definitely not.

 

[Wrangler]

He was still a chief sinner?

It is a good question. Was versus am. I agree with you.

To keep the spirit humble, I do believe we need to consider our lowly, sinful nature without Christ. In other words, it is not merely a change in time from past to present but a heart transplant. Just a thought.

 

[BarneyFife]

@BarneyFife @quietthinker

So you two really believe that Paul committed more sins after conversion?!

And that those sins, as an Apostle of the Lord, were worse than those as a Pharisee when he persecuted the saints, wasted the church, locked them up and compelled them to blaspheme, and stood by while a saint was murdered??!!

He was still a chief sinner?

Didn’t Christ take those old sins away?

And having a clean slate you two think he committed new sins that would exceed his old sins…

Oh for goodness sake!

You sinners just love turning holiness into wickedness don’t you?

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20)

And you have quite an imagination.

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[Michiah-Imla]

And you have quite an imagination.

You “liking” @quietthinker ’s erroneous post is reality.

 

[BarneyFife]

You “liking” @quietthinker ’s erroneous post is reality.

When I -like- a post it doesn't mean I agree 100% with every word contained therein. It is also really none of your business.

It is a mistake to look on the outward appearance of a man and speak as though we know the man's heart.

It is also a mistake to think that conversion is a once-and-done affair.

Do we not find men in the Bible who were believers and afterward fell into sin?

Do we believe that people who have experienced the new birth walk around immune to evil thoughts and deeds?

Was David a believer when he took the wife of Uriah the Hittite for his own and had him killed?

Or was Abram not yet a believer in God when he told his wife to lie to the Egyptians and say she was his sister?

Were Peter and his brethren not men of like passions with the idolaters in Derbe after all?


There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, “The Father Himself loveth you.” John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.

The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.
Steps To Christ—EGW—PP 64-65


Does any of this excuse sin in the slightest?

No!

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[Michiah-Imla]

It is also really none of your business.

Really @BarneyFife ?

What you do on a PUBLIC forum is none of my business?

As for the rest of your sin enabling reasons, I have a biblical sound answer for all of it. But I will just move on. It’s easier to fight righteousness than sin, no suffering is involved (1 Peter 4:1). And your conscience has probably been seared long ago.

You don’t read or hear your Bible much to believe a Christian still sins.

 

[BarneyFife]

Really @BarneyFife ?

What you do on a PUBLIC forum is none of my business?

As for the rest of your sin enabling reasons, I have a biblical sound answer for all it. But I will just move on.

You don’t read your Bible much to believe a Christian still sins.

My reasons for liking someone else's post are none of your business, no.

I have no desire to enable sin, and your suggestion that I do just indicates that you know nothing about me and you certainly have no idea as to how much Bible reading I do.

There is no excuse for sin. None! But it does happen (apparently not with you—Congatulations!).

We could deny it, I suppose, and just refuse to deal with it.

However, that might cause some problems for folks in the judgment.

Your manner of posting at times suggests that you could stand to show a little more maturity.

Of course, moving on would be a good choice as well, if you're only here to belittle and criticize those who don't hold your particular views.


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[Michiah-Imla]

My reasons for liking someone else's post are none of your business, no.

I never asked for a reason.

Your manner of posting at times suggests that you could stand to show a little more maturity.

“…rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13)

But you seem to be like these:

“…a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits” (Isaiah 30:9-10)

“Right” things are offensive to sinners.

…you're only here to belittle and criticize those who don't hold your particular views.

No, just those who are heretics to biblical doctrines.