But then again, is it not on the right road moving in the right direction?
How to debate the Bible: for beginners
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Yes! Insisting on telling the truth about myself can never be moving in the wrong direction. You don't fall from a low place, you fall from a high place.
How do we live the Good Christian Life?
The just by faith they live.
Faith in what? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to Him for righteousness. What did God tell me that I believed?
It is Finished. He is risen. In Him I rise.
I believe. It is finished in Jesus, and I am accepted in the Beloved, that is, Jesus.
In this moment, I know that God is here with me. In fact He created - me - for the purpose that I may receive His love, and in receiving His love, display His glory, and reflect His nature amidst a glorious and beautiful family.
There is nothing that can separate me from Him, ever. Nothing. I know this, because it has nothing to do with anything other than me believing Him. Nothing I do or don't do, can do, will do, nothing can ever increase or decrease my acceptance by God, because it is based entirely and solely on Jesus being accepted by God, and I am in Him, accepted in Him.
In this knowledge, I am sharing this moment with my Creator, Who has given me a new life to live, and that is the life I live. And in this is no sin.
Even if I do sin, and who is there that does not sin? Even if I do sin, Jesus is enough, and is cleansing me from all sin. But that is so rarely an issue if we walk like this. It's simply not in focus. As I maintain my focus on my Creator, my life simply IS what He wants it to be. His Spirit in me makes it so without any real effort on my part.
The effort comes in when the world or the flesh try to allure me with lies, or torment me with lies, and I have to endure without letting it weaken my trust in God, and the finished work of Christ.
What if I believe otherwise? What if I believe as so many teach, that God REQUIRES our obedience if we are to be saved?
Suddenly everything is different.
Suddenly the focus is not on God, enjoying Him, worshiping Him, simply filling my mind with the knowledge of His presence, that can only come once I've satisfied the requirement of "Works", and IF I'm not confident in the quantity or quality of my works, then I'm not confident in my relationship with Him. And I shut the door on His power because I think I'm not qualified to receive it.
The problem with believing our relationship with God is dependant on our being able to meet a standard of obedience to a list of behaviors and works is that Law incites sin.
Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
The flesh is hostile to God, and Law gives it a target for it's rebellion.
Not that only, but the Law does not in fact justify, it only condemns. And any and every violation brings with it fresh condemnation, further separation, it can be no other way. That's Law.
And the fact of the matter is we all know that. We all know that we commit sins, and that this makes us wrong. Like SBG said, one sin violates holiness.
Living under law buys into the lie that we are in fact under law. And if we deceive ourselves as though we could by ourselves improve our standing with God through keeping Law, we are immediately our own worst enemy, because we know we cannot!
But: If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.
The answer is not to try to improve our behavior, or even give it too much thought, that more takes our focus off of God, onto ourselves.
Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth, they grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace!
Grace to help in time of need. In Him there is no sin. And it is God, and not we ourselves, that makes this so.
Much love!
The just by faith they live.
Faith in what? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to Him for righteousness. What did God tell me that I believed?
It is Finished. He is risen. In Him I rise.
I believe. It is finished in Jesus, and I am accepted in the Beloved, that is, Jesus.
In this moment, I know that God is here with me. In fact He created - me - for the purpose that I may receive His love, and in receiving His love, display His glory, and reflect His nature amidst a glorious and beautiful family.
There is nothing that can separate me from Him, ever. Nothing. I know this, because it has nothing to do with anything other than me believing Him. Nothing I do or don't do, can do, will do, nothing can ever increase or decrease my acceptance by God, because it is based entirely and solely on Jesus being accepted by God, and I am in Him, accepted in Him.
In this knowledge, I am sharing this moment with my Creator, Who has given me a new life to live, and that is the life I live. And in this is no sin.
Even if I do sin, and who is there that does not sin? Even if I do sin, Jesus is enough, and is cleansing me from all sin. But that is so rarely an issue if we walk like this. It's simply not in focus. As I maintain my focus on my Creator, my life simply IS what He wants it to be. His Spirit in me makes it so without any real effort on my part.
The effort comes in when the world or the flesh try to allure me with lies, or torment me with lies, and I have to endure without letting it weaken my trust in God, and the finished work of Christ.
What if I believe otherwise? What if I believe as so many teach, that God REQUIRES our obedience if we are to be saved?
Suddenly everything is different.
Suddenly the focus is not on God, enjoying Him, worshiping Him, simply filling my mind with the knowledge of His presence, that can only come once I've satisfied the requirement of "Works", and IF I'm not confident in the quantity or quality of my works, then I'm not confident in my relationship with Him. And I shut the door on His power because I think I'm not qualified to receive it.
The problem with believing our relationship with God is dependant on our being able to meet a standard of obedience to a list of behaviors and works is that Law incites sin.
Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
The flesh is hostile to God, and Law gives it a target for it's rebellion.
Not that only, but the Law does not in fact justify, it only condemns. And any and every violation brings with it fresh condemnation, further separation, it can be no other way. That's Law.
And the fact of the matter is we all know that. We all know that we commit sins, and that this makes us wrong. Like SBG said, one sin violates holiness.
Living under law buys into the lie that we are in fact under law. And if we deceive ourselves as though we could by ourselves improve our standing with God through keeping Law, we are immediately our own worst enemy, because we know we cannot!
But: If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.
The answer is not to try to improve our behavior, or even give it too much thought, that more takes our focus off of God, onto ourselves.
Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth, they grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace!
Grace to help in time of need. In Him there is no sin. And it is God, and not we ourselves, that makes this so.
Much love!
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We may not be correct in the way we express it but there certainly is growth toward God as opposed to moving away from God. Look at the example of the flesh.
The flesh when it is properly fed grows physically toward maturity, but as we know there is more to maturity than getting physically bigger, stronger and more skillful. So it is with God. Becoming like God has to do with things besides the physical power to accomplish what men would call supernatural. The physical strength of Samson is not to be our goal. To be an effective Samson or Hercules or Superman should never be our goal. Rather to Love as God loves... that should be our goal. Do we love more than when we first began?
When God increases in us and we decrease in ourselves [John 3:30], which must be done through real love, [which God is], we will becoming like Him. Is that becoming holier? How holy is God? How holy can we be? How set apart from the world of men's ways can we be? As in all things with God the limit is not in Him, but in us.
As has been mentioned by others there are some on this forum who seemingly want to win a debate with little or no real concern about what it is that God wants them to do. When we are striving to do what God wants us to do, I believe, we are on the right approach.
Actually what we are to do is to continuously humble ourselves going down to the very lowest place and then allow God to lift us up again... if He so wills to an even higher place:
"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." Matt 23:12
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Lol. That's not good practice for being able to explain what you believe and why you believe it. That's more like waving a tract in my face haha!
Take from it what you will, or won't.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
What I take from it is that you think righteousness and holiness are the same thing because of what men have said that sounds right to you, but you have not searched the scriptures yourself concerning it. Then, rather than wondering if there might be something to learn, you post a link that agrees with your stance, learning mission aborted, heels dug in, already know you're correct, no need for any searching. A sluggard buries his hand in the dish; he is too lazy to bring it back to his mouth.
Maybe we will give ourselves a break and talk again in some weeks or months.
Perhaps you might read the link before being so harsh.
"When it comes to the actual deeds and attributes, all holy behavior will be righteous behavior and all righteous behavior will be holy behavior. That’s the first thing. But that doesn’t mean that the words are identical in meaning."
"The essential idea behind the concept of holiness is being separated from, distinct from, that which is ordinary or common."
"Righteousness has the basic idea of conforming to a standard. When that standard is conformed to, the behavior, the thinking, the feeling is right — it’s right."
It goes on. It's a pretty good article in my opinion, fwiw.
Much love!
Just wanted to point out that this isn't what was being presented to you. It does clarify the difference between these words.
Not really. He does say righteousness and holiness are not the same exact thing (which he then soon after turns into nonsense by saying if you are righteous, you are holy). Then he explains Gods holiness. Then He says when we are righteous, we are also holy, thereby doing a profane thing to holiness, which belongs to God alone. After he has taken seeming pains to explain how Gods holiness is not common And is very other, he then profanes Gods holiness.
So you don't believe holiness in men is possible. Then it makes sense that you wouldn't feel holy.
OK. I'm sorry if I've said anything wrong. I think I understand much better now.
Much love!
God makes men to be like He is. And then He tells us to live that way. And He begins to work in us so that we do. Our part is to know this is His work, and as we do, His work goes forward.
Much love!
Much love!
Holiness in men is impossible, yes. Holiness is in God alone. So it makes perfect sense that I don't feel holy and it makes no sense for a man to feel he is holy. Only God is holy and even if a man walks in Gods Spirit, and makes it there, he would still never say he himself was holy. Ever. He would not do it.
So God is just spinning His wheels when He makes the following statement:
1Pe 1:15, But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16, Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Not to mention the author of Hebrews calls the brethren holy in the following:
Heb 3:1, Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
And the Psalmist calls himself holy here:
Psa 86:2, Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
1Pe 1:15, But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16, Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Not to mention the author of Hebrews calls the brethren holy in the following:
Heb 3:1, Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
And the Psalmist calls himself holy here:
Psa 86:2, Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
Even the apostle, who Gods holiness was displayed through, did not say, you lied to me. He said, you lied to the Holy Spirit.
This is so foreign to me to use scripture in the manner you do so here. I guess I can only say...you went looking for proof that you are holy and you found proof that you are holy and I guess you can thank God now that you are holy and can prove yourself to be holy. Peter said be holy in your conversation, and so peter himself declared you are holy. God said be holy because I am holy, so God Himself declared you are holy. I don't know what I can say, you have done a bangup job of proving yourself to be holy, which is a splendid way to use scripture.
I was going to leave out psalm 86 because I think it's not a great translation, but I guess it doesn't matter. A PSALMIST called himself holy which is more proof that you yourself are holy.
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