How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[OzSpen]

Well, most people take 2 Cor 5:8 out of context because they do not expand on the verse. That's what you're suppose to do when interpreting scripture, but most don't. Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality, being clothed and being swallowed up. And 2 Cor 5:8 is right smack in the middle? That is no coincidence.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

When I said you'd provided no exposition at #127, I was referring to: 'I believe Phil 1:23 works off of 2 Cor 5:8, and is speaking of the anxious heart of Paul. If you expand 2 Cor 5:8, you will see it is talking about the first resurrection'.

You still have not provided an exposition of 2 Cor 5:8 in context. Your claim is that this refers to the first resurrection, but you have not provided hermeneutics in context to arrive at that conclusion. Imposing a view on a text is no substitute for an exegetical explanation in context.

Then all you do it cite 1 Cor 15:50-54 (NIV) and 2 Cor 5:1-10 (NIV). That proves nothing without exegesis.

 

[OzSpen]

Other scriptures make it clear the good go to heaven and the bad go to Hades. The story Christ told would not violate that scriptural fact. Therefore Lazarus was a good man and the rich man was not.

Talking about 'other scriptures' is a fruitless exercise when you provide zero evidence of such. I do not find your statement persuasive without the evidence to support it. I do wish you wouldn't make these kinds of innocuous statements that demonstrate nothing.

 

[ewq1938]

When I said you'd provided no exposition at #127, I was referring to: 'I believe Phil 1:23 works off of 2 Cor 5:8, and is speaking of the anxious heart of Paul. If you expand 2 Cor 5:8, you will see it is talking about the first resurrection'.

You still have not provided an exposition of 2 Cor 5:8 in context. Your claim is that this refers to the first resurrection, but you have not provided hermeneutics in context to arrive at that conclusion. Imposing a view on a text is no substitute for an exegetical explanation in context.

Then all you do it cite 1 Cor 15:50-54 (NIV) and 2 Cor 5:1-10 (NIV). That proves nothing without exegesis.

Exactly. They are employing something called a contextual fallacy, forcing a different context into the context of something else. 2 Cor 5:8 only speaks of dying and being with the Lord. No bodily resurrection is spoken of because it is not required nor needed to go to the Lord.

 

[OzSpen]

Hades is the grave where ALL people go.

Hades cannot mean the grave because the Greek word, mnemeion, is the word for grave, tomb in the NT. See Arndt & Gingrich's Greek-English lexicon (1957. Zondervan p. 526)

 

[Butch5]

I'm not saying that Jesus was influenced by Greek culture, but that the people He was teaching were....that is why He used Greek mythology in His parable.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus can only be a parable, to think this is a true story is just ridiculous.
Does anyone really think that the doomed in hell may speak to the blessed in Heaven? I don't know about you, but it would spoil Heaven for me if I had to keep listening to the cries of the damned wishing for a drop of water to cool their tongues. It wouldn't be long before I'd be begging God to let me help them.

And that, you see, is the problem. If a sinner like me would find it impossible to ignore the suffering of the damned....surely God, Who is Love, would not be able to bear it?

I just don't think some folks have actually thought it through...

I agree, it is a parable. What many miss is that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, not his disciples.The Scriptures say that He didn't speak to them except in parables. There is a point to His story, He is condemning them but they don't see it.

 

[ATP]

You still have not provided an exposition of 2 Cor 5:8 in context.

I have, you just refuse to expand on it and except the truth of that passage.

Hades cannot mean the grave because the Greek word, mnemeion, is the word for grave, tomb in the NT. See Arndt & Gingrich's Greek-English lexicon (1957. Zondervan p. 526)

What scripture are you looking at where Hades does not mean grave??

 

[ewq1938]

I agree, it is a parable. What many miss is that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, not his disciples.

Not so. He was talking to his disciples and the Pharisees overheard. Go back to the beginning of the chapter. He did not speak a parable, nor did he explain it as he does when he tells a parable. There is nothing to explain because it's literal and historical events about what happened to two men after they died. The implication is that the Pharisees are wicked and will end up in Hades and Christ's disciples would end up in Abraham's bosom, excluding Judas who would share the rich mans fate.

 

[ATP]

Not so. He was talking to his disciples and the Pharisees overheard. Go back to the beginning of the chapter. He did not speak a parable, nor did he explain it as he does when he tells a parable. There is nothing to explain because it's literal and historical events about what happened to two men after they died. The implication is that the Pharisees are wicked and will end up in Hades and Christ's disciples would end up in Abraham's bosom, excluding Judas who would share the rich mans fate.

Jesus was not talking to his disciples in Luke 16:19-31. wow.

 

[Butch5]

Not so. He was talking to his disciples and the Pharisees overheard. Go back to the beginning of the chapter. He did not speak a parable, nor did he explain it as he does when he tells a parable. There is nothing to explain because it's literal and historical events about what happened to two men after they died. The implication is that the Pharisees are wicked and will end up in Hades and Christ's disciples would end up in Abraham's bosom, excluding Judas who would share the rich mans fate.

Actually, it is parable.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (Lk. 16:14-21 KJV)

He was addressing the Pharisees. If we look at the details of the passage we can see who He is speaking of. They are rich, dressed in purple and fine linen, live in luxury, has five brothers Levi, from which tribe the priesthood came had five brothers. The rich man is the priesthood and Jesus is telling them that the priesthood is over, thus the rich man died. Notice just before He begins the parable He said, "the law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached". In other words, the priesthood is over. The priesthood, (the Law and Prophets) was until John. Also notice just before He began the parable He said, "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." Many people don't understand why He said this at that time. It seems like a random stated without context. However, it's not. It is a chastisement of the priesthood. In the last book of the OT we find God chastising the priesthood.


13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
(Mal. 2:13-16 KJV)


Then a few verses later we find this.

KJV Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 3:1 KJV)

Right after chastising the priesthood for their putting away there wives Malachi prophesies the coming of Christ. In the parable Jesus pulls together several OT passages that the Priesthood would be familiar with.

Here's another problem with a literal interpretation of the parable. In Scripture the place of fiery punishment is Gehenna, not Hades. Jesus is the one who says that the wicked will be cast into Gehenna. So, if He knew that the wicked are cast into Gehenna why would He say that the rich man was in Hades suffering in the flame? Hades and fire are not associated in Scripture. However, In the song of Moses, which the priesthood was well familiar with, Moses prophesied that they would turn away from God and God said that a fire would burn to the lowest hades, grave.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: (Deut. 32:20-26 KJV)

The only two places I found that speak of fire in Hades are Deu. 32 and Luke 16. the connection should be obvious. I'd bet it was to the priesthood. However, we can see from Paul's words that Deu 32 applies to Christ's day.

That this is in Christ's day can be see in Paul's quote of verse 21.


19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
(Rom. 10:19-21 KJV)

According to Paul the foolish nation is the Gentiles. So Paul applies the prophecy of Deu.32 to the Jews of Christ's day. That Jesus alludes to this passage in the parable shows that He is making application of it to the Rich man. In Deu 32 it is addressed to the Israel. The rich man is the Jewish priesthood.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, it is parable.

Nothing identifies it as a parable. As you can see, parables are identified as parables:

Mat_13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat_13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat_13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat_13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat_13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat_15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat_21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat_24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mar_4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar_4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mar_4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Mar_7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar_12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.
Mar_13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Luk_5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk_6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk_8:4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
Luk_8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk_8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk_12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk_12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Luk_13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk_14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Luk_15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk_18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Luk_18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk_19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Luk_20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
Luk_20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
Luk_21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Joh_10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus didn't use Greek mythology in his teachings.

The Hadean underworld is Greek mythology.
From "Dictionary.com" we get this definition:



Hades



[hey-deez]
Spell Syllables

• Word Origin

noun
1.
Classical Mythology.

1. the underworld inhabited by departed souls.
2. the god ruling the underworld; Pluto.

2.
(in the Revised Version of the New Testament) the abode or state ofthe dead.

3.
(often lowercase) hell.




Origin of HadesExpand



1590-1600

1590-1600



Related formsExpand

Hadean

[hey-dee-uh n, hey-dee-uh n] (Show IPA), adjective





Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2015.
Cite This Source
Examples from the Web for HadesExpand



Historical Examples

• 
  The artist was to be transported by them from hadean depths of despair toOlympian heights of rejoicing.
  Trusia Davis Brinton
  

​

British Dictionary definitions for HadesExpand

Hades

/ˈheɪdiːz/




noun
1.
(Greek myth)

1. the underworld abode of the souls of the dead
2. Pluto, the god of the underworld, brother of Zeus and husband ofPersephone

2.
(New Testament) the abode or state of the dead

3.
(often not capital) ( informal) hell





Derived Forms

Hadean (heɪˈdiːən ; ˈheɪdɪən) adjective






Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition
© William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2012
Cite This Source
Word Origin and History for HadesExpand

Hades



1590s, from Greek Haides, in Homer the name of the god of the underworld, of unknown origin. Perhaps literally "the invisible" [Watkins]. The name of the god transferred in later Greek writing to his kingdom. Related: Hadal (adj.), 1964; Hadean.




Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source
Hades in Culture Expand
Hades

[Roman name Pluto]
The Greek and Roman god of the underworld and the ruler of the dead. Also called Dis. The underworld itself was also known to the Greeks as Hades.
Note: The Greek and Roman underworld later became associated with the hell of Christianity, as in the expression “hot as Hades.”

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source
Hades in the Bible Expand

that which is out of sight, a Greek word used to denote the state or placeof the dead. All the dead alike go into this place. To be buried, to go downto the grave, to descend into hades, are equivalent expressions. In theLXX. this word is the usual rendering of the Hebrew sheol, the commonreceptacle of the departed (Gen. 42:38; Ps. 139:8; Hos. 13:14; Isa.14:9). This term is of comparatively rare occurrence in the Greek NewTestament. Our Lord speaks of Capernaum as being "brought down to hell"(hades), i.e., simply to the lowest debasement, (Matt. 11:23). It iscontemplated as a kind of kingdom which could never overturn thefoundation of Christ's kingdom (16:18), i.e., Christ's church can never die.In Luke 16:23 it is most distinctly associated with the doom and misery ofthe lost. In Acts 2:27-31 Peter quotes the LXX. version of Ps. 16:8-11,plainly for the purpose of proving our Lord's resurrection from the dead.David was left in the place of the dead, and his body saw corruption. Notso with Christ. According to ancient prophecy (Ps. 30:3) he was recalled tolife.

 

[Butch5]

Nothing identifies it as a parable. As you can see, parables are identified as parables:

Mat_13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat_13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat_13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat_13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat_13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat_15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat_21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat_24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mar_4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar_4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mar_4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Mar_7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar_12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.
Mar_13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Luk_5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk_6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk_8:4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
Luk_8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk_8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk_12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk_12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Luk_13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk_14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Luk_15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk_18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Luk_18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk_19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Luk_20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
Luk_20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
Luk_21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Joh_10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

That's an argument from silence, it's not valid. Just because He didn't say, "hear this parable" doesn't mean it's an actual event.

 

[Barrd]

If you Google "Hades" or "Hadean underworld" you will be taken to page after page of Greek mythology.

 

[ewq1938]

That's an argument from silence, it's not valid.

No, that's not what an argument from silence is. Nothing identifies the story as a parable as is the case with all biblical parables. It's a real story.

 

[ewq1938]

If you Google "Hades" or "Hadean underworld" you will be taken to page after page of Greek mythology.

there are two Hades. One is Greek, one is biblical/Jewish.

 

[Barrd]

I agree, it is a parable. What many miss is that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, not his disciples.The Scriptures say that He didn't speak to them except in parables. There is a point to His story, He is condemning them but they don't see it.

Oh, now that is a very good point, Butch.
Thank you for sharing that.

 

[Barrd]

there are two Hades. One is Greek, one is biblical/Jewish.

Then why does the Hades in the parable look so much like the Greek version?


I suspect you are making this up as you go along...

 

[Butch5]

Oh, now that is a very good point, Butch.
Thank you for sharing that.

You're welcome! I've elaborated on it in post 189. I've studied this subject in depth for almost two years now and have looked at many, many, passages of Scripture

 

[ATP]

Hardened heart Butch. We are living in the generation of the most illiterate in regards to scripture.

 

[Barrd]

You're welcome! I've elaborated on it in post 189. I've studied this subject in depth for almost two years now and have looked at many, many, passages of Scripture

Like those noble Bereans.
I am impressed.