How to know : if you are going to Hell.

[Beebster]

I think the relationship between God and the unsaved is radically different than God and the saved.

We should keep these two groups separate in the discussion.

Can you show me the radical difference?

Salvation of the unsaved is about God choosing, not free will.

Reward for obedience among the saved is about free will.

Please show me in scripture, someone you believe is saved, using their free will.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Please show me in scripture, someone you believe is saved, using their free will.

Thank you in advance.

Philippians 1:22​

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can you show me the radical difference?

Mmmm...

I would have thought it was obvious being transferred out of the Kingdom of Darkness into the Body of Christ and becoming part of the Priesthood of believers and being indwelled by Christ Himself was very different than the hopeless sinfull state of the unsaved.

 

[Beebster]

Philippians 1:22​

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

So Paul chooses. That’s not free will.

And is Paul saved at that time?

 

[Beebster]

Mmmm...

I would have thought it was obvious being transferred out of the Kingdom of Darkness into the Body of Christ and becoming part of the Priesthood of believers and being indwelled by Christ Himself was very different than the hopeless sinfull state of the unsaved.

I assume you believe that “being indwelled by Christ” means that Christ is in your heart.

In your opinion, what does that do for you?

And if Christ dwells in the heart of the believer who dwells in the heart of the non-believer?

Again, in your opinion, what does that do for the non-believer?

 

[Carl Emerson]

So Paul chooses. That’s not free will.

And is Paul saved at that time?

Please grace us with your definition of 'free will' to help the discussion be more meaningful.

Was Paul saved - of course.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I assume you believe that “being indwelled by Christ” means that Christ is in your heart.

In your opinion, what does that do for you?

And if Christ dwells in the heart of the believer who dwells in the heart of the non-believer?

Again, in your opinion, what does that do for the non-believer?

Jesus said the Father of unbelievers is Satan and they are in the Kingdom of Darkness.

This blinds unbelievers to the Truth of the Gospel and leaves them vulnerable to the forces of wickedness.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

You ask - What does it do for you to be indwelled...

Lets look a a couple of verses...

Jer 32:

38 They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

So the indwelling Spirit seals salvation.

This same spirit has seven aspects listed in Isaiah 11 and as seperate spirits in Revelation as follows...

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

So the indwelling Holy Spirit gives direct access to these seven resources to equip the believer to good works.

I wonder why you as a believer ask such fundamental questions - are you questioning your faith?

 

[Beebster]

Please grace us with your definition of 'free will' to help the discussion be more meaningful.

As I stated earlier:

We certainly have the ability to make choices, but every single choice we make has a cause and if it has a cause it is not free.

We do have a will, however our will is also driven by cause and circumstance which means that it is not free either.

As much as we'd like to believe that we are in control we are not; God is.

Was Paul saved - of course.

When exactly was Paul saved?

 

[Carl Emerson]

As I stated earlier:

We certainly have the ability to make choices, but every single choice we make has a cause and if it has a cause it is not free.

We do have a will, however our will is also driven by cause and circumstance which means that it is not free either.

As much as we'd like to believe that we are in control we are not; God is.

When exactly was Paul saved?

We may be on the same page...

What you say sounds similar to 'Free will within bounds'. This sounds like a contradiction but we do make choices within boundaries God has set.

Interestingly the well known verse "without a vision the people perish" in the Hebrew the word 'vision' is a fence.

Without boundaries we miss out on the corporate co-ordinated effort that results in survival.

 

[Carl Emerson]

When exactly was Paul saved?

Scripture doesn't specify this but it seems at the time of His encounter on the road. Belief is needed for rebirth and at that point he believed.

 

[Beebster]

We may be on the same page...

Not quite, but maybe soon God willing.

What you say sounds similar to 'Free will within bounds'. This sounds like a contradiction but we do make choices within boundaries God has set.

That is a contradiction. It's the same as saying "limited free will."

If it is free it can't have boundaries or limits. Likewise , if limited it can't be free.

I believe man has a will. I believe we can make choices.

The only reason to believe we have free will or free choice is to ultimately condemn or reward each other; to release God from his responsibility to save.

God is responsible for his creation and he will redeem all.

 

[Beebster]

Scripture doesn't specify this but it seems at the time of His encounter on the road. Belief is needed for rebirth and at that point he believed.

Converted yes; saved no.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he TREMBLING and ASTONISHED said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (Act 9:3-6)

That is conversion but salvation is a process: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Also notice:

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. (Act 9:1-2)

Paul's will (not free) was to lead "the disciples of the Lord" to slaughter.

His will (not free) was changed in a matter of minutes:

And he TREMBLING and ASTONISHED said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul will be saved when all of God's Elect are saved:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

Until then he is sealed.

So the indwelling Spirit seals salvation.

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: (that is a process)
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, SHALL GIVE ME at THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2Ti 4:6-8)

That flies in the face of those that boast and claim that they are already saved.

Peace.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Converted yes; saved no.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he TREMBLING and ASTONISHED said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (Act 9:3-6)

That is conversion but salvation is a process: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Also notice:

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. (Act 9:1-2)

Paul's will (not free) was to lead "the disciples of the Lord" to slaughter.

His will (not free) was changed in a matter of minutes:

And he TREMBLING and ASTONISHED said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul will be saved when all of God's Elect are saved:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

Until then he is sealed.



For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: (that is a process)
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, SHALL GIVE ME at THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2Ti 4:6-8)

That flies in the face of those that boast and claim that they are already saved.

Peace.

Ok to be on the same page then we will have to modify a few Scriptures - for example...

Jude 24-25​

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1 John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 2
25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

Jer 32:40
38 They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39 and I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

I could go on...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Converted yes; saved no.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he TREMBLING and ASTONISHED said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (Act 9:3-6)

That is conversion but salvation is a process: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Also notice:

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. (Act 9:1-2)

Paul's will (not free) was to lead "the disciples of the Lord" to slaughter.

His will (not free) was changed in a matter of minutes:

And he TREMBLING and ASTONISHED said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul will be saved when all of God's Elect are saved:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

Until then he is sealed.



For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: (that is a process)
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, SHALL GIVE ME at THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2Ti 4:6-8)

That flies in the face of those that boast and claim that they are already saved.

Peace.

I think maybe Status and Condition are being somewhat c o n f u s e d... ( spelled it that way to stop the smiley appearing)

Being Born again is an adoption into the Family of God. A transference from the Kingdom Darkness to the Kingdom of Light.

However that is when or regeneration starts and is not completed until resurrection.

The adoption is irreversible so Eternal Life is guaranteed, but the degree to which we obey in this life, determines our status in eternity and the rewards that go with it.

The way you use the term 'Saved' seems to refer to the completion of regeneration rather than the fact of sonship.