What is a logical deductive step? This is the 3rd and the last time I have asked. I prefer to argue with people who can think and write logically.
Hyper-grace: then and now
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Here is the thing..
Had you not posted a link that says.. "repenting is not a one time event", then your Thread could be perceived as just "taking a look at"...
So, there it is...
See, there is no such thing, as Hyper Grace, or OSAS....
These Titles are created by Cross Rejecting Legalists.
Listen..
There is GRACE and there is Legalism..
There is Salvation, and there is WORKS.
Legalism,= Legalist's teach that Grace is "license to sin" because they dont understand God's Grace, at all.
These people teach that "you are to live in a state of repentance", when God says you are to live in God's Grace.
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We’ve already been down this road,Tony,I noticed you never answered my question about what it means to be Born Again of imperishable seed and how would I know that I have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?
Would you agree that we have been gifted spiritual eyes and ears as soon as we become Born Again?
Commentary...
What does he who has eyes to see and ears to hear mean?
We need greater spiritual light and power. We need eyes to see more clearly the Savior working in our lives and ears to hear His voice more deeply in our hearts.
How can the Holy Spirit indwell your spirit if you are still a sinner?
A Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed.
I am in the righteousness of Christ , when I became Born Again.....my sin has been forgiven when I was brought to repentance by God...he see my sin no more it’s buried in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
King James Version
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.2 Corinthians 5
King James Version
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Romans 6
King James Version
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
A Born Again has eternal life ...because they have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....by the “ Living “ word of God.....we are also led through scripture by the Spirit Tony...not by man!
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Behold
Well-Known Member
I told you before.
I can teach you, but i can't learn it for you, @TonyChanYT
Get a Bible, (not another commentary) and no online site.
And stay away from the NIV .
Do not use that book.
And Study these...
Romans 3:21-28
2nd Corinthians 5:19
John 3:16
Romans 4:8
Hebrews 13:9
Exactly....a Born Again has been Born Again by The Spirit Of God...Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...
Only the Spirit can testify that with our spirit........man can’t make themselves Born Of The Spirit..
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I think we need to see it for what it is
John said “if we”. He is includes himself in the equation. So we can determine that he is talking to the church.
John first said, if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves. I believe this is self explanatory. If we as believers claim to be sinless, we are decieved.
Second, he states in effect when we do sin, if we confess (I like to use the term to name our sin, confess them acknowledge them) he is faithful and he is just, and he will forgive (Again, I like to use the term forget) and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I see this in the same mold when the word says to confess our sins to one another, that their be healing. If we deny our sin (claim we are sinless) we can not be healed from the sin that we have, if we are sinning (which we are) and do not confess them, how can we get help with those sin areas? How can we be healed from those sins? It is very hard being a closet sinner (i know. I was one out of fear)
finally he says if we say we have never sinned, we make God out to be a liar.
The main point is, if someone (like @Ritajanice and the many others here, claim to be sinless. As john said, they are decieved, and there is no truth in them.
John 1: 9 is not the gospel.. it is the help for a child of God who is still sinning, and being asked to go to the throne of grace and confess that sin and not hide that sin in our heart, which is in effect denial
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Amen!!...as soon as I became Born Of The Spirit,a supernatural spiritual rebirth...as a sinner I was under the law, now I’m under Grace..Praise God.
Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.
Of course this body at one time was in sin and darkness alienated from God....after the spiritual rebirth we are in the righteousness of Christ.
God no longer sees any sin in us..because of the blood of the Lamb and the Spiritual “ Living “ word of God, which testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Let me show you what you dont realize.. @Eternally Grateful .
The Apostles, were PREACHERS...
THey Preached to lost people.
Understand?
So, there are times when you read then doing this..... @Eternally Grateful
And perhaps, you've never been to a Church service, where the Preacher is giving an "alter Call".
So, when a Preacher (Apostle)(Evangelist)(*Missionary) (Teacher) is trying to lead people to Christ...
They will say......
"We"..... but they mean YOU.
For example... "If We willfully sin"..... is an example of an Apostle in Hebrews talking to Christ Rejectors.
He says "we" but he means "THEM".
So, when a preacher is talking to a group, He will be inclusive, and say..>"We all need to be born again", and in Fact He was born again 56 yrs ago.
He doesn't need to be born again.........THEY DO... but he says "WE"..
AND sometimes, when you deal with people who are Atheist's or a Gnostic, .. they will say...."there is no such thing as sin.
A Scientologist will tell you that..
So, you would say...'Now, listen if we say WE have no sin"..
See that?
So, the Apostle John does not have sin........ THEY have it.......but he says "WE" because that is what Preachers do, when leading people to Christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes..
Jesus said to us .. "YOU must be born again"
And we can't do that....
Only God can..
= The Holy Spirit births the BELIEVER, into the Spirit of God, as "born .., again".. Spiritually.
This is to become "in Christ"... 'One with God"...,. "a New Creation"... = Son/Daughter of God.
Exactly...I understand what you are saying, because its being preached in the Spirit/ by the Spirit who indwells you....
Makes the enemy very mad...again, the carnal mind wouldn’t understand what you are saying either.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So your telling me the whole of the NT is spoken to lost people?
I love you my brother, but sometimes your just out there
Your Wrong.
John had sin, It is true that God does not see his sin, or count it against him. But John had sin,
are you telling me now you think your sinless too?
Whats the purpose of confessing our trespasses or sins to one another if we have no sin?
James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much
Is James talking to non believers?
I grew up baptist. I have been to many an alter call. In fact, I was BORN AGAIN at one of those alter calls.
so please do not ty to tell me what I have and have not done or do or do not know
If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves.. John is talking to you. He is talking to me, He is talking to everyone in the church. The only one of these three things that he is speaking to non believers in the church is the last one.. Those who claim they are saved, but at the same time claim they have never sinned..
I do not know any believers (true) who claim they have never sinned..
ps. Look at my post. I said he is talking to THE CHURCH.. Not everyone in the church is saved. But sadly many in the church (believers and non believers) are decieved in thinking they have arrived at spiritual maturity and are conditionall perfectly sanctified (without sin)
Its one thing to believe You are perfected forever (positionally sanctified in christ.
These people are resting in God. Not looking t the law or at their sin, But acknowledging when they do sin
Its a much different thing to say you are perfectly sanctified already in real life (no sin)
These people are decieved if they are saved. And are in danger of stunting their personal and spiritual growth. And bringing other people down with them
Behold
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Ears hear Spiritual teaching.
"Those who have EARS to hear".
You have to be born again to have those "ears", and that ability to "Hear".
A.) That is Spiritual DISCERNMENT,
The inner eyes that a born again person has, become enlightened when they hear LIGHT being taught.
"LIght: = "Truth" = Revealed by the Holy Spirit in the "inner man".
Those who dont have those ears, hear Truth as Noise.
They have no inner connection to it.
Zero.
Exactly, we have those spiritual eyes and ears imo/ belief...and agree with the rest of your post
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So how does one come to faith in the gospel. If they have to be born again first?
How can they understand the word in order to do as the tax collector and get on their knees crying out to God for mercy? If they can not hear the gospel message?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! In Philippians 2:12, Paul said to "work out" your salvation (not to be confused with) "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not in order to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.
We are brought to initially believe in Jesus by God..once that happens we then are Born Again and given the gift of Faith to believe, why, because we have been Born Again...you cannot believe or have Faith in Jesus/ God, without the witness of the Holy Spirit...witnessing Gods truth to our spirit...
Human belief is just that, it is void of the Living word of Gods Spirit.
Praise God for his heart revelation that can never be erased from our heart/ spirit as we have been Born Again of imperishable seed...he sees our sin no more...
God given faith will unquestionably endure to the end, why, because the word of God says so....
Interesting commentary below.
Saving faith is distinct from every works-righteous system because it isn’t the result of human effort. In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is “not of [ourselves], it is the gift of God.” Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place, we do not have adequate power or resources. Moreover, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul’s emphasis in Ephesians 2:8 is that even faith does not come from us apart from God’s giving it. Human effort has nothing to do with it (cf.Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), and thus no one should boast, as if he contributed any part.
Spiritually dead, we were helpless until God intervened to quicken us: “Even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (Ephesians 2:5). Faith is an integral part of the gift His grace bestowed on us.
Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). Acts 3:16 speaks of “the faith which comes through Him.” Philippians 1:29 says, “To you it has been granted for Christ’s sake . . . to believe in Him.” And Peter wrote to fellow believers as “those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours” (2 Peter 1:1).
How do we know that faith is God’s gift? Left to ourselves, no one would ever believe: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11). “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Romans 9:16). God draws the sinner to Christ and gives the ability to believe. Without that divinely generated faith, one cannot understand and approach the Savior. “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14). That is precisely why when Peter affirmed his faith in Christ as the Son of God, Jesus told him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Faith is graciously given to believers by God himself.
As a divine gift, faith is neither transient nor impotent. It has an abiding quality that guarantees that it will endure to the end. The familiar words of Habakkuk 2:4, “The righteous will live by his faith” (cf. Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38), speak not of a momentary act of believing, but of a living, enduring trust in God. Hebrews 3:14 emphasizes the permanence of genuine faith. Its very durability is proof of its reality: “We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” The faith God gives can never evaporate. And the work of salvation cannot ultimately be thwarted (cf. John 10:27–29). In Philippians 1:6 Paul wrote, “I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:8; Colossians 1:22–23).
For those reasons, saving faith is nothing like the fickleness of wavering human belief. It is as enduring and unchanging as the God who grants it.
Human belief is just that, it is void of the Living word of Gods Spirit.
Praise God for his heart revelation that can never be erased from our heart/ spirit as we have been Born Again of imperishable seed...he sees our sin no more...
God given faith will unquestionably endure to the end, why, because the word of God says so....
Interesting commentary below.
Saving faith is distinct from every works-righteous system because it isn’t the result of human effort. In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is “not of [ourselves], it is the gift of God.” Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place, we do not have adequate power or resources. Moreover, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul’s emphasis in Ephesians 2:8 is that even faith does not come from us apart from God’s giving it. Human effort has nothing to do with it (cf.Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), and thus no one should boast, as if he contributed any part.
Spiritually dead, we were helpless until God intervened to quicken us: “Even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (Ephesians 2:5). Faith is an integral part of the gift His grace bestowed on us.
Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). Acts 3:16 speaks of “the faith which comes through Him.” Philippians 1:29 says, “To you it has been granted for Christ’s sake . . . to believe in Him.” And Peter wrote to fellow believers as “those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours” (2 Peter 1:1).
How do we know that faith is God’s gift? Left to ourselves, no one would ever believe: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11). “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Romans 9:16). God draws the sinner to Christ and gives the ability to believe. Without that divinely generated faith, one cannot understand and approach the Savior. “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14). That is precisely why when Peter affirmed his faith in Christ as the Son of God, Jesus told him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Faith is graciously given to believers by God himself.
As a divine gift, faith is neither transient nor impotent. It has an abiding quality that guarantees that it will endure to the end. The familiar words of Habakkuk 2:4, “The righteous will live by his faith” (cf. Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38), speak not of a momentary act of believing, but of a living, enduring trust in God. Hebrews 3:14 emphasizes the permanence of genuine faith. Its very durability is proof of its reality: “We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” The faith God gives can never evaporate. And the work of salvation cannot ultimately be thwarted (cf. John 10:27–29). In Philippians 1:6 Paul wrote, “I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:8; Colossians 1:22–23).
For those reasons, saving faith is nothing like the fickleness of wavering human belief. It is as enduring and unchanging as the God who grants it.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
It’s amazing people thin they can earn salvation. Of any type
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Who said anything about human belief? It’s not human. It is who the faith is placed in that matters
If my faith is placed in self or in another human. Then this is a flawed faith
If my faith is based on and in Gid then it is spiritual faith
It’s not a work because I am not trusting in what I do to save Myself. I am trusting in the work of God, who drew me to himself who showed
Me My sin and my guilt who showed me his love based on his sacrifice as his work On the cross that provided a means for me to be saved. My faith is in this work. Hence it’s not a work or human faith
God does not make you born again so you can trust him. That basically is him forcing you to believe and forcing the non elect to not believe. This thinking is detrimental to the character of God
It’s sad you don’t ignore people who do not agree with you. But that has been your character since you have been here people kept warning me but I stood up for you. And this is how I am repayed
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