Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Because you don’t believe. You read the Bible like a phone book if it is not interpreted by the Holy Spirit. People look for reasons NOT to believe instead of looking for reasons to believe.
Right. A self evident truth is not an assumption.“In trying to refute something that is axiomatic, you demonstrate its validity.” This is fallacious since it is tautological at best. It’s like saying, “A beginner who just started.”
View attachment 24815
‘Accepted’ truth. ‘General’ truth. But not Truth.
View attachment 24817
I fully disagree. This is not about emotions and you are not feminine to be a Christian. The effeminate will not make it into heaven. I choose not to burn.I’ve heard the, “Interpreted by Holy Spirit” argument before and I’ve come to the conclusion that that’s synonymous with the Bible speaking to you emotionally. While emotions are good and all (as we all have them), we also have a rational side. I’m not willing to sacrifice my reason for emotions to feel better about myself. To me the Bible has merit as I’ve said many times…I just don’t agree with it being the gospel of truth, or word of god. In my eyes, the more religious one is…the more emotional they are. Emotions by default are irrational. To me, emotions follow rationality, not the other way around. You feel better better but what is actually being done? Religious folks rely on praying a lot. Religion isn't just potentially harmful in the way that it keeps its adherents from receiving useful medical treatement, it's also potentially harmful in the way that it allows its adherents to do effectively nothing to help others even when they're trying to. A good example of this phenomenon is encapsulated in the clichéd and nauseating phrase, 'Thoughts & prayers'. I'm sure they want to help...but only if their prayers actually worked. The danger of prayer comes from the propensity to convince those praying that they're benefitting those they're praying for. Whenever there's a disaster or attack, all over social media we see the assurance of everyone's prayers. Sure some people who pray also help in tangible ways but the majority of them believe that praying alone is sufficient. Like many other atheist activists have said many times, "If all those people realize their prayers don't work, perhaps we'd see a massive increase in charitable giving and a noticeable decrease in human suffering.”
My religious family members believe in praying and give credit to prayer for things going our way. I however, have to constantly remind them that I achieved what I achieved without any prayer whatsoever. I have no time to pray, because it’s all being consumed by my effort to achieve whatever I’m trying to achieve.
I have never heard of anyone being attached to the Bible purely out of reason. There’s always some emotion involved and the reason is only there to justify it.
Every time I’m at the table with the wife and family, I’m the only one whose that voice of reason. I don’t even try to push atheism or question the existence of god, but my god (no pun intended), do they constantly go on about how god this and god that. Maybe you succeeded because you worked your ass off, not because of god. That’s the thing, the religious are very ‘un’individualistic. God is always in control for them..heaven forbid you take credit for any success. We can’t work through a problem without god being involved. And I see this manifesting in the form of non practicality way too often. It’s a lot easier to shift responsibility onto a devil or a god than to take it upon yourself. And while politically they agree with me on many things, they just don’t quite get how much I really value absolute freedom..including freedom from any religion or god.
This study here shows that women are more likely the be affiliated with a religion than men:
1. Women more likely than men to affiliate with a religion
68% of atheists are men in the U.S. alone compared to 32% women.
Religion in essence, is very feminine in nature.
I’ve heard the, “Interpreted by Holy Spirit” argument before and I’ve come to the conclusion that that’s synonymous with the Bible speaking to you emotionally.
I’m not willing to sacrifice my reason for emotions to feel better about myself.
This study here shows that women are more likely the be affiliated with a religion than men:
1. Women more likely than men to affiliate with a religion
68% of atheists are men in the U.S. alone compared to 32% women.
Religion in essence, is very feminine in nature.
Religion isn't just potentially harmful in the way that it keeps its adherents from receiving useful medical treatement, it's also potentially harmful in the way that it allows its adherents to do effectively nothing to help others even when they're trying to. A good example of this phenomenon is encapsulated in the clichéd and nauseating phrase, 'Thoughts & prayers'. I'm sure they want to help...but only if their prayers actually worked. The danger of prayer comes from the propensity to convince those praying that they're benefitting those they're praying for.
Right. A self evident truth is not an assumption.
Wrong conclusion but I understand it based on the available evidence you are able to draw from.
Although profoundly disturbing to a Cause and Effect believer, the Bible is clear that God choses people for his reasons that are not clear to us. I can tell you of my supernatural experiences. Direct communication from a super power of a being. I did not hear a voice. It was like telepathy.
I don't believe many of the chosen have such experiences. I was like you and then I was touched and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It changed my life as it would anyone. See Paul on the road to Damascus. See Martin Luther in the thunder storm.
What are you willing to sacrifice to feel better about yourself?
Your god, your idol is rationality. Have you ever considered that women are more spiritual than men BECAUSE they are more emotionally connected? the Bible says he made them male and female, a balance between rationality and emotion. Humans are not merely robots, programmed with reasoning capability. Instead if AI, we are not BI, biological intelligence. My Pastor pointed out that our God is an emotional God.
Like you, I have contempt for people who are emotionally driven. However, there is balance and the question is why do men tend to be the emotionally constipated sex? Suppressing emotion is a coping mechanism. Men's failure to effectively deal with their emotions is why they are the ones who most often criminally blow. 10 of 11 people in prison are men. Most lack the love of a devoted father, providing daily doses of discipline, including the discipline of how to positively handle negative emotions.
Appeal to Authority. Who are mathematicians to have special knowledge unavailable to the masses?The majority of mathematicians will tell you an axiom is an assumption.
Appeal to Authority. Who are mathematicians to have special knowledge unavailable to the masses?
Mathematicians can say all they want that 1=1 is an assumption. Common sense and anyone fully trained in having a philosophy of life recognize it as the axiomatic Law of Identity.
Scientists are so corrupt in their concept formation, they fail to recognize an adjective does not change the noun. There are not 8 women in the room and 3 blonde woman in the room; there are 11 women in the room, 3 of which are blond. The same with planets in our solar system and transgender men.
If you ideas of the universe, of reality are wrong, your interpretation of your senses will be wrong.
You could be misusing the logical fallacy of ‘appeal to authority’ to discredit those who are qualified. Immediately after you stated, “Common sense and anyone fully trained in philosophy”…common sense can be an appeal to popularity. Anyways, mathematicians really don’t have special knowledge unavailable to the masses as the masses can also learn it themselves. What they have is years of study that even you or I could put in if we wanted to. As I’ve said before, axioms are assumptions since they rise out of human observation which is limited. You haven’t said anything about human observation being limited yet purport that axioms are absolute truth.
Common sense also varies widely and it’s not as common as you might think. All ideas of the universe are equally valid as there is no idea in particular that is correct while the others are wrong. If we talk about ideas in the context of utility, then that changes things. This is no different than a group of people belonging to a religion who believe that only their religion is the correct one.
All ideas of the universe are equally valid as there is no idea in particular that is correct while the others are wrong?
John 14:6a, "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life."
John 8:31=32, " Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Notice that "truth" is singular!
Have you ever considered that women are more spiritual than men BECAUSE they are more emotionally connected?
Even though the majority of innovations and good business came from Christian nations, it does not mean that Christianity is a direct cause. Correlation≠causation. The U.S. for example is not even a Christian nation
The liberals ask me how the hell are you conservative and don’t believe in god? The conservatives ask me, how the hell do you not believe in God, but aren’t liberal? I get into it with the Christians, the atheists, the liberals, and the conservatives. People say ohhh don’t let labels affect you. Those labels mean a lot. If you are Christian in the fundamental, that massively affects your political stance. And if you are not a Christian, then your political stance on issues will be seen as very unChristian by the typical Christians.
I consider myself spiritual, but not religious. I was raised Christian Orthodox but I never cared to take it seriously.
It’s just funny because I have a lot of Christian values but I never liked the idea of not being my own ultimate authority which I guess allows me to hold many unChristian values at the exact same time. It’s tough. I consider the other alternative of someone like myself to be a liberal Christian…that too is another conundrum.
Can anyone offer any insight into this?
John 14:6 is a favorite among fundamentalists and is used to justify that only Jesus is the way. Jesus also spoke in parables, he could have meant something else by that phrase. The fundamentalists think they are being literal when in fact they could just be imposing their own interpretation of what was said. There is nothing to suggest that they are not the ones taking it out of context. The Quran does this as well in 3:19 where exclusivity is claimed in much the same way as John 14:6 does. "Behold, the only [true] religion in the sight of God is [man's] self-surrender unto Him; and those who were vouchsafed revelation aforetime took, out of mutual jealousy, to divergent views [on this point] only after knowledge [thereof] had come unto them. But as for him who denies the truth of God's messages-behold, God is swift in reckoning."
Another verse from the Quran 22:62 which claims exclusivity:
"That is because Allah is the Truth, and that which they call upon other than Him is falsehood, and because Allah is the Most High, the Grand."
Exclusivity is also claimed within Christianity by different churches. For example the two largest Christian branches, the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church both claim to be the "one true church" and that "outside the true Church, there is no salvation." All of this is no different than the cliques in a high school cafeteria where each one considers itself to be the only proper one among the others.
To me personally, all religions are cults and they all started out as such back when the norm was different. They were all counter-cultural at one point, just like your typical cult. Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism, it was completely counter cultural to the Roman Empire at the time when paganism was the norm, up until Constantin finally made Christianity the main religion of Rome.
There is a lot of talk in the U.S. among Christians saying that they are being persecuted. They are not being persecuted, they are being held accountable for not following Jesus' teachings in the sense of being politically conservative. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jesus is not compatible with the GOP. GOP would pull its lip over its own head if Jesus could be president. It's like being extremely liberal while also being anti-globalist.
You mention needing or wanting evidence for Yahweh. There is not really that much evidence. There is essentially no evidence for the supernatural. There is also no evidence that if there is a god the god is Yahweh. I’m to tired to dig deeply into it but as a far left winged Christian who accepts general scientific consensus. Such as I accept evolution and so on.
One thing to be aware of that Christianity does not just belong to conservatives, or those who reject science and so on. Many people from all over are Christians.
you mentioned the burden of proof. Science can’t do that. Science can’t detect the supernatural. History can’t prove the supernatural and no matter what the argument is, statistically a natural answer will be more likely than a supernatural one but we also have to consider things such as how many unlikely coincidences can there be.
for me my faith finds peace in these spots.
1. we see faith healing many people.
2. we see genes that support religious beliefs. Some science indicates that religious beliefs are very similar to feelings in how they evolved. It encourages unity far more than break it.
3. We have a major gap what started everything.
Ultimately it comes down to faith though. Nothing can make faith. It’s either there or not in my experience. Someone either feels the pulling of the Holy Spirit and are open to it or they are not.
I’m not saying Christianity is a lie. You are asking me to be an anti-theist here, which I am not. I cannot prove that Christianity is a lie or any religion for that matter. But, claims of there being a creator are also just as unsubstantiated as someone claiming there is absolutely no god. This is why all of this is simply called ‘religion’.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Just remember it’s mostly just in USA among Protestants that’s most Christian’s are alt right. The conservative Christian movement is driving many away from faith towards atheism. The majority of atheists right now were conservative Christian’s at one point and moved away from it all. Liberal Christian’s are fighting hard to correct that. Outside of USA liberal Christian’s make up a giant portion. Even in America the liberal Christians are growing. A large portion of liberal agnostics that were conservative Christians that left the faith during college years come back later on as liberal christians also.I know science can’t detect the supernatural. But yet many people act as if the supernatural is there no matter what, so the burden of proof is on them. The whole point is to get them to admit that their entire premise is faith based because a great deal of them talk about how ‘there’s so much evidence of the supernatural.’ If there is so much overwhelming evidence, then let’s take a look at that evidence. Eventually none of the ‘evidence’ stands scrutiny so they have been falsely claiming there is evidence all along.
Even though Christianity doesn’t belong to conservatives, it’s statistically more prevalent among conservatives. The evangelicals for example vote republican for the most part.
U.S. religious groups and their political leanings
I generally agree with all 3 of your points and somewhat with the 2nd concerning unity. Religions unite people just as much as they divide. Christians for the most part are united around a central figure: Jesus. The Muslims too except around Muhammed. Now put them both in the same room and see what happens. And with faith healing people, I wouldn’t bash someone who has cancer who feels better because they believe. However, they could also be healing due to their belief decreasing their hormonal stress and there’s many other ways to decrease stress other than belief in a deity. I can choose to believe in a flying unicorn giving me peace until I heal, but that does not mean the flying unicorn is real.