I have a question that remains unanswered:

[GEN2REV]

I am not ignoring v14 but responding to the claim v1 proves Jesus is God. Verse 20:31 proves the entire Gospel of John was written to prove Jesus is the Messiah, the chosen son of God. This logically means that NOTHING John wrote is meant to prove anything else. All the Gospels testify to the ministry of the man Jesus.

Getting back to verse 14, all the prophets speak the words of God. Jesus is not unique in this manner. Verse 14 tells us God fulfilled his promise in Deuteronomy 18:15-18. Nothing more.

The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book in the entire collection of anti-trinitarian books. Jesus, himself, explicitly says his father is the one true God in 17:3. In John 20:17, the resurrected Jesus tells us he has not yet gone to his God. Revelations 1:1 tells us God granted the resurrected man Jesus a revelation. I believe Jesus. Why don't you?

If it walks like a duck ...

Classic Trinitarian Appeal to Diversion. This thread is not about Revelation but Jesus admitting his limited knowledge to another, which proves he is not the Supreme Being.

See thread on Case Against Trinitarianism.

This is another trinitarian tactic; synthesize doctrine by piecing together bits of Scripture. Any doctrine can be 'supported' that way. The word of God is of God, not the flesh who utters it. Simple.

I think I know what's going on here.

You have no idea what a trinitarian is. I KNEW there was something that wasn't adding up.

No problem, buddy. We all need time to learn all this stuff. It can be a lot, I get it.

Keep at it. You're doing great.

God bless.

 

[Wrangler]

Hopefully, we need not argue that Jesus is in heaven presently.

Sure. The WHERE is not in question. The HOW seems to be. I thought you were claiming Jesus is presently disembodied, not in his flesh but Spirit?

NOTE: I try to take bit size pieces of posts while others write complicated dissertations. This bit size approach necessarily leans to more posts but I think, each one is easier to understand. YMMV.

 

[Wrangler]

His body is not corruptible flesh like ours anymore, it is a celestial (heavenly) body.

You know, you are hitting on one of the biggest misconceptions me and my family of origin had growing up. It is my understanding that most people won't go to heaven. We and the Earth will be remade, redeemed, into a glorified new creation. Is that not your understanding?

 

[Wrangler]

You have no idea what a trinitarian is.

That's laughable. While trinitarianism professes a 3is1 God, the real passion - as this thread shows - is for the man-is-God thesis.

You may not be one variant of this doctrine but you certainly espouse the doctrine whether you realize it or not. Labels don't matter much to me. Call it what you will. The aroma is the same.

 

[Bob Estey]

Many people teach that Jesus is God, fact is he either is or isn't. So my question is, if Jesus is God then did he lie in these verses?:
Mr 10:40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared

Mr 13:32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I do not believe Jesus lied, and likely you do not either, so how does one who believes Jesus is God, explain this?

I believe one of the purposes of Jesus was to set an example for us. Therefore, he couldn't say, "I am God."

 

[BarneyFife]

I believe one of the purposes of Jesus was to set an example for us. Therefore, he couldn't say, "I am God."

Do you mean that even if He were God, he couldn't say so?

 

[BarneyFife]

That's laughable. While trinitarianism professes a 3is1 God, the real passion - as this thread shows - is for the man-is-God thesis.

So do you believe that if one holds the triune God doctrine, what they really want is to be God?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus is simply not equal to Jehovah, no spirit being or human or any other of the creation is ever referred to as being equal to God on any level. Jesus and Jehovah are both spirit beings however, and Jesus has the special privilege of being the beginning of His creation, being created solely by Jehovah's hands as nothing else existed.

Then you have not read much of Gods Word!

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

This is not the pharise3ss speaking- but JOhn under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit saying Jesus is equal weith His Father.

And Jesus is called Yahweh as well:

Is. 44:
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Lord in both cases is Yahweh.
Yahweh 1 King of Israel
Yahweh 2 Redeemr and yahweh of hosts.

These are unalterable biblical facts Just like
God siad let US make man inour image and likeness So Elohim (plural) made man in the image of God

Jesus is not equal to His Father in authority , but He is equal to His Father in divinity. That is th eBible whether you accept it or not. You have to reinterpret these simple passages to deny these simple truths.

 

[Bob Estey]

Do you mean that even if He were God, he couldn't say so?

That would be up to him. There are things called "secrets."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

First, there is only one God, not 2 or 3 or any other number. Second, Jesus' divinity is not a fact. Jesus died.

The phyhsical body of Jesus died, But His divine spirit did not. It went down to Abrahams bosom/paradise and preached the victory He gained for all the righteous dead from Adam till His ascension.

Just because the eternal triune Godhead decided to send Jesus to become man does not take away from the fact that He was divine for eternity past.

god can do as He wishes, and this was th ewill fo the Father to send God the son down to earth, take on humanity and die for th esins of the world.

Jesus did not sin either, yet God made Him sin and punished our sin in the body of Jesus for our behalf also!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus is simply not equal to Jehovah, no spirit being or human or any other of the creation is ever referred to as being equal to God on any level. Jesus and Jehovah are both spirit beings however, and Jesus has the special privilege of being the beginning of His creation, being created solely by Jehovah's hands as nothing else existed.

YOu have no scripture other than the rewritten NWT that says Jesus is a created being. The NWT does not qualify as a real bible for its intentional rewrites of many passages of Scripture. It was not translated from the greek by any greek linguistic exspert nor Hebrew linguistic expert.

 

[BarneyFife]

id He lie in these verses?

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

What was the question Jesus was answering here sir?
I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

How are they one?
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:9)

What did Jesus mean?

Is there any particular reason you chose not to address Isaiah 9:6?

Is Jesus God? — His enemies recognized His claim to be God.

Take for example the words of Jesus in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33, emphasis added). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” This is a reference back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” The Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

Is Jesus God? — His followers declared Him to be God.

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as God, indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. Beyond these, there are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus being God.

Is Jesus God? — The reason Jesus must be God.

The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death. God is the only being in the universe that possesses life unborrowed.

Is Jesus God? Yes. Jesus declared Himself to be God. His followers believed Him to be God. The provision of salvation only works if Jesus is God. Jesus is God incarnate, the eternal Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13), and God our Savior (2 Peter 1:1).

 

[BarneyFife]

The phyhsical body of Jesus died, But His divine spirit did not.

If this is true then the logic would follow that He did not fully die for the sins of man.

 

[GEN2REV]

If this is true then the logic would follow that He did not fully die for the sins of man.

Well, ... no.

God can't die. I'm seeing more and more threads claiming, and really driving home the idea, that Jesus died.

His physical body of corruptible flesh died, just as ours will. But just as our souls will not be destroyed, unless we are barred from the kingdom of heaven, His soul did not die. He still paid the ultimate price for our sins.

I think we have to remember that most of what Jesus did in the flesh upon the earth was as an example of what we must do. We must suffer as He suffered, we must uphold His Commands and endure in our Faith to the very end and, ultimately, most of those who enter the kingdom must die for their beliefs - not loving their physical life to the end. We must deny ourselves and give up our physical life just as Jesus did.

That's my take.

 

[BarneyFife]

Well, ... no.

God can't die. I'm seeing more and more threads claiming, and really driving home the idea, that Jesus died.

His physical body of corruptible flesh died, just as ours will. But just as our souls will not be destroyed, unless we are barred from the kingdom of heaven, His soul did not die. He still paid the ultimate price for our sins.

I think we have to remember that most of what Jesus did in the flesh upon the earth was as an example of what we must do. We must suffer as He suffered, we must uphold His Commands and endure in our Faith to the very end and, ultimately, most of those who enter the kingdom must die for their beliefs - not loving their physical life to the end. We must deny ourselves and give up our physical life just as Jesus did.

That's my take.

I'm afraid we're at odds here. My take is that God breathed into the nostrils of man and he became a living soul. Not that he has a soul, but that he is a soul.

 

[BarneyFife]

God can't die. I'm seeing more and more threads claiming, and really driving home the idea, that Jesus died.

The Bible seems to claim and drive it home.

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. (Acts 5:30)​

 

[Wrangler]

So do you believe that if one holds the triune God doctrine, what they really want is to be God?

No. They really want a man to be God.

 

[Wrangler]

The phyhsical body of Jesus died

Implied dualism. Jesus died. No part of him can possibly survive in order for the Good News to have any benefit to humanity!

Only once he is 100% totally dead, like every other human being, does the proof of God's love for us have meaning in the evidence of raising our brother into a resurrected body. Yes, our brother!

How did Jesus tell us to pray? To 'my' father? No. To 'your' father? No. To God, the Father of us all, including Jesus.


He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (VOICE)

 

[Wrangler]

But His divine spirit did not.

It is God's Spirit that was within Jesus. See the baptism.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If this is true then the logic would follow that He did not fully die for the sins of man.

God does not function according to human logic.