I have difficulty believing that souls will be damned to the Lake of Fire

[quietthinker]

In the New Testament Hades is described as being DOWN: "And thou, Capernaum, which are exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to Hades" [KJV-"hell"]. Notice the contrast between being exalted very high and brought down very low. In the parallel passage in Luke 10:15 the Lord spoke of being "thrust down to Hades."

Sheol/Hades once had two compartments: one for the souls of the saved, the other for the souls of the unsaved.

This is clearly taught in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man died, his body was buried and he went to hell (Sheol/Hades)--see verses 22-23. In Sheol/Hades he was being tormented (tortured) by a flame (verses 23, 24, 25, 28). It is a literal "place" (v. 28). This is the place where the souls of the unsaved go upon death. But also in Sheol/Hades is another compartment occupied by Abraham and Lazarus (verse 23). It was the place where the righteous dead would go. This compartment is a place of comfort (v. 25). It is called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:23). "Abraham's bosom" is the place where the righteous dead can have fellowship with each other and with Abraham who is the father of the faithful. Sheol/hades is also called "paradise" where the thief on the cross and Christ went (Luke 23:43).

Between these two compartments communication was possible (verses 24-31). However passing from one compartment to the other was impossible (verse 26). The destiny of the people in each compartment was fixed and settled and could not be changed. The way to avoid the compartment which involved torture in the flame and the way to enter the blessed compartment with Abraham was to hear and heed the Word of God while one is still alive (verses 27-31).

The following diagram represents Sheol/Hades prior to the resurrection of Christ, showing the two compartments:

Hades/Sheol--Where Do the Dead Go?

www.middletownbiblechurch.org

lol....Monikers! how revealing they are!
How many liars tell the truth?.....of course their hand goes up volunteering for honesty......and insight.

False humility is busted at the front door (monikers) .....for the literate........because pride can not help itself.

You enter as the 'Learner' yet assume the position of teacher

 

[Johann]

lol....Monikers! how revealing they are!
How many liars tell the truth?.....of course their hand goes up volunteering for honesty......and insight.

False humility is busted at the front door (monikers) .....for the literate........because pride can not help itself.

You enter as the 'Learner' yet assume the position of teacher

Just tell me or @Learner if you are going through a "tough patch", old age tends to do that, with medicine as a coping mechanism.

J.

 

[Taken]

I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.

How does a lifeless body and lifeless soul eternally suffer?

The only thing that can suffer eternally is something that HAS life in it and separated from God...Created Celestials ARE spirits, they can not die.
Their eternal suffering IS eternal separation from God.

 

[Adam]

How does one become separate from God if God is omnipresent and omniscient?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

How does one become separate from God if God is omnipresent and omniscient?

You do realize, of course?:

Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a Consuming FIRE... (cp Heb 12:29)

Much Better to receive This, instead?:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!

eh?

 

[quietthinker]

How does a lifeless body and lifeless soul eternally suffer?

The only thing that can suffer eternally is something that HAS life in it and separated from God...Created Celestials ARE spirits, they can not die.
Their eternal suffering IS eternal separation from God.

I would revisit the idea that spirits can not die.

 

[Adam]

You do realize, of course?:

Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a Consuming FIRE... (cp Heb 12:29)

Much Better to receive This, instead?:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!

eh?

3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the Lord trieth the hearts.

Here's your lake of fire

 

[Taken]

I would revisit the idea that spirits can not die.

why?

 

[The Learner]

Just tell me or @Learner if you are going through a "tough patch", old age tends to do that, with medicine as a coping mechanism.

J.

Recovering from complete shoulder replacement

 

[The Learner]

How does a lifeless body and lifeless soul eternally suffer?

The only thing that can suffer eternally is something that HAS life in it and separated from God...Created Celestials ARE spirits, they can not die.
Their eternal suffering IS eternal separation from God.

raised in an indestructible body I cor 5

 

[The Learner]

How does one become separate from God if God is omnipresent and omniscient?

God choose not to look at them or they just feel that way. Think about when a friend turns their back on you.

 

[The Learner]

3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the Lord trieth the hearts.

Here's your lake of fire

Deuteronomy 4
Easy-to-Read Version
Moses’ Warning to Obey God’s Laws
4 “Now, Israel, listen to the laws and to the commands that I teach you. Obey them and you will live. Then you can go in and take the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, is giving you. 2 You must not add to what I command you. And you must not take anything away. You must obey the commands of the Lord your God that I have given you.

3 “You have seen what the Lord did at Baal Peor. The Lord your God destroyed all your people who followed the false god Baal at that place. 4 But all of you who stayed with the Lord your God are alive today.

5 “I taught you the laws and rules that the Lord my God commanded me. I did this so you could obey them in the land you are ready to enter and take for your own. 6 Obey these laws carefully. This will show the people of the other nations that you are wise and sensible. They will hear about these laws and say, ‘Truly, the people of this great nation are wise and sensible.’

7 “The Lord our God is near when we ask him to help us. No other nation has a god like that! 8 And no other nation is great enough to have laws and rules as good as the teachings I give you today. 9 But you must be careful! Be sure that as long as you live you never forget what you have seen. You must teach these things to your children and grandchildren. 10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Mount Horeb. The Lord said to me, ‘Gather the people together to listen to what I have to say. Then they will learn to respect me as long as they live on earth. And they will teach these things to their children.’ 11 You came near and stood at the bottom of the mountain. The mountain burned with fire that reached up to the sky. There were thick black clouds and darkness. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you from the fire. You heard the sound of someone speaking, but you did not see any form. There was only a voice. 13 The Lord told you about his agreement, which he commanded you to obey. He told you about the Ten Commandments, which he wrote on two stone tablets. 14 At that time the Lord also commanded me to teach you the other laws and rules that you must follow in the land you are going to take and live in.

15 “On the day the Lord spoke to you from the fire at Mount Horeb, you did not see him—there was no shape for God. 16 So be careful! Don’t sin and destroy yourselves by making false gods or statues in the shape of any living thing. Don’t make an idol that looks like a man or a woman, 17 or like an animal on the earth, or like a bird that flies in the sky. 18 And don’t make an idol that looks like anything that crawls on the ground or like a fish in the sea. 19 And be careful when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon, and the stars—all the many things in the sky. Be careful that you are not tempted to worship and serve them. The Lord your God lets the other people in the world do this. 20 But the Lord brought you out of Egypt to make you his own special people. He saved you from Egypt. It was as if he pulled you from a hot furnace.[a] And now you are his people.

21 “The Lord was angry with me because of you. He swore that I could not go across the Jordan River into the good land that the Lord your God is giving you. 22 So I must die here in this land. I cannot go across the Jordan River, but you will soon go across it and take that good land and live there. 23 You must be careful not to forget the agreement that the Lord your God made with you. You must obey the Lord’s command. Don’t make any idols in any form, 24 because the Lord your God hates for his people to worship other gods. And he can be like a fire that destroys!

25 “You will live in the country a long time. You will have children and grandchildren there. After all that time, be sure that you do not then ruin your lives by making any kind of idol! That is something the Lord your God considers evil, and it would make him very angry! 26 So I am warning you now. Heaven and earth are my witnesses! If you do such an evil thing, you will quickly be destroyed! You are crossing the Jordan River now to take that land. But if you make any idols, you will not live there very long. No, you will be destroyed completely! 27 The Lord will scatter you among the nations. And only a few of you will be left alive to go to the countries where the Lord will send you. 28 There you will serve gods made by men—things made of wood and stone that cannot see or hear or eat or smell! 29 But there in these other lands you will look for the Lord your God. And if you look for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him. 30 When you are in trouble—when all these things happen to you—then you will come back to the Lord your God and obey him. 31 The Lord your God is a merciful God! He will not leave you there or destroy you completely. He will not forget the agreement that he made with your ancestors.

Think About the Great Things God Did
32 “Has anything this great ever happened before? Never! Look at the past. Think about everything that happened before you were born. Go all the way back to the time when God made people on the earth. Look at everything that has happened anywhere in the world. Has anyone ever heard about anything as great as this? No! 33 You people heard God speaking to you from a fire, and you are still alive. Has that ever happened to anyone else? No! 34 Has any other god ever tried to go and take a people for himself from inside another nation? No! But you yourselves have seen everything that the Lord your God did for you. He showed you his power and strength. You saw the troubles that tested the people. You saw miracles and wonders. You saw war and the terrible things that happened. 35 The Lord showed you all this so that you would know that he is God. There is no other god like him. 36 He let you hear his voice from heaven so that he could teach you a lesson. On earth he let you see his great fire, and he spoke to you from it.

37 “He loved your ancestors. That is why he chose you, their descendants. And that is why he brought you out of Egypt. He was with you and brought you out with his great power. 38 When you moved forward, he forced out nations that were greater and more powerful than you. And he led you into their land. He gave you their land to live in, as he is still doing today.

39 “So today you must remember and accept that the Lord is God. He is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other god! 40 And you must obey his laws and commands that I give you today. Then everything will go well with you and your children who live after you. And you will live a long time in the land the Lord your God is giving you—it will be yours forever.”

Moses Chooses the Cities of Safety
41 Then Moses chose three cities on the east side of the Jordan River. 42 Any person who killed someone by accident and not out of hate could run away to one of these three cities and not be put to death. 43 The three cities that Moses chose were Bezer in the high plains for the tribe of Reuben, Ramoth in Gilead for the tribe of Gad, and Golan in Bashan for the tribe of Manasseh.

Introduction to the Law of Moses
44 Moses gave God’s law to the Israelites. 45 Moses gave these teachings, laws, and rules to the people after they came out of Egypt. 46 He gave them these laws while they were on the east side of the Jordan River, in the valley across from Beth Peor. They were in the land of Sihon, the Amorite king who lived at Heshbon. Moses and the Israelites had defeated Sihon when they came out of Egypt. 47 They took Sihon’s land to keep. They also took the land of King Og of Bashan. These two Amorite kings lived on the east side of the Jordan River. 48 This land goes from Aroer on the edge of the Arnon Valley all the way to Mount Sirion, that is, Mount Hermon. 49 This land also included the whole Jordan Valley on the east side of the Jordan River. To the south, this land reached to the Dead Sea.[c] To the east, it reached to the foot of Mount Pisgah.

Footnotes
Deuteronomy 4:20 furnace Literally, “iron furnace,” that is, a furnace hot enough to soften iron.
Deuteronomy 4:48 Sirion Or “Siyon.”
Deuteronomy 4:49 Dead Sea Literally, “Arabah Sea.”

 

[The Learner]

Proverbs 17
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
17 Better is a dry morsel with joy, than a house full of victims with strife.

2 A wise servant shall rule over foolish sons, and shall divide the inheritance among the brethren.

3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

4 The evil man obeyeth an unjust tongue: and the deceitful hearkeneth to lying lips.

5 He that despiseth the poor, reproacheth his Maker; and he that rejoiceth at another man's ruin, shall not be unpunished.

6 Children's children are the crown of old men: and the glory of children are their fathers.

7 Eloquent words do not become a fool, nor lying lips a prince.

8 The expectation of him that expecteth, is a most acceptable jewel: whithersoever he turneth himself, he understandeth wisely.

9 He that concealeth a transgression. seeketh friendships: he that repeateth it again, separateth friends.

10 A reproof availeth more with a wise man, than a hundred stripes with a fool.

11 An evil man always seeketh quarrels: but a cruel angel shall be sent against him.

12 It is better to meet a bear robbed of her whelps, than a fool trusting in his own folly.

13 He that rendereth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

14 The beginning of quarrels is as when one letteth out water: before he suffereth reproach he forsaketh judgment.

15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, both are abominable before God.

16 What doth it avail a fool to have riches, seeing he cannot buy wisdom? He that maketh his house high, seeketh a downfall: and he that refuseth to learn, shall fall into evils.

17 He that is a friend loveth at all times: and a brother is proved in distress.

18 A foolish man will clap hands, when he is surety for his friend.

19 He that studieth discords, loveth quarrels: and he that exalteth his door, seeketh ruin.

20 He that is of a perverse heart, shall not find good: and he that perverteth his tongue, shall fall into evil.

21 A fool is born to his own disgrace: and even his father shall not rejoice in a fool.

22 A joyful mind maketh age flourishing: a sorrowful spirit drieth up the bones.

23 The wicked man taketh gifts out of the bosom, that he may pervert the paths of judgment.

24 Wisdom shineth in the face of the wise: the eyes of fools are in the ends of the earth.

25 A foolish son is the anger of the father: and the sorrow of the mother that bore him.

26 It is no good thing to do hurt to the just: nor to strike the prince, who judgeth right.

27 He that setteth bounds to his words. is knowing and wise: and the man of understanding is of a precious spirit.

28 Even a fool, if he will hold his peace shall be counted wise: and if he close his lips, a man of understanding.

 

[The Learner]

Hebrews 12
Easy-to-Read Version
We Also Should Follow Jesus’ Example
12 We have all these great people around us as examples. Their lives tell us what faith means. So we, too, should run the race that is before us and never quit. We should remove from our lives anything that would slow us down and the sin that so often makes us fall. 2 We must never stop looking to Jesus. He is the leader of our faith, and he is the one who makes our faith complete. He suffered death on a cross. But he accepted the shame of the cross as if it were nothing because of the joy he could see waiting for him. And now he is sitting at the right side of God’s throne. 3 Think about Jesus. He patiently endured the angry insults that sinful people were shouting at him. Think about him so that you won’t get discouraged and stop trying.

God Is Like a Father
4 You are struggling against sin, but you have not had to give up your life for the cause. 5 You are children of God, and he speaks words of comfort to you. You have forgotten these words:

“My child, don’t think the Lord’s discipline is worth nothing,
and don’t stop trying when he corrects you.
6 The Lord disciplines everyone he loves;
he punishes everyone he accepts as a child.”

7 So accept sufferings like a father’s discipline. God does these things to you like a father correcting his children. You know that all children are disciplined by their fathers. 8 So, if you never receive the discipline that every child must have, you are not true children and don’t really belong to God. 9 We have all had fathers here on earth who corrected us with discipline. And we respected them. So it is even more important that we accept discipline from the Father of our spirits. If we do this, we will have life. 10 Our fathers on earth disciplined us for a short time in the way they thought was best. But God disciplines us to help us so that we can be holy like him. 11 We don’t enjoy discipline when we get it. It is painful. But later, after we have learned our lesson from it, we will enjoy the peace that comes from doing what is right.

Be Careful How You Live
12 You have become weak, so make yourselves strong again. 13 Live in the right way so that you will be saved and your weakness will not cause you to be lost.

14 Try to live in peace with everyone. And try to keep your lives free from sin. Anyone whose life is not holy will never see the Lord. 15 Be careful that no one fails to get God’s grace. Be careful that no one loses their faith and becomes like a bitter weed growing among you. Someone like that can ruin your whole group. 16 Be careful that no one commits sexual sin. And be careful that no one is like Esau and never thinks about God. As the oldest son, Esau would have inherited everything from his father. But he sold all that for a single meal. 17 You remember that after Esau did this, he wanted to get his father’s blessing. He wanted that blessing so much that he cried. But his father refused to give him the blessing, because Esau could find no way to change what he had done.

18 You have not come to a place that can be seen and touched, like the mountain the people of Israel saw, which was burning with fire and covered with darkness, gloom, and storms. 19 There is no sound of a trumpet or a voice speaking words like those they heard. When they heard the voice, they begged never to hear another word. 20 They did not want to hear the command: “If anything, even an animal, touches the mountain, it must be killed with stones.”[a] 21 What they saw was so terrible that Moses said, “I am shaking with fear.”[c]

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.[d] You have come to a place where thousands of angels have gathered to celebrate. 23 You have come to the meeting of God’s firstborn[e] children. Their names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all people. And you have come to the spirits of good people who have been made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus—the one who brought the new agreement from God to his people. You have come to the sprinkled blood[f] that tells us about better things than the blood of Abel.

25 Be careful and don’t refuse to listen when God speaks. Those people refused to listen to him when he warned them on earth. And they did not escape. Now God is speaking from heaven. So now it will be worse for those who refuse to listen to him. 26 When he spoke before, his voice shook the earth. But now he has promised, “Once again I will shake the earth, but I will also shake heaven.”[g] 27 The words “once again” clearly show us that everything that was created will be destroyed—that is, the things that can be shaken. And only what cannot be shaken will remain.

28 So we should be thankful because we have a kingdom that cannot be shaken. And because we are thankful, we should worship God in a way that will please him. We should do this with respect and fear, 29 because our God is like a fire that can destroy us.

Footnotes
Hebrews 12:20 Quote from Ex. 19:12-13.
Hebrews 12:21 Quote from Deut. 9:19.
Hebrews 12:21 These verses refer to things that happened to the people of Israel in the time of Moses as described in Ex. 19.
Hebrews 12:22 Jerusalem Here, the spiritual city of God’s people.
Hebrews 12:23 firstborn The first son born in a Jewish family had the most important place in the family and received special blessings. All of God’s children are like that.
Hebrews 12:24 sprinkled blood The blood (death) of Jesus.
Hebrews 12:26 Quote from Hag. 2:6.

 

[quietthinker]

why?

Several reasons. The first one is that it is an unfounded assumption.....that needs unpacking.

Secondly, the devil and his hordes will all come to a miserable end at the appointed time.
You might look at Ezekiel 28.....yes, the whole chapter but in particular verses 18-19

 

[The Learner]

bold in the above 3 posts was made by an html tag for a comment in the text.

 

[Adam]

God choose not to look at them

God's omniscient

or they just feel that way.

So it is just a feeling of shame and guilt then

Think about when a friend turns their back on you.

God is all-loving and all-forgiving

 

[bluedragon]

True Adam.

The point of turning the logic around from the thinking of the Original Post, is to view the matter from God's perspective. In which case, yes, we all fall short--but that is not the point of turning it around. The point is that to put ourselves in God's shoes and trying to imagine being fair and loving with both good and evil--if one can imagine themselves or their love ones being under attack by evil and what they themselves would do about it, it should be determined that it is in fact good to be bad with evil...which is the plan of God.

The example I gave was comparable to Eve being attacked by Satan unto death. That if a good man were to have a snake bite and kill his own daughter and kill the snake, no one would (or should) think ill of the man for doing it, but rather considered such an act as justified...as is our God and Father for doing likewise to all that is evil after painstakingly sorting the matter out, loosing none but the son(s) of perdition.

Let's consider that instead of blaming God for their own failure, Adam and Eve prayed that God forgive them for the rest of their lives. If we follow scripture, it's safe to assume that Adam and Eve resided in Shoel until Jesus frees them after his death. The opposite can be true as well .....If Adam and Eve cursed God for the rest of their lives ....they were in Hades with the Rich man, as told in the parable .....Hitler knew about Christ. He sought artifacts from the early church. But he also believed in the Occult ....His attempt to exterminate the Jews .....I lean a definate resident in Hades.

 

[atpollard]

By that logic, everyone should be thrown into hell.

Now you are talking like a REFORMED believer.

Total Depravity … The “T” in TULIP.

 

[atpollard]

God is all-loving and all-forgiving

No God isn’t.
There are lots of people in the Bible that God punished rather than forgave. How about everyone that died in the desert during the 40 years and never entered the Promised Land for a starter?