I have difficulty believing that souls will be damned to the Lake of Fire

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Johann

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Well thank you Johann, but its just the way my mind works......what I believe has to make logical sense to me, and I have been 'unpacking' the Bible for the last 50 years. I am first and foremost a Bible student, (I will never graduate because there will never be a time when I know it all, so I am a work in progress.)

I always have to start at the beginning and work my way through any scenario so that it is in logical order in my mind. I don't just want to know "what"...but "why" and "how" and what results or consequences came about......so it's like a movie in my head, and I can see the players doing what the Bible says they did....an over active imagination I suppose, but it helps me remember scripture and the scenes I have already played in my mind....and I can join them up.

The Bible to me is like a big jigsaw puzzle.....where you have pieces that fit together over here, and other pieces that fit over there, and yet the big picture on the box tells me that there is so much more to fill in the spaces. Every time I get to fill a space, I get an immense feeling of satisfaction, knowing that when I have asked Jehovah to help me fill those gaps, they always come together so smoothly.

When Luke wrote his gospel account and also the book of Acts, it was addressed to The·ophʹi·lus...who apparently was a Christian, having been orally taught about Jesus Christ and his ministry. Luke’s written statement served to assure him of the certainty of what he had learned previously by word of mouth.
Luke wrote....
"I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally." (Luke 1:3-4; Acts 1:1)
This resonated with me straight away.....he 'resolved to trace all things with accuracy and then to write them in logical order'.

The Bible to me is one story.....a beginning...a middle...and an end. The details are fascinating, but all of them have to fit in their right places.
I don't find the Bible illogical at all, but I do find Christendom's interpretation of it makes me shake my head....so many contradictions where there doesn't need to be any. :IDK:
Here is one for you.
Is divorce and remarriage a sin?
 

CadyandZoe

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To his ancient people Jehovah said.....

“‘And when someone wicked turns away from the wickedness that he has committed and begins to do what is just and righteous, he will preserve his own life. 28 When he realizes and turns away from all the transgressions that he has committed, he will surely keep living. He will not die.

29 “‘But the house of Israel will say: “The way of Jehovah is unjust.” Is it really my ways that are unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?’

30 “‘Therefore, I will judge each one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘Turn away, yes, turn completely away from all your transgressions, so that they will not be a stumbling block bringing guilt upon you. 31 Rid yourselves of all the transgressions you have committed and acquire a new heart and a new spirit, for why should you die, O house of Israel?’

32 “‘I do not take any pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘So turn back and live.’
(Ezekiel 18:27-32)

Is this not God’s plea to all of us?

We can be like Israel and accuse Jehovah of not being fair in his righteous requirements, but it is we who are not being honest with ourselves....we can then justify all kinds of things that we are told is not acceptable to God, even though they are acceptable to ourselves.

If God takes no pleasure in the death of even the wicked, then why would he take pleasure in torturing them forever?
Yes I agree. What you say sounds right to me. But I think we need to fill in more of the picture. (I used to do picture puzzles when I was younger. :) )

Consider this passage from Paul's epistle to the Romans.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:4-11

Here the Apostle contrasts and compares the disposition of those who persevere in doing good, with those who are selfishly ambitious. We might expect death would be the just penalty for those who are selfishly ambitious, which will be their final fate, but Paul also assigns "tribulation and distress" to every soul of man who does evil. It seems to me that the souls of the selfishly ambitious will suffer a time of tribulation and distress before they are destroyed in the lake of fire.

I don't know what that will look like and if you have any ideas I would like to hear them.
 

Dropship

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..There are no genuine Christians involved in any political war. Our war is spiritual and so are our weapons..

Yes Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers".
"The greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle" General Sun Tzu 500 BC


but if the enemy refuses to discuss peace, we have no choice but to take up arms to defend ourselves..:)
"We shall have peace even if we have to fight for it"- Dwight Eisenhower
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."-George Orwell
 

Aunty Jane

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Here is one for you.
Is divorce and remarriage a sin?
The Bible is clear on this.....marriage is forever. Divorce is not permissible except on the grounds of adultery.
Jesus said at Matt 19:4-9....
“Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”. . . . . I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”


At Romans 7:2-3 Paul wrote...
". . . .a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be called an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s."

So there are only two things that end a marriage and allow for remarriage.....adultery or death.
 

Aunty Jane

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Yes Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers".
"The greatest warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle" General Sun Tzu 500 BC


but if the enemy refuses to discuss peace, we have no choice but to take up arms to defend ourselves..:)
"We shall have peace even if we have to fight for it"- Dwight Eisenhower
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."-George Orwell
Jesus is the one we are to take notice of......the rest have no influence on me. We are told to 'love our enemies'....how can we do that? It doesn't mean that we have to give them a big hug.....it means that we do not allow hatred to enter our hearts...we will not do them harm....or take vengeance on them....we will leave that to God.
Like Jesus and the martyrs of the first century, we will endure whatever satan's henchemen dish up....even if it means our life.
 

Aunty Jane

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Yes I agree. What you say sounds right to me. But I think we need to fill in more of the picture. (I used to do picture puzzles when I was younger. :) )

Consider this passage from Paul's epistle to the Romans.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:4-11

Here the Apostle contrasts and compares the disposition of those who persevere in doing good, with those who are selfishly ambitious. We might expect death would be the just penalty for those who are selfishly ambitious, which will be their final fate, but Paul also assigns "tribulation and distress" to every soul of man who does evil. It seems to me that the souls of the selfishly ambitious will suffer a time of tribulation and distress before they are destroyed in the lake of fire.

I don't know what that will look like and if you have any ideas I would like to hear them.
Will give this my full attention tomorrow......till then, its time for bed here....
 

Johann

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The Bible is clear on this.....marriage is forever. Divorce is not permissible except on the grounds of adultery.
Jesus said at Matt 19:4-9....
“Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”. . . . . I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”


At Romans 7:2-3 Paul wrote...
". . . .a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be called an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s."

So there are only two things that end a marriage and allow for remarriage.....adultery or death.
have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female? This may be read in Gen_1:27 and from thence this sense of things collected; that God, who in the beginning of time, or of the creation, as Mark expresses it, made all things, the heavens, and the earth, and all that is therein, and particularly "man", as the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel supply it here, made the first parents of mankind, male and female; not male and females, but one male, and one female; first, one male, and then, of him one female, who, upon her creation, was brought and married to him; so that in this original constitution, no provision was made for divorce, or polygamy. Adam could not marry more wives than one, nor could he put away Eve for every cause, and marry another: now either the Pharisees had read this account, or they had not; if they had not, they were guilty of great negligence and sloth; if they had, they either understood it or not; if they did not understand it, it was greatly to their reproach, who pretended to great knowledge of the Scriptures, and to be able to explain them to others; and if they did understand it, there was no need for this question, which therefore must be put with an evil design.


For the woman which hath an husband,.... The former general rule is here illustrated by a particular instance and example in the law of marriage; a woman that is married to a man,
is bound by the law to her husband; to live with him, in subjection and obedience to him,
so long as he liveth; except in the cases of adultery, Mat_19:9, and desertion, 1Co_7:15, by which the bond of marriage is loosed, and for which a divorce or separation may be made, which are equal to death:
but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband; the bond of marriage is dissolved, the law of it is abolished, and she is at entire liberty to marry whom she will, 1Co_7:39.


The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth,.... That is, she is bound to her husband, by the law of marriage, during his life; nor can the bond of marriage between them be dissolved but by the death of one of them, except in the cases of adultery, and wilful desertion, see Rom_7:2.
But if her husband be dead; or "asleep", for so the word may be rendered; though it designs death: death is often expressed by sleeping in Scripture; for the dead will not always remain in such a state, but be raised from thence at the last day, just as persons are awaked out of sleep. The Alexandrian copy reads αποθανη, "dead"; and so seems the Ethiopic version to have read.

She is at liberty to marry whom she will: so that second marriages are lawful, though condemned by many of the ancients: the liberty of a widow is greater than that of a virgin, because a virgin is under the power, and at the dispose of her parents; but a widow is at her own dispose; and death having dissolved her former obligation, she is at entire liberty to marry, or not marry, and to marry whom she pleases, that is not forbidden by the laws of God:
only in the Lord; not that it is absolutely necessary that her husband should be in the Lord, a converted person, a believer in Christ; though such an one should be most desirable and eligible: but either that she should continue in the possession of her faith in Christ, and not relinquish it for the sake of an husband; or that she enter into this state in the fear of the Lord, calling upon him, and consulting him in such an important affair; and take care that whom she marries is not within the line prohibited by the Lord.
Gill

I can send you a link, but from experience people don't read or listen to links other than themselves.

J.
 

Dropship

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Jesus is the one we are to take notice of......the rest have no influence on me..

Nevertheless, some of Jesus's followers carried swords and used them..:)-
"Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear." (John 18:10)
"When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him." (Luke 22:49-51)
 

Johann

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The Bible is clear on this.....marriage is forever. Divorce is not permissible except on the grounds of adultery.
Jesus said at Matt 19:4-9....
“Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”. . . . . I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”


At Romans 7:2-3 Paul wrote...
". . . .a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be called an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s."

So there are only two things that end a marriage and allow for remarriage.....adultery or death.
Sometimes we can become too dogmatic in what we perceive the scriptures tells us.

Give this a listen.


....however I enjoy your frankness that we are all a work in progress and that we don't know it all.

Mike Winger is unpacking the scriptures re this topic in a most unusual way, just give a ear.
J.
 

Adam

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There are no genuine Christians involved in any political war. Our war is spiritual and so are our weapons.

2 Cor 10:3-5...
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ”.

We are to....”Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

True Christians show that they are by their actions...not their pathetic excuses.....our judge will not accept them. (1 John 4:20-21) In the wars of the nations, it is acceptable to kill your own “brothers” just because they live in another nation with a different political ideology.
Exactly this. A perfect Christian is an absolute pacifist. If I am ever drafted for war I would rather be hanged than kill someone.

In my country, there is a lot of injustice. People who have diabetes or other medical conditions need to pay out of pocket for life-saving medicines, and in some cases, they have to pay out of pocket for specialist consultations as well (which is very expensive). What really made me mad was when I learnt that transvestites are completely covered by government health plan, both consultations and drugs, all of it, for their "transition".

I had a dream last night, I was a diabetic, and I wasn't taking my medicine because it was too expensive. I was told I was at risk of losing my legs and I got mad at the fact that I was going to lose my legs while sinners were given blank cheque to indulge in their perverted fantasies at taxpayer expense. As I was going off on them, I felt a faint, ghostly grip on my neck, which grew tighter as I angrily ranted, until I was choking and realized too late that I was being strangled by the Devil. I woke up understanding exactly what this meant. The Devil wants you to believe that by hating sinners, by hating gays, communists, Nazis, Jews, atheists, etc. that you are doing God's work, because they are the enemies of God and should be destroyed so that justice can reign, right? It is a lie. By making you hate someone, you've taken the Devil's bait which he laid out for you, and now he has you too. You must pray and love the sinners, pray for them to be free of their demons, it is the only way for you yourself to be free.
 
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Aunty Jane

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have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female? This may be read in Gen_1:27 and from thence this sense of things collected; that God, who in the beginning of time, or of the creation, as Mark expresses it, made all things, the heavens, and the earth, and all that is therein, and particularly "man", as the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel supply it here, made the first parents of mankind, male and female; not male and females, but one male, and one female; first, one male, and then, of him one female, who, upon her creation, was brought and married to him; so that in this original constitution, no provision was made for divorce, or polygamy. Adam could not marry more wives than one, nor could he put away Eve for every cause, and marry another: now either the Pharisees had read this account, or they had not; if they had not, they were guilty of great negligence and sloth; if they had, they either understood it or not; if they did not understand it, it was greatly to their reproach, who pretended to great knowledge of the Scriptures, and to be able to explain them to others; and if they did understand it, there was no need for this question, which therefore must be put with an evil design.


For the woman which hath an husband,.... The former general rule is here illustrated by a particular instance and example in the law of marriage; a woman that is married to a man,
is bound by the law to her husband; to live with him, in subjection and obedience to him,
so long as he liveth; except in the cases of adultery, Mat_19:9, and desertion, 1Co_7:15, by which the bond of marriage is loosed, and for which a divorce or separation may be made, which are equal to death:
but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband; the bond of marriage is dissolved, the law of it is abolished, and she is at entire liberty to marry whom she will, 1Co_7:39.


The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth,.... That is, she is bound to her husband, by the law of marriage, during his life; nor can the bond of marriage between them be dissolved but by the death of one of them, except in the cases of adultery, and wilful desertion, see Rom_7:2.
But if her husband be dead; or "asleep", for so the word may be rendered; though it designs death: death is often expressed by sleeping in Scripture; for the dead will not always remain in such a state, but be raised from thence at the last day, just as persons are awaked out of sleep. The Alexandrian copy reads αποθανη, "dead"; and so seems the Ethiopic version to have read.

She is at liberty to marry whom she will: so that second marriages are lawful, though condemned by many of the ancients: the liberty of a widow is greater than that of a virgin, because a virgin is under the power, and at the dispose of her parents; but a widow is at her own dispose; and death having dissolved her former obligation, she is at entire liberty to marry, or not marry, and to marry whom she pleases, that is not forbidden by the laws of God:
only in the Lord; not that it is absolutely necessary that her husband should be in the Lord, a converted person, a believer in Christ; though such an one should be most desirable and eligible: but either that she should continue in the possession of her faith in Christ, and not relinquish it for the sake of an husband; or that she enter into this state in the fear of the Lord, calling upon him, and consulting him in such an important affair; and take care that whom she marries is not within the line prohibited by the Lord.
Gill

I can send you a link, but from experience people don't read or listen to links other than themselves.

J.
There is a lot of detail there Johann.....but what I posted was the shortened version....what you asked was answered, scripturally, was it not?
When you go into that kind of detail, it is great for genuine Bible students, but too deep for the average “Christian” to keep reading. People today want to be spoon fed, don’t you think? They have the attention span of a goldfish.....
 

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Aunty Jane

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Yes I agree. What you say sounds right to me. But I think we need to fill in more of the picture. (I used to do picture puzzles when I was younger. :) )

Consider this passage from Paul's epistle to the Romans.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:4-11

Here the Apostle contrasts and compares the disposition of those who persevere in doing good, with those who are selfishly ambitious. We might expect death would be the just penalty for those who are selfishly ambitious, which will be their final fate, but Paul also assigns "tribulation and distress" to every soul of man who does evil. It seems to me that the souls of the selfishly ambitious will suffer a time of tribulation and distress before they are destroyed in the lake of fire.

I don't know what that will look like and if you have any ideas I would like to hear them.
Unpacking what Paul says here, we can see a clear distinction between those who repent and those who do not. Jehovah’s justice is completely perfect, so whatever judgment he gives to each one is based on his assessment of their actions, not just their words.

The “wrath and indignation” suffered by the wicked does not have to be protracted or to wait for a second judgment in “hell”.
When a wicked man broke God’s law, punishment involved the death penalty. Mercy was extended if there were mitigating circumstances but by and large, the death sentence was carried out, usually by stoning.

No law of God involved prolonged suffering or incarceration as a penalty. Even when a man was stoned, a direct hit to the temple usually meant a quick death. We saw that with David’s encounter with Goliath.

Since any kind of tribulation or distress involves the victim being fully conscious, this must occur whilst they are living. The dead cannot suffer. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Are the wicked spared suffering in this world? They are usually the ones inflicting the suffering unless the law of the land catches up with them. Languishing in prison cannot be a picnic for anyone.....it would be akin to living in a snake pit.....but it isn’t God who causes that situation. Various countries have their own ways of dealing with hardened criminals....and the death penalty has various methods of implementation in some countries....beheading, hanging, lethal injection or firing squad.

So if ‘God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked’, then why would he take pleasure in their suffering? It serves no purpose. It is their elimination from existence that serves God’s purpose....never again to interfere with His plans for the future.

When God brings vengeance on those who have opposed him and his son, it will mean going into “the lake of fire” which is what “Gehenna” is.....for those he has consigned to “Gehenna”...there is no consciousness and hence no suffering.....eternal death is a just punishment, meaning that these will never live again.

When the final battle is fought, and those bound for “Gehenna” realise what is in store for them, that will be the time when “the weeping and gnashing of teeth” will take place.

God will have destroyed “Babylon the great” as the opening part of “the great tribulation”. If you know what “Babylon the great” is, you will understand why people will be angry that they were misled by satan who was the creator of this spiritual adulteress....this disgusting harlot. We are told to “get out of her”. (Rev 18:4-5) How do we do that?

What are your thoughts about it? Who or what, is “Babylon the great”?
 

The Learner

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I'm confident that even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao loved someone. Based on the verse below, is it possible that they are not and will not be destroyed?​

1 John 4:7 ESV​

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
In Greek there are four words for love that have different meanings. The word love in I John 4 is not the same meaning for the word love in what you asked.
 

The Learner

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I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.
What is your understanding of the serious nature of Sin?
 

rockytopva

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Christ trying to get the point across...

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. - Luke 12:4-5
 

Aunty Jane

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Christ trying to get the point across...

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. - Luke 12:4-5
Can you tell me which Greek word is translated "hell" in this passage? It's the same word that Jesus used at Matt 10:28....which says basically the same thing....what "hell" is this?...and where is it?
 

Johann

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There is a lot of detail there Johann.....but what I posted was the shortened version....what you asked was answered, scripturally, was it not?
When you go into that kind of detail, it is great for genuine Bible students, but too deep for the average “Christian” to keep reading. People today want to be spoon fed, don’t you think? They have the attention span of a goldfish.....
So true, can't think past a one or two liner.

J.