I have difficulty believing that souls will be damned to the Lake of Fire

[Aunty Jane]

I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.

If you know what Jesus was really saying there you would have a very different opinion of his statement.
The first problem is the words that are translated "hell" in English versions of the Bible.

"Hell" is a word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ and the Greek haiʹdes.
In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from sheʼohlʹ 31 times and from haiʹdes 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since sheʼohlʹ is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version sheʼohlʹ is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once. These are not a good translations if the word "hell" doesn't represent what has been taught in Christendom for centuries.

No wonder that fear there is engendered by the mere mention of the word.

Interestingly, The Encyclopedia Americana said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”
Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.
To render "sheol" "hades" and "gehenna" as "Hell" is entirely misleading.
The following quote from the KJV is a classic example....

Mark 9:42-48
[42]And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
[43]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Which word is Jesus referring to here? It is not "sheol" or "hades" but "gehenna".....a place that Jesus' Jewish audience knew all too well, because to them it did not mean eternal torture in a hell of fire, but simply eternal death. So where do the symbolisms come from? What did the Jews understand Jesus' words to mean?

In the early days when unfaithful Israel had left off true worship and adopted the worship of Baal, the Israelites even went so far as to sacrifice their own children to this false god in the Valley of Hinnom.
God's comment on this was recorded by the prophet Jeremiah where He said....
"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

32 “‘Therefore look! the days are coming,’ declares Jehovah, ‘when it will no longer be called Toʹpheth or the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom but the Valley of the Slaughter. They will bury in Toʹpheth until there is no place left." (Jeremiah 7:31-32)

So God turned this 'Valley of Slaughter' into a place where the dead will fill it up....but how?

This valley was turned into Jerusalem's garbage dump where fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse. The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of the wicked....those not considered worthy of a decent burial, were cast into the flames for disposal.....what the flames missed, the maggots would finish off. So this is where the symbolisms come from. The Jews understood exactly what "gehenna" was, and since they had no belief in life after death, their hope was in a future resurrection. (which was a return to life, NOT a continuation of it in another form, somewhere else.) Even to this day, Jews will have elaborate burial places with their names and family lineage clearly inscribed because without such a memorial to attest to their existence, no one would remember that they ever lived. This ensured that God would not forget them in the resurrection, which they believed was to a restoration of life on earth under Messiah's Kingdom. He even gave the Jews first option to become "kings and priests" in his kingdom, but sadly only a "remnant" responded as it was prophesied. (Isa 10:22-23; Rom 9:27-28)

Since the Jewish nation as a whole rejected their Messiah and even cursed themselves and their children with his blood, (Matthew 27:25) this valley would soon be filled up with those responsible for the murder of their Messiah. Those who saw the miracles that the holy spirit performed through Christ and his apostles, and yet still cried out for his murder, how is that forgivable?

Yet, there is no 'hell of eternal flames and torture'.....even for the wicked....that is a satanic lie!
God has already stated that such a thing never entered his mind.....he is a God of love and would never torture anyone for any reason.
Not a single penalty under God's law involved torture, and in ancient Israel, they had no places of incarceration....no prisons. Both of these concepts were entirely missing from Jewish thought, but were in evidence in cultures who worshipped false gods.

Jehovah offered his people only two choices...life or death based on obedience to his commands....that's it. (Deut 30:19-20)
Death is the opposite of life, and 'everlasting death' is the opposite of 'everlasting life'. There is no such place as "hell".....the dead are in a place of rest, which is what "sheol" and 'hades" mean....it is the place of unconscious inactivity....from which Jesus will call the all the dead when his Kingdom rules the earth as he promised. (Eccl 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29) Those in "hades" will rise....those in "gehenna" will not. Its that simple....and only God knows who is in which place.

 

[RR144]

I'm confident that even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao loved someone. Based on the verse below, is it possible that they are not and will not be destroyed?

The scriptures say in 1 Timothy 2:6 "[Jesus] gave Himself a ransom for all." So yes, they will be resurrected, that said, they must prove faithful during the little season when Satan is let loose to deceive once again. (Rev 20:3)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 'And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'

What then is the "lake of fire".....and what do the scriptures say about it?
We find this expression used in the Bible only in the book of Revelation, and there its mention is confined to the small area of Revelation 19-21.
A possible allusion to it is also found at Matthew 25:41 where Jesus mentions "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
It seems as if the devil and his demons have a final destination there, but not until God is finished with him. He goes into an abyss for a thousand years first, and then he is released "for a little while." (Rev 20:1-3)

Who, or what else goes into the “lake of fire”? Among the things mentioned are the “wild beast” and the “false prophet”, who are not individuals but represent kingdoms and organizations of false worship. (Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10, 14)
Since "death and Hades" are also cast into this “lake”, it cannot be a literal place but rather a symbolic destination for all that God considers wicked and needing to be disposed of.
It parallels with "gehenna" a place which Jesus said was the destination of the wicked Pharisees.....(Matt 23:13-15; 33)
He also mentioned that 'body and soul' were "destroyed" in Gehenna, not tortured. (Matt 10:28)

So who are those whose names are not found in "the book of life"?
They are the ones who have not obeyed God and his son despite having a lifetime to make a decision about them. They have no time for God, so he has no time for them.

The apostle Paul wrote that there are only two categories of people who are not going to be saved....

2 Thess 1:6-10...
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

Those who "do not know God" because they don't want to....and those who claim to know God but "do not obey" the teachings of his son will not survive the coming day of judgment that is approaching. These do not have their names in "the Book of Life".

Where will we find ourselves on that day?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The scriptures say in 1 Timothy 2:6 "[Jesus] gave Himself a ransom for all." So yes, they will be resurrected, that said, they must prove faithful during the little season when Satan is let loose to deceive once again. (Rev 20:3)

I'm not sure that "all" means "all" according to what Patrick asked.
Since some have gone to "gehenna" or the "lake of fire" already, it is apparent that not "all" will be resurrected.
Jesus said...."Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Paul also mentioned those who would be resurrected...."And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)

So there will be among the resurrected ones "those who did vile things", but if these were committed in times of ignorance, then they will not be held accountable. This is why I believe there will be a period of judgment...when those ones will have an opportunity to learn about God and his son during the thousand year rule of the Kingdom, and then make their decisions about whether they will serve the true God, or not.

 

[RR144]

I'm not sure that "all" means "all" according to what Patrick asked.

No offense to Patrick, It doesn't matter what Patrick asked, but what the Scriptures say.

Since some have gone to "gehenna" or the "lake of fire" already, it is apparent that not "all" will be resurrected.

May I ask for scriptural proof of WHO?

Jesus said...."Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Actually, if you look up ANY interlinear Bible, you'll see that "memorial" was added in the New World Translation to support their doctrinal views. That said, EVERYBODY goes to mnēmeiois, (the tomb). The KIng James renders it correct:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

Notice, as in the NWT, it states ALL in the graves" and that there are TWOP resurrections, one to life and one to condemnation. When does this judgement occur? It occurs after the Millennial Reign, during the Little Season of Rev. 20:3, when Satan is let loose to deceive the nations. As you know, mankind will be perfect as Adam was and will be tried. The Kingdom Reign is an educational period, where all of mankind will learn about the Permission of Evil. During the Little Season, those who fall will have no excuse. They will die for thjeir own sins and not Adamic sin, because Jesus paid the ransom for Adam.

Paul also mentioned those who would be resurrected...."And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)

Again, the righteous and the unrighteous.

So there will be among the resurrected ones "those who did vile things", but if these were committed in times of ignorance, then they will not be held accountable. This is why I believe there will be a period of judgment...when those ones will have an opportunity to learn about God and his son during the thousand year rule of the Kingdom, and then make their decisions about whether they will serve the true God, or not.

So, we agree! LOL

 

[dhh712]

I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.

I have a difficult time with that doctrine as well, Patrick. The problem is that Jesus talks more about hell than he talked about anything else. Jesus sure believed there will be eternal suffering and I stand by my Lord. Personally, I do not want it to be that way, but then that is putting my own wants and desires above the truth (which is Jesus and all that which He spoke).

Hell is the wrath of God. Hell is what every one of us deserves by rebelling against our Creator. Personally, if I were God and Adam choose to disobey rather than inherit eternal life for himself, his wife and all of his descendants, I would have thrown in the towel and said Alright I'm done with all of this. But, that's mine--a human's--perspective. God is not a human (a mere human). His ways are above our ways, His ways are not our own. What He instead chose to do is to send Jesus into the world to offer to everyone the free gift of eternal life; a gift must be accepted though and there are those that will reject the offer of that gift and go without eternal life into eternal death--and this is their own choice. Our just and merciful Heavenly Father's ways are far, far better and merciful and gracious than mine will ever be.

I reconcile my thoughts to the despairing thought of hell--as most of my family members are not believers and will likely end up there--by remembering that God is also merciful, compassionate, and knows our weak frames. He knows the situations He has put all people into, what information he or she has been exposed to, what learning environment, chances to know the real God, their mental capacities, intelligence. I trust that our Heavenly Father is also just besides being boundless in mercy and grace (He has to be merciful to have me for his child!).

I don't like to think about hell. Frankly, since God knows my heart, the thought of it sickens and disgusts me. Yet, it is what my Lord and Savior taught and I will never deny that it does not exist. I lean upon the Lords' mercy and trust that He alone is just and that whatever will be the fate of every individual that no one will ever feel that at the judgment God did not make a just and righteous verdict.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No offense to Patrick, It doesn't matter what Patrick asked, but what the Scriptures say.

@Patrick1966 was quite specific in his questions.....he asked about some of history’s greatest despots. Would God remember them in the resurrection because they were capable of loving? The scripture he used was taken out of context, but the question was still valid IMO.

May I ask for scriptural proof of WHO?

Of course....the Pharisees come to mind....Jesus said that they would not “flee from the judgment of Gehenna”...a place where Jesus said that “both body and soul” are “destroyed”. (Matthew 23:33; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16) Gehenna is pictured by “the lake of fire”.....eternal death....a symbolic place where all things are destroyed forever......including “death and hades”. (Rev 20: 13-14)

Actually, if you look up ANY interlinear Bible, you'll see that "memorial" was added in the New World Translation to support their doctrinal views. That said, EVERYBODY goes to mnēmeiois, (the tomb). The KIng James renders it correct:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

Not so.....the word “mnēmeiois” translated as “memorial tombs” is completely justified....explained this way.....
“Concerning the Greek words used to refer to a burial place or tomb, A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (1932, Vol. V, p. 87) states: “Taphos (grave) presents the notion of burial (thapto, to bury) as in Matt. 23:27, mnemeion (from mnaomai, mimnesko, to remind) is a memorial (sepulchre as a monument).”
Related to mne·meiʹon is the word “mneʹma”, which appears to have a corresponding meaning, referring also to “a memorial or record of a thing or a dead person, then a sepulchral monument, and hence a tomb.”—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 2, p. 173.”

Notice, as in the NWT, it states ALL in the graves" and that there are TWO resurrections, one to life and one to condemnation.

No, we do not believe that there are two resurrection mentioned by Jesus in John 5:28-29....ALL receive the same resurrection...that is, all are returned to life...what is different is the pronouncement of their standing with God. Some who have died faithful will not need judgment.....as they have already proven “faithful unto death”....those who died in ignorance and who have paid sins wages, will have the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice applied to them and be given an opportunity to repent and to learn about their Creator and the means he provided to restore their lives.

The thousand year reign of the kingdom will provide an education program, but because they still have free will and are raised as the person they were when they died, not all will be able to overcome their natural personality traits.....and will not continue , even as it says in Isaiah’s prophesy. (Read Isaiah 65 to see God’s condemnation of those who offend him and his purpose to establish a “new heaven and a new earth” (not literally because there is no flaw in the originals) read from verse 17-25.)
A person could be 100 years old and still be considered a mere boy in the new earth.....and a wicked one could be put to death although he is 100 years old.
The judgment period will be one where no mistakes are made, and all judgment will be just from God’s perspective....the one who not only understands actions, but more importantly, what motivates them.

When does this judgement occur? It occurs after the Millennial Reign, during the Little Season of Rev. 20:3, when Satan is let loose to deceive the nations.

From the foregoing, it is established in the scriptures that God’s kingdom of 1000 years will bring all mankind back to the same perfect condition of body, mind and spirit that Adam and his wife enjoyed at their creation, but the majority of mankind who reach that point (the end of the thousand years) will never have had their faith tested. This is why Jehovah releases satan for one last test to ensure that rebellion will never again blight his plans for the future.

Will all those perfect people fully support Jehovah’s rule forever? Or will some prove to be like Adam and Eve—who despite being perfect became unfaithful due to the devil’s influence? These questions will need to be answered....so God allows the devil one more shot before he sends him and his cronies to “the lake of fire”, “prepared” for them, as Jesus said in Matthew 25:41.

Revelation 20:7-10 tells us what the outcome will be, and this forms the basis for which Christ is then able to hand the reigns back to his Father....the rightful Sovereign over all mankind. All will have been tested as to their faithful obedience to their Creator. (1 Cor 15:20-28) Only then will God continue with his future plans...whatever they may be....it will be exciting to find out......

As you know, mankind will be perfect as Adam was and will be tried. The Kingdom Reign is an educational period, where all of mankind will learn about the Permission of Evil. During the Little Season, those who fall will have no excuse. They will die for thjeir own sins and not Adamic sin, because Jesus paid the ransom for Adam.

Again, the righteous and the unrighteous.

So, we agree! LOL

Almost....a few important details are missing in your scenario I believe.

 

[Johann]

I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.

I don't, as it stands written, Perfect Tense.
J.

 

[Johann]

Not so.....the word “mnēmeiois” translated as “memorial tombs” is completely justified....explained this way.....
“Concerning the Greek words used to refer to a burial place or tomb, A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (1932, Vol. V, p. 87) states: “Taphos (grave) presents the notion of burial (thapto, to bury) as in Matt. 23:27, mnemeion (from mnaomai, mimnesko, to remind) is a memorial (sepulchre as a monument).”
Related to mne·meiʹon is the word “mneʹma”, which appears to have a corresponding meaning, referring also to “a memorial or record of a thing or a dead person, then a sepulchral monument, and hence a tomb.”—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 2, p. 173.”

Ag man, it warms my heart to see someone else quote a secondary source such as A.T. Robertson, and ole Vine's, what about Marvin Vincent?
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.

A man you might be interested in hearing speak - Edward Fudge. He passed on now but you can find a lecture or two of his about eternal torment on YouTube.

 

[Patrick1966]

A man you might be interested in hearing speak - Edward Fudge. He passed on now but you can find a lecture or two of his about eternal torment on YouTube.

Thanks. I'll give him a listen!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks. I'll give him a listen!

Here’s the one that helped me so much to solidify what I already suspected but just couldn’t articulate.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ag man, it warms my heart to see someone else quote a secondary source such as A.T. Robertson, and ole Vine's, what about Marvin Vincent?
J.

Did you have a comment about what they said about the condition of the dead, Johann?
The word does not simply mean the burial of the dead in a grave...it carries the meaning of a memorial....someone to be remembered, which is what a tomb does....it usually identifies the one(s) “sleeping” in death, does it not?

What is the point of a tomb with one’s name and lineage, if not to be remembered in the resurrection? The Jews had no belief in an immortal soul from their scripture....it came from pagan sources. There is not a single sentence in the whole Bible that says that the soul is immortal......Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Everlasting life, which was held out to all humanity in the beginning, meant living forever on earth in mortal flesh, but it was conditional.....as long as they obeyed their Creator they had access to “the tree of life”.....(Gen 3:22-24)....”living forever” in mortal flesh is not “immortality”, because “immortal” means that you “cannot die”.....God clearly stated that the penalty for disobedience was “death”....a “return to the dust”.

It’s not a difficult equation surely...?

 

[TLHKAJ]

I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.

We don't have a right to instruct God. If we choose not to believe His Word, that is our choice.

Our loving Heavenly Father has given every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12:3) It is our choice whom we will serve. He has done everything short of forcing us to serve Him.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
[19]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20]That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15
[15]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2
[1]We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
[2](For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Ezekiel 33:11
[11]Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Pay careful attention to John 3:18-19 below. This is where Jesus Himself defines "the condemnation." It can be noted that the word translated "condemnation" in the KJV, in the Greek, also means "judgment, damnation, or accusation."

John 3:14-19
[14]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

2 Peter 3:9-14
[9]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Matthew 10:28
[28]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We don't have a right to instruct God. If we choose not to believe His Word, that is our choice.

I’m not understanding this response. Are you meaning to say that by this man saying he is having trouble believing God will torture billions upon billions of people forever, with never the mercy of any relief or cessation of severe agony , and is considering and looking into it (like a berean) to see if it might be wrong teaching, because he is having trouble believing what men say of his Lord and his God concerning this, that he is then trying to instruct God and choosing to not believe God?
That was a question.

 

[Keturah]

Oh poooooh.

There is NO excuse to NOT understand God's word!
Unless you do not live, walk, and let the Spirit lead !
Then you are either a baby or stunted on growing in God.
Or last you are lost,without God ,undone, blind, still he is WAITING for the choice.

Everyone has access to Internet,even those who live on the street. The word is readily accessable today

 

[Aunty Jane]

Talk about the elephant in the room....there is an elephant in these verses...can I point him out?
Unless I do you will probably never see past what you think these verses say.....

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
[19]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20]That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

What did God set before his people? "Heaven or hell"? or "Life or death? Where were they to dwell?...in the land God gave to their forefathers....was that heaven? Did the Jews ever have a belief in going to heaven? No they did not. They were never taught about "heaven or hell" as opposite destinies.

Ezekiel 33:11
[11]Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Again we have "life or death" put before God's people....the death of the wicked is not eternal torture, but the end of life....period.

Pay careful attention to John 3:18-19 below. This is where Jesus Himself defines "the condemnation." It can be noted that the word translated "condemnation" in the KJV, in the Greek, also means "judgment, damnation, or accusation."

Yes, the word is "krisis" and it means....

"κρίσις, κρίσεως, ἡ, the Sept. for דִּין, רִיב (a suit), but chiefly for מִשְׁפָּט; in Greek writings ((from Aeschylus and Herodotus down))
1. a separating, sundering, separation; a trial, contest.
2. selection.
3. judgment; i. e. opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right and wrong" (Strongs)

There is no such thing as "damnation" with the connotation placed on it by Christendom. It is simply a judgment where the separation of people is made, and the criteria for that separation is stated in the scriptures.... for God's ancient people, it was strict adherence to his laws and for the disciples of Christ, it was adherence to the teachings of his son in all things.

John 3:14-19
[14]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Again, what does it mean to "perish"?
"Eternal life" is the opposite of "eternal death"...that is what it means to perish. It means to be erased from existence. No hell of eternal punishment is ever mentioned in the Bible....like Adam, the wicked just go back to the dust, never to be remembered again. God does not need to punish the wicked with life when he told them that they would die. In order to be punished with eternal torment, they would have to be granted eternal life.....do you see?

2 Peter 3:9-14
[9]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

There it is again......"PERISH".....The Greek word is "apollymi" and it means...
"ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish."
It doesn't mean to suffer in hell. It means to lose your life forever.

Matthew 10:28
[28]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your KJV has let you down again....What happens in "hell" (translated from "Gehenna") is again the "destruction"of body and soul. No more person....gone, eliminated from existence......there is no such place as "hell".....sheol and hades are Bible words for the common grave of all mankind from which Jesus will resurrect all the dead. (John 5:28-29)

"Gehenna" is eternal death....that is the only situation of the wicked who will never see life again. It means no resurrection.

 

[amigo de christo]

Beliefs about Disney World aren’t indicative of Disney World. Beliefs are beliefs. Going to Disney world dispels all beliefs about what it was.

Well once one ends up in the lake of fire its gonna be too late . I had rather warn them now
to repent and believe in CHRIST JESUS , so as they dont end up in that lake of fire they dont think is real .
Better to do something now , than to sit and watch folks head down the wrong path .
Re read the warning given near the end of revelation .
He who adds too or takes from this book . Guess what , the lake of fire is mentioned in that book
and who goes to it is also mentioned . Dont be trying to take the lake of fire from that book
do not reap destruction unto yourself . rather PREACH JESUS . cause if one HAS CHRIST they wont never ever go to that place .
But dont omit it as though it dont exist . JUST preach JESUS to them . The solution
is not to omit the severity of GOD , rather preach both the goodness and severity of GOD .
THERE is one easy way out of the wrath of GOD , HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST . preach HIM and not falsehoods .

 

[amigo de christo]

Keturah and others , Is it just me or does it seem like this generation is huge on preaching
another goodness , another love of God . YET it is mute when it comes to the preaching of JESUS .
Instead of preaching CHRIST as the only means whereby to be saved
they preach this other love , so called love that says GOD IS LOVE there is no lake of fire .
YET they wont preach the true love of GOD which says , FOR GOD so loved the WORLD
that HE SENT JESUS HIS SON that all who DO BELIEVE WOULD BE SAVED
and those who do not will be damned . Rather odd this other love wont POINT TO JESUS
and instead makes GOD contradict his own word and warnings about such a place as teh lake of fire .
Rather odd , to me that sounds like the lie of the serpent .
One can almost hear him say , HAS GOD really said that YE must believe in CHRIST to be saved .
And one says , OH YES , WE must believe in JESUS CHRIST in order to be saved .
And then the serpent says , SURELY YE SHALL NOT DIE if ye deny CHRIST
FOR GOD is love he says , HE wont damn any one . THERE is no lake of fire
BELIEVE as thou wilt and all will be well . AND THE CHURCH BOUGHT THE LIE .
GOD IS LOVE . that is TRUE , but when one preaches a love that contradicts the love and truth of GOD
IT AINT LOVE they preaching its the hate of satan who has decieved them into a lie they be preaching . but they think its love .
NO it aint . LOVE would warn a soul . LOVE would not desire a soul to perish . THUS it would speak truth and not lies
nor give false comfort in a lie .

 

[-Phil]

Well once one ends up in the lake of fire

This is what’s meant by the Disney World analogy. You haven’t experienced the ‘lake of fire’ that you’re talking about.