I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

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NotTheRock

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And let's remember that, when Jesus was tempted by Satan, Jesus responded "It is WRITTEN..." every time to Satan.

I believe what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I will stick with the original Bible as compiled by the early church, before they went off the rails.
 

Runningman

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And let's remember that, when Jesus was tempted by Satan, Jesus responded "It is WRITTEN..." every time to Satan.

I believe what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I will stick with the original Bible as compiled by the early church, before they went off the rails.
The "early church" went off the rails fast as the gospel went around to different cultures. It went from strict monotheism to something that resembles paganism and it has survived to the present day.
 
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Josho

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If you deal with Catholics, regarding theology......you will find that they disregard the bible as no better than "secondary." as compared to their "Church Fathers" and "Catholic Traditions"...
So, that is something man made that is nullifying the Bible, as the BIBLE is either the Final Authority for the Church, or its not.

Paul says this about the "Cult of Mary" and similar.

"Your TRADITIONS have made the word of God , of NONE EFFECT".

"None Effect" means.....it has no authority.

God says that the Bible, the word of God "endures forever".

The longest chapter in the Bible is completely about the wonder and power and righteousness of the "word" of God.

And notice.......""" For Thou (God) has magnified His word......above His NAME".

So, when you find "bible correctors" and cults that dont agree with the Bible as the final authority, then get out of that cult, and do not listen to these deceived people.
Now I am not saying they have got everything right, they don't have everything right like other denominations don't have everything right.

However they do manage to back up most of their beliefs, practices and traditions with scripture, which you will find they do if you look into the Catholic Catechism.

However as we all know man has the ability to take scripture and misinterpret it, this is why there are so many denominations.

With that being said, the main thing is having Jesus in your life, no matter what denomination you are from, it's not about how perfect you are or how much better you are, no one is perfect, it's about accepting God's grace and acknowledging Him Jesus as the Lord and Saviour of your life.

Abraham wasn't perfect, David wasn't perfect, Moses wasn't perfect, Apostle Peter wasn't perfect, Matthew the tax collector wasn't perfect. It is not about perfection or being better than another, however they all had one thing in common, they all acknowledged and accepted the Lord God Almighty.

I don't know why some have an obsession with criticizing Catholics, if you are going to criticize them, you may as well criticize Anglicans, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians too.

There is not one perfect denomination.
 

NotTheRock

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I don't know why some have an obsession with criticizing Catholics, if you are going to criticize them, you may as well criticize Anglicans, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians too.
The Catholic Church teaches a works-based salvation that is obviously different from what the Bible teaches. Hence, my questioning as to whether or not Catholicism is Christian or something else.
 

NotTheRock

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I asked Grok what the Catechism teaches regarding salvation. Here is its response.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) provides a comprehensive teaching on salvation, rooted in Catholic theology. Below is a concise summary of its key points:1. Definition and Purpose of SalvationSalvation is the fulfillment of God's plan for humanity, which is to share in His divine life through grace. It involves liberation from sin and death and communion with God in eternal life (CCC 1023, 169).The ultimate goal of salvation is eternal union with God in heaven, where the faithful experience the Beatific Vision (seeing God "face to face") (CCC 1028).2. Jesus Christ as the Source of SalvationSalvation is accomplished through Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who through His life, death, and resurrection redeemed humanity from sin (CCC 606-618).Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is the unique and definitive means of salvation for all people (CCC 1741). He is the "one mediator between God and men" (1 Timothy 2:5; CCC 1544).The Paschal Mystery (Christ’s passion, death, resurrection, and ascension) is central to salvation, as it reconciles humanity with God (CCC 571-573).3. Role of GraceSalvation is a gift of God’s grace, freely given and unmerited by human efforts (CCC 1996-2000).Grace is received primarily through the sacraments, especially Baptism, which initiates a person into the life of grace, and the Eucharist, which nourishes it (CCC 1129, 1131).Humans cooperate with grace through faith and good works, but salvation is ultimately God’s initiative (CCC 2001-2002).4. Faith and WorksSalvation requires faith in Jesus Christ and adherence to His teachings (CCC 161-162).While faith is essential, it must be lived out through charity (love) and good works, which are fruits of grace (CCC 1814-1816, 1821).The Catholic Church rejects the notion that salvation is by "faith alone" or "works alone," emphasizing the synergy of faith and works (CCC 2007-2010; cf. James 2:17).5. The Church’s RoleThe Catholic Church is the universal sacrament of salvation, instituted by Christ to continue His saving work (CCC 774-776).The Church dispenses the means of salvation (Scripture, sacraments, and teachings) and is necessary for salvation, though God can save those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel (CCC 846-848).The principle of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" ("outside the Church there is no salvation") is understood in light of God’s universal salvific will, meaning all salvation comes through Christ and His Church, even for those who are invincibly ignorant of it (CCC 846-856).6. Universal Call to SalvationGod desires the salvation of all people (1 Timothy 2:4; CCC 851).Salvation is offered to all, but each person must freely respond to God’s grace (CCC 1730, 1861).Non-Christians may attain salvation if they sincerely seek God and follow their conscience, as God’s grace can work invisibly in their hearts (CCC 847-848).7. Judgment and Eternal DestinyAt the end of life, each person faces particular judgment, determining their eternal destiny: heaven, purgatory (for those destined for heaven but needing purification), or hell (for those who freely reject God) (CCC 1021-1022).The Last Judgment will reveal God’s justice and mercy, confirming the eternal state of all souls (CCC 1038-1041).Hell is a real possibility for those who persistently refuse God’s love, but the Church does not teach that any specific person is in hell (CCC 1033-1037).8. Eschatological HopeThe Catechism emphasizes the hope of salvation, encouraging Christians to persevere in faith, prayer, and charity (CCC 1817-1821).The resurrection of the body and the renewal of creation are part of God’s salvific plan, culminating in the "new heaven and new earth" (CCC 1042-1050).Key Passages from the CatechismCCC 169: "Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother."CCC 620: "Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because ‘he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins’ (1 John 4:10)."CCC 846: "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."SummaryThe Catechism teaches that salvation is God’s gift, achieved through Jesus Christ’s redemptive work, and received through faith, grace, and participation in the sacraments of the Church. It involves a lifelong journey of cooperation with God’s grace, culminating in eternal life for those who respond to His call. While the Church is the ordinary means of salvation, God’s mercy extends to all who seek Him sincerely.If you’d like a deeper dive into specific aspects (e.g., sacraments, judgment, or non-Catholics), let me know!
 

Josho

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The Catholic Church teaches a works-based salvation that is obviously different from what the Bible teaches. Hence, my questioning as to whether or not Catholicism is Christian or something else.
However don't others from other denominations preach a works based Salvation, you cannot pinpoint this to one denomination?
 

Josho

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However don't others from other denominations preach a works based Salvation, you cannot pinpoint this to one denomination?
I am going to point out this does not include everyone from various denominations.

Some believe that you gotta speak in tongues to be born again, some believe you gotta keep the Sabbath to go to Heaven, some believe you gotta go to Church every Sunday to be saved, some believe that you can't go to Heaven if you weren't baptised.

Then there are other things, some protestants believe in cessationism and flatout deny the spiritual gifts are still active, quite a few don't believe in the trinity, some believe you must tithe 10% every week, there are a few leaders that say you gotta give them a 1000 to receive a certain blessing.

I could keep going and the list would be very very long.
 
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Triumph1300

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The only requirement is "to be born again".
All the other requirements (some over miles long) are human made.
(The thief on the cross is a prime example).
 
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David in NJ

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However don't others from other denominations preach a works based Salvation, you cannot pinpoint this to one denomination?
RCC is 'works based' attempt to be saved.

It is also the seat of satan = investigate this both from scripture and from actual pictures of the Vatican

i am a former RCC member:
1.) Conceived by practicing RCC parents = both mother & father
2.) RCC baptism as a baby
3.) RCC education - Grade school
4.) RCC Confirmation
5.) RCC practitioner
a.) RCC Confession
b.) RCC holy eucharist
c.) Rosary beads/praying to Mary
d.) All the RCC holy days participant = Christmas, Easter, Ash Wednesday, etc
e.) Praying to Saints
f.) RCC statues
g.) RCC holy water and lighting of candles

All the above could never save me or anyone from sin

Seeking Mary to intercede on our behalf before God is idolatry/sin BECAUSE it is a DIRECT refutation of God's Commandment/Will for everyone = Apostle Paul

1 Timothy 2:5
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
 
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Josho

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RCC is 'works based' attempt to be saved.

It is also the seat of satan = investigate this both from scripture and from actual pictures of the Vatican

i am a former RCC member:
1.) Conceived by practicing RCC parents = both mother & father
2.) RCC baptism as a baby
3.) RCC education - Grade school
4.) RCC Confirmation
5.) RCC practitioner
a.) RCC Confession
b.) RCC holy eucharist
c.) Rosary beads/praying to Mary
d.) All the RCC holy days participant = Christmas, Easter, Ash Wednesday, etc
e.) Praying to Saints
f.) RCC statues
g.) RCC holy water and lighting of candles

All the above could never save me or anyone from sin

Seeking Mary to intercede on our behalf before God is idolatry/sin BECAUSE it is a DIRECT refutation of God's Commandment/Will for everyone = Apostle Paul

1 Timothy 2:5
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

What is your view on a few Pentecostals out there then? A few of them do put a very big emphasis on angels and talking to angels.

Now we know angels are real, but surely an over emphasis on them could be a bit dangerous right?
 
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NotTheRock

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Then there are other things, some protestants believe in cessationism and flatout deny the spiritual gifts are still active, quite a few don't believe in the trinity, some believe you must tithe 10% every week, there are a few leaders that say you gotta give them a 1000 to receive a certain blessing.

None of those remotely compares to claiming that certain works must be done for salvation as Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is insufficient.
 
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NotTheRock

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What is your view on a few Pentecostals out there then?

The topic is the Catholic Church. Are we required to refute every other denomination in order to question the veracity of its doctrines?
 

NotTheRock

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Catholics, including myself, pray to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Ever hear of the Lord's Prayer? Jesus taught it and it begins "Our Father, Who is in Heaven...". And, the apostles were the first priests, that's what Jesus spent three years training them to be, and one of the things He gave them authority to do as His priests is forgive sins in His name:

"If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.” (Jn. 20:23)

Matthias was the first successor of one of the apostles, specifically Judas of Kerioth. Check out the Election of Matthias in the Book of Acts. The apostolic succession has continued for over two-thousand years, and Peter's newest successor is Leo XIV.

Brother, why do you believe that Jesus and the apostles FAILED?
 

NotTheRock

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"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".
2. In general, the gaining of indulgences requires certain prescribed conditions (below, nn. 3, 4), and the performance of certain prescribed works (nn. 8, 9, 10 indicate those specific to the Holy Year).
3. To gain indulgences, whether plenary or partial, it is necessary that the faithful be in the state of grace at least at the time the indulgenced work is completed.
4. A plenary indulgence can be gained only once a day. In order to obtain it, the faithful must, in addition to being in the state of grace:
 

Brakelite

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As the bible says God looks on the heart:

1 Samuel 16:7
The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

So surely he will see the heart of those members of the Catholic church who are genuinely followers of Jesus.
If they are genuine and are in a true relationship with Jesus, He will take them out of that communion,, as He has done for countless others.
 
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Josho

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The topic is the Catholic Church. Are we required to refute every other denomination in order to question the veracity of its doctrines?
The point is why single out the Catholic church? There are countless topics on the Catholic Church across this site.

Sigh why is there always such a divide and such a focus on the Catholics....

It should be about Jesus and not which denomination do you belong to.
 

NotTheRock

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The point is why single out the Catholic church? There are countless topics on the Catholic Church across this site.

Sigh why is there always such a divide and such a focus on the Catholics....

It should be about Jesus and not which denomination do you belong to.

If you're ordering me to no longer discuss Catholic doctrines I will happily oblige you and take such discussions elsewhere. Although I must ask which other doctrines you not want discussed here so that I don't again offend you.